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Terez 12-12-2015 09:50 PM

RJ's notes (series)
 
Now that it has been revealed that Taimandred killed Asmodean, and the Encyclopedia is out, I no longer feel bound to keep any secrets from the notes. And there are a ton of interesting details. I want to share them all but the problem is that I'm bound by copyright laws for this stuff so I have to summarize a lot of stuff and only quote when RJ's exact wording is crucial.

I'll start with the file that everyone's already seen the first page of, and the beggar/hot iron viewings I mentioned last year when I was going through the notes. The file is called "Notes On Books Two Through Six" and it's found in Box 4 Folder 2 at Addlestone.

After the introduction seen on page one (plus a little more along the same lines), RJ goes through a list of numbered plot points which he calls a "List of Incidents". I will summarize these here, and I will use quotes when I copy the exact words RJ used. My comments inside quotes are in square brackets; when RJ uses them, I change them to parentheses.

RJ outlines the beginning of the story which is completely different from what he eventually used. He saved his "shipwrecked" idea for his next planned series, Infinity of Heaven.

1. Rand was going to be shipwrecked "on the coast of a Blight". Note the singular: at this point in his planning, there were several Blights scattered across the land. This Blight surrounded a land that was totally isolated from the outside world. He used this idea later for pre-Luthair Seanchan: the Aes Sedai were the rulers of the city-states in this land.

Rand falls in love with one of the rulers' daughters, who is "a general in her own right". He realizes at some point in this arc that he is the Dragon Reborn. While in that land, he ends up fighting the Dark One again, and he exposes himself as a channeler, so he has to flee all the Aes Sedai, though his girl follows him and her army helps him take the Stone of Stair. (Stair became Tear, in case it wasn't obvious.)

2. RJ is vague here: "Time with the Sea Folk." He then goes on to describe what the Sea Folk are like. It's clear that, at this point, he hadn't put much thought into them at all. It also seems that he intended them to play a more important role than they did.

3. Rand's first ally after he declares himself the Dragon is Morgase, with whom he has a brief affair. This causes Galad (her son) to go over to the Shadow. Rand has some difficulties with Morgase that are reminiscent of the Daes Dae'mar issues he has later on in Tear and Cairhien. Morgase is not Elayne's mother (see below).

4. Stone of Stair is described, and the as-yet-unnamed Callandor. At this point, the prophecy "says that the Dragon will bring women bearing swords to take the fortress, and that he will remove the sword. Some think this means the Maidens of the Spear, but only a handful any longer give credence to this for a Blight separates stair from the Barrens [Aiel Waste], and few humans will willingly enter a Blight."

5. Describes an early invasion of Trollocs from the northern Blight, and how Rand gets blamed for the aftermath. This seems reminiscent of the Shadowspawn invasion during Hawkwing's time.

6. Rand is going to "heal" the male half of the Power, about which many people will not be thrilled.

7. Full quote here: "After his disastrous attempt to destroy Sha'tan, Rand is taken prisoner by the Queen of the land where he was raised, Elyn's mother. The queen wants to kill him, but Elyn manages to get the sentence commuted. As a price for this, though, Elyn is forced to pronounce the alternate sentence. Rand is blinded by hot irons and turned loose to wander as a beggar. This is the lowest point for him, when he feels that everyone, even Elyn, has abandoned him. (NOTE: he will regain his sight later.)"

8. "A sojourn with the Aiel." RJ goes on to describe the Aiel in great detail, mostly details that are already known: appearance, hardiness and endurance, role of clans and warrior societies, Maidens, their identity as People of the Dragon (which is used pejoratively by outsiders), their 2nd Age history (serving "Jeran Telamon" rather than the Aes Sedai generally). All of this is thought out in recognizable detail, even the columns ter'angreal (which was described here as a "circle of stones"), but one significant bit is different: "They call themselves the Thirteen Clans, but only twelve clans are known to outsiders." Also, RJ originally thought that the clan chiefs would be somehow Compelled to stay silent about what they saw in the ter'angreal, but that Rand would somehow find a way to break that Compulsion. Finally, Tigraine was originally "Morgase's sister who, refusing an unwanted marriage to Maric, fled into the Barrens."

9. Returning from the Barrens (Waste) Rand finds that he has more supporters now, mostly common people, but some Aes Sedai too. He goes off to defeat the Dark One.

10. "At the very end Rand will engineer his own disappearance, accompanied by some of his friends. He will leave behind another legend: that the Dragon sleeps, awaiting mankind's hour of need to rise once more."

RJ closes the file with a few paragraphs on how he intends to weave Arthur, Thor, and many other myths into a story that could conceivably be the original of all those myths, and how many of the myths in the story would obviously be distorted stories of events in the real world. Closing paragraph:

"The main thrust of the story will not be how fact becomes legend, however. Rather it will explore the nature of good and evil, of free will and the duty owed by the individual to humanity as a whole, of why and how mankind makes the choice to oppose evil, and the harm that can be done in the name of good."

Kimon 12-12-2015 10:18 PM

Has there been a definitive explanation from Harriet or Maria on why they didn't decide to include some or all of this in the Companion? I certainly don't seem to be the only one who finds this far more interesting than what they did publish as the Companion.

Terez 12-12-2015 10:37 PM

The Encyclopedia was always meant to be canon, so this kind of thing wouldn't have been appropriate to include.

fionwe1987 12-12-2015 11:32 PM

I have to say once again that the idea of Rand fighting Shai'tan unsuccessfully is hugely alluring to me. I think the biggest sense of slowness in the middle books could have been countered, and the price of Rand's darkness far better explored, in such a story.

Terez... are there early notes on the Aes Sedai from this period? Was there differences in their organization if there were entire lands separated by "blights"?

Also, I vaguely remember someone saying Egwene and Nynaeve were one person, once. Any clues on that?

ETA: Thanks for doing this, Terez. I'm hugely excited for this, not as a way of getting new facts about the series, but to gain insight into how RJ's creative process worked.

Terez 12-12-2015 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 234731)
Terez... are there early notes on the Aes Sedai from this period? Was there differences in their organization if there were entire lands separated by "blights"?

Also, I vaguely remember someone saying Egwene and Nynaeve were one person, once. Any clues on that?

All in due time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 234731)
ETA: Thanks for doing this, Terez. I'm hugely excited for this, not as a way of getting new facts about the series, but to gain insight into how RJ's creative process worked.

There will be some of both. Right now I'm doing the early worldbuilding notes, but as it goes on I'll get into later stuff with canon significance. Most of that detail was covered in the Encyclopedia, but not all.

Terez 12-13-2015 02:48 AM

The first file was clearly written before RJ had actually begun writing TEOTW. Maybe he had written a few scenes, but if he had, no doubt he had to scrap them.

The next file is called "RAMBLINGS ON FORM OF STORY" and it's also from box 4 folder 2.

You're going to catch me reevaluating a lot of my perceptions of these notes as I go along because I have by no means studied them thoroughly yet. In fact this thread is a fun way to do Round 2. (It will take many more rounds, and ins and outs, to make a thorough study.)

I think this one was probably written not long after the previous file, though the beginnings of the story are much more recognizable. He had outlined the series, and he went back to outline book 1. He got into the details and the story began to change.

(The previous file was for books 2-6. There are other, earlier files for book 1. I apologize for not giving these files in chronological order as to when they were written, but they're not labeled and I'm going to have to sort it out. So I'm going by box.)

The typed heading has "THE EYE OF THE WORLD" in the top left corner and "NOTES" in the top right, and "1." in the middle (page number). Below "THE EYE OF THE WORLD" there is a handwritten note in red ink that says "Revision 1". I'm not 100% positive but I think this is RJ's handwriting. Then, centered: "RAMBLINGS ON FORM OF STORY". Below that, left-justified: "FILENAME: RAMBLINGS".

This one is more difficult to summarize because it's not a numbered list. The opening quote is a good example of why it's clear he hadn't written the early chapters yet, and also why it's clear he was very close to doing so.

RJ's brackets changed to parentheses; brackets mine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Houses in the village of Emond's Field are arranged around a village green. (One street or two?) The houses are of wood and stone, some plastered. Only the tavern is of two stories, for the tavern-keeper and his family live above it. [...]

Interesting points:

1. Owan al'Vere, Nyneve, Egwyn, Spring Festival. Tam and Rand and Lan are the only other people with names in this file, aside from Sha'tan.

2. Owan/Bran serves his homemade ale, "though he does have a little of brandy and such from the outside." He hires out big horses and oxen. He is the tavernkeeper and Mayor, but the Mayor bit isn't mentioned until later in the file, a weird break in the narrative like he was going to make a list or something, but then he goes back to the narrative:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
The peddler is dead(?). The gleeman is gone.

Egwyn al'Vere (her father is Owan al'Vere, the tavernkeeper and Mayor).

He is not an innkeeper in this outline; RJ specifically says that he has no rooms and the peddlers and gleemen and merchants have to make their own camp or hire a barn. But when Moiraine (no name) comes, he makes a room for her, and her Warder (this term is mentioned and detailed) sleeps in Owan's stable.

3. RJ goes into detail of how Emond's Field gets news from Outside. They get it from peddlers and grain-buyers. No mention of tabac as the main crop.

4. No mention of the "Two Rivers". Just Emond's Field. (The "Two Rivers" was inspired by the geography of Charleston, and tobacco is big in South Carolina too, if not as big as in North Carolina.)

5. RJ says they get peddlers with wagons and carts no more than twice a year, and pack-peddlers come every month or two.

6. This changed: "The grainbuyers know what is happening in the city they come from (the capital of the land)..." Clearly he had not sorted out Baerlon and Caemlyn yet.

7. More orientation quotes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
The story will begin actually in the village of Emond's Field, or perhaps with Rand and Tam on the way to it. We meet some of the village people (the Wisdom, Nyneve, the tavernkeeper, the girl Rand loves, some of the village boys with whom he is friends.)

A few paragraphs later:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
On the way to the village Rand sees one of the strange riders, seemingly a man swathed in a hooded black cloak.

Then he gives all the recognizable detail of that scene. As you can see, this is something of a brainstorming file. The first quote is from p. 2, the second from pp. 3-4. The file is 10 pages.

8. The unnamed Aes Sedai is veiled.

9. RJ reminded himself to mention offhandedly at some point early in the story that Nyneve does not like Aes Sedai. And when the veiled woman and her armed companion appear, Nyneve is suspicious of them.

10. Nyneve is around 30 years old. She is a healer, and all Wisdoms are healers.

11. Blights is still plural. This comes up when the boys are trying to decide whether the armed man is a Warder.

12. The peddler tells them the False Dragon is somewhere to the north and west. (That could work for Taim, but it was Logain they heard about from Fain, and he was to the south and east.)

13. The unnamed gleeman teases the stories he will tell:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
'Anla the Wise Counselo.' [sic] 'How Len Flew to the Moon on the Back of a Fiery Eagle, and how Daughter Salia Walked among the Stars.' 'The giants, Rus and Us, who battled with huge spears of light.'

(Mosk and Merk was much better, and Merk wasn't even mentioned until TSR.)

14. Tam's sword is over the fireplace, so no premonition is required to get his sword down from the chest upstairs. Rand has never seen him actually use it.

15. Tam and unnamed wife had children of their own who had died "of sickness or accident".

16. RJ has cute ways of noting important details:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Tam had found one of their women on the slopes of the mountain (He Does Not Name Mountain).

[...]

In thier [sic] talk it comes out that the veiled woman is an Aes Sedai. She weilded [sic] Power (They Don't Know Proper Terms) against the attackers...

The underlined iterations of "they" referring to the Aiel are the same kind of thing. That whole long passage about Tam's fever dreams uses underlined "they" words.

17. Tam and wife and baby return "south" to the land of Tam's birth.

18. Tam was originally going to mention that no one "down south" would recognize their gray eyes, so Rand figures out that he is one of them, whoever they are. (They don't sound like nice people.)

19. Rand even thinks that, because Tam mentioned coming south, that the mountains were in the north, and he knows the Great Blight is to the north, so he's worried that he's some kind of Shadowspawn (not that this name is used).

20. When they get to the village, most everything goes as in the book. Just after Lan is named, there's that little blip I mentioned earlier where RJ notes that Owan is Egwyn's father, and after that blip he starts going on about how no one really thinks of Nyneve like they think of other women (we all know how that is) because she is the Wisdom.

Finally, the file ends with a handwritten page where RJ is calculating words to a line and words to a page and words to a book, long division included. He calculates that 200,000 words will be 621.20 pages.

GonzoTheGreat 12-13-2015 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234733)
6. This changed: "The grainbuyers know what is happening in the city they come from (the capital of the land)..." Clearly he had not sorted out Baerlon and Caemlyn yet.

Or maybe the grain buyers didn't bother to confuse the local yokels with such arcane details, being willing to be thought to come from the centre of power instead.

Terez 12-13-2015 05:04 AM

If that's what RJ was thinking he would have written it down.

GonzoTheGreat 12-13-2015 06:01 AM

It was intuitively obvious to the most casual reader (just like the Taigraendal thing), so RJ probably didn't think he needed to spell it out for himself.

Daekyras 12-13-2015 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234728)
Now that it has been revealed that Taimandred killed Asmodean,."

I haven't had a chance to look at the Companion so forgive me if this is mentioned in it but...when did we learn this?

Our wee fella has been ill so haven't really Been focusing any thoughts on WoT. I know T mentioned that taimendred was a real thing. And I was very happy. Could anyone link me to the revelation above?

And Terez, I know I say this all the time, but thanks for helping to increase my enjoyment of WoT .

Terez 12-13-2015 07:49 AM

Just because I'm on a roll tonight doesn't mean I'll be keeping up any kind of steady pace, by the way.

Now for the third file, a step backward in time. (Under the title this time is handwritten, double-underlined "Original". Same handwriting, probably RJ's.) A short chronology (in the real world) of the files so far (references are box/folder):

1. "THE WHEEL OF TIME: OUTLINE/BOOK ONE" 4/2
2. "NOTES/BOOKS TWO – SIX" 4/2
3. "RAMBLINGS ON FORM OF STORY" 4/2 (re: EOTW 1-7)

The new one was definitely written first. Rand is Rhys. The village is celebrating a festival but RJ asks himself "(?which one?)". We have proto-Cenn and proto-Trollocs and "Rhys's 'father'". RJ can't decide if the horse is killed by the Trollocs or if they were too poor/simple for a horse. The village Wisdom is an old woman. The unnamed tribesmen of Tam's fever dreams are horse-mounted.

At that point RJ starts to insert notes in brackets which appear to have been written in retrospect, after he'd fleshed something out further. In some cases, I wonder whether these notes were written after he'd written the other two files. For example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
[SEE REASON FOR INVASION, BELOW. REVEAL NOW, OR LATER? OR PART NOW?] He fought in the great battle before Dragonmount, where the invasion was supposedly turned back. [WAS IT IN TRUTH, OR DID THEY TURN BACK FOR SOME OTHER REASON, PERHAPS BECAUSE THEIR PURPOSE HAD BEEN CARRIED OUT?]

In "RAMBLINGS ON FORM OF STORY" RJ wrote that the Aiel were "turned back" without anything like "supposedly", but that is written kind of from Tam's POV.

This stuff kind of half-reads like a story narrative sometimes rather than non-fiction outline type stuff, kind of in the read-aloud style that is the basis for the first POV of the prologue of TGS. There is a lot of back and forth between notes style and story style, which is not surprising because RJ did storyteller mode at book signings. It came naturally to him.

Back to "OUTLINE/BOOK ONE". Tam aids in Rhys's obviously premature birth (not so in RAMBLINGS). Again, Tam's children had all died. When Rhys hears this story he has a bit of an identity crisis, and though the "gray eyes" aren't mentioned, the proto-Aiel are definitely part of Rhys's revelation.

Another NOTE TO SELF:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Arriving at the village he discovers that much of it has been burned or ruined – by, it turns out, the same sort of beings who attacked his 'father' and him. Many farms have been attacked, it turns out. [EVENTUALLY IT IS DISCOVERED THAT EVERY VILLAGE IN THE AREA AND MOST OF THE FARMS HAVE BEEN ATTACKED, WITH GREAT LOSS OF LIFE AND MUCH DESTRUCTION. When does this come out? How?]

After the "old woman" refuses to help Rhys's 'father', 'Moraine" shows up with a dude who looks young but has white hair and lined eyes. Moraine herself has "ageless beauty" and sometimes even acts like an old woman. Another note to self: "(In fact, she is how old? PERHAPS CHANGE THE BIT ABOUT ACTING VERY OLD.]"

Rhys's father dies because it is too late for Moraine to help him.

Judging by the details that follow about Rhys's internal conflicts and conflicts with Moraine, I'm guessing RJ decided later that it was unbelievable that Rhys/Rand would trust her if she had not healed his father, but there are no notes to self on that point.

Moraine's pitch to carry off the boys of a certain age is discussed with the whole village, originally suggested as a means to find out why their village was attacked. They must seek help "from _________, the city built near Dragonmount". The 'old woman' joins the party, along with "several other men and women".

The warrior teaches the boys to fight. Rhys is the best with the sword. Moraine tells a campfire story of the Dragon Reborn who is supposed to fight Sa'khan, and the prophecies that he will save them. The villagers have heard scary stories about him, and out of ignorance they name him.

"It comes out that the warrior is a Warden..." and the boys are excited. Since Rhys's father died, he thinks being a Warden would be awesome, and the other boys agree. Moraine (after a momentary hesitation) agrees to bond all of them, but the older village people put a stop to it.

They reach the city of the Power Weilders [permasic] and the "ruling council" wants to talk to all the boys.

Rhys wanders around and stumbles into a library, but he can't read and can only admire the "illuminations and drawings" (which suggests RJ had pre-printing-press books in mind). Here he meets proto-Elayne, who is the daughter of the Queen of his country and training to be a Power Weilder.

They stay in the city for some time and the princess teaches him how to read, introduces him to proto-Gawyn, and tells him that the Council has been having extended sessions discussing what to do with him and the other boys. An older Power Weilder hears this and sends her packing. Rhys goes to Moraine and she continues to be vague about why they are there.

Rhys channels. Aaaand, it's time for a quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
A woman, perhaps one of the heroines, has been assaulted by one of the Forsaken. This has taken the form of a triple rape, not only of body, but of mind and of soul. Thus the three portions of her have been fragmented and seperated. [sic] Rhys must enter another plane of existence and reintegrate her mind and her soul with each other and with her body.

Next comes the quest for the "Green-God", who is not a god, but "a construct of the Power, manufactured by men in the previous age". He dies because he joins their battle; if he leaves the "Pool of _______" he will die, but it's not clear if this was because he was tied to the Pool in some way or if he simply foresaw his end (as he eventually did in the book) coming whenever he left the Pool.

RJ was not clear on the details of his role; he wrote "Perhaps Sa'khan has attempted to 'take' the Green-God, and failed, but has then been forced to destroy him." He is also not sure about the details of their "possibly Phyrric" victory:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Perhaps the destruction of one of the Forsaken, the turning back of an army. Perhaps this, thought to be an army at first, is later seen to be no more than a recon-in-force. Perhaps it involves the creation of a battle between parts of humankind.


Terez 12-13-2015 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daekyras (Post 234738)
I haven't had a chance to look at the Companion so forgive me if this is mentioned in it but...when did we learn this?

Here.

Daekyras 12-13-2015 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234740)

Haha, I read that and it never even registered. I was just blown away at the taimendred revelation.

Terez 12-13-2015 10:02 AM

I even put it in all caps.

fionwe1987 12-13-2015 11:25 AM

Quote:

A woman, perhaps one of the heroines, has been assaulted by one of the Forsaken. This has taken the form of a triple rape, not only of body, but of mind and of soul. Thus the three portions of her have been fragmented and seperated. [sic] Rhys must enter another plane of existence and reintegrate her mind and her soul with each other and with her body.
Is this, perhaps the start of the idea that Rand will have three romantic partners?

So it appears Egwyn and Nyneve existed right from the beginning. As did Elyn. And you've also said Rand was to have an affair with Morghase (who is not Elyn's mom). I wonder if all that is a result of this piece from the older notes.

Also, seems to me the "other plane of existence" is Tel'aran'rhiod? Funny to see that the "reintegration" was supposed to be of a woman. Even though RJ never used it in the end, the idea that Rand would die and have to be stripped out of TAR was a very common theory, and one that I still think there's good evidence RJ had lined up as an alternative.

Terez 12-13-2015 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 234743)
Is this, perhaps the start of the idea that Rand will have three romantic partners?

I dunno, but I seem to recall that in another file the victim was revealed to be Nynaeve. We'll get there.

fionwe1987 12-13-2015 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234744)
I dunno, but I seem to recall that in another file the victim was revealed to be Nynaeve. We'll get there.

Interesting. That kind of did survive, right, in a much watered down manner, with Balthamel attacking her?

Terez 12-13-2015 11:46 AM

And Aginor creeping on her in her Accepted test.

GonzoTheGreat 12-13-2015 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 234745)
Interesting. That kind of did survive, right, in a much watered down manner, with Balthamel attacking her?

And with Lan fishing her out of the water, after she'd broken down her block by drowning.

The Unreasoner 12-13-2015 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234747)
And with Lan fishing her out of the water, after she'd broken down her block by drowning.

That could just be the Jonah parallels though. She never did well on ships.

Terez 12-13-2015 10:02 PM

The next file in box 4 folder 2 is a one-pager. Really, a half-pager. I wish I could just post the whole thing; it's hard to summarize because it's already so boiled down.

It's called "MISCELLANEOUS NOTES AND PROPHECIES FROM LE MORTE D'ARTHUR". The filename was "PROPHECY".

He talks about Merlin and Balin's sword, Lancelot and his son Galahad, and Lancelot killing Gawain, "the man he loves most", with the sword. Then Merlin and Nyneve and his "attempts on her maidenhood" until she sealed him up in an enchanted cavern.

The bit most worth quoting:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Nyneve fell in love with Sir Pelleas, after cruelly exposing the cold woman whom he had futilely loved tor some years.

This appears to be the essence of the Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle. Some Arthur nuts probably already knew that, but the way he worded it reveals a lot.

Finally he reminds himself that "Sangreal" is an "alternate name" for the Holy Grail. He even cites this to a page number in his copy of Le Morte d'Arthur. (I don't remember Dom commenting on this note, but I have to wonder if he was annoyed.)

At the end of the file, he was going to start a list of names, but only got as far as "Hew m[ale]".

Kimon 12-13-2015 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234762)
The next file in box 4 folder 2 is a one-pager. Really, a half-pager. I wish I could just post the whole thing; it's hard to summarize because it's already so boiled down.

It's called "MISCELLANEOUS NOTES AND PROPHECIES FROM LE MORTE D'ARTHUR". The filename was "PROPHECY".

He talks about Merlin and Balin's sword, Lancelot and his son Galahad, and Lancelot killing Gawain, "the man he loves most", with the sword. Then Merlin and Nyneve and his "attempts on her maidenhood" until she sealed him up in an enchanted cavern.

The bit most worth quoting:


This appears to be the essence of the Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle. Some Arthur nuts probably already knew that, but the way he worded it reveals a lot.

I never would have thought to connect Lan to Pelleas, but if RJ had run with that story a bit more it might have gotten interesting. The "cold woman" is variously called Arcade (early verions) or Ettarde (in Malory), so the names are pretty far from Moiraine, but Gawain tried to seduce her on Pelleas' behalf, but ended up sleeping with her himself. Moiraine hooking up with Gawyn would have been disappointing.

Balin by the way was the knight of the Dolorous Stroke that wounded the Fisher King. His name is a bit off too, but his brother's name is very close to the one he ended with - Balan.

sleepinghour 12-14-2015 06:16 AM

Thanks for the excellent write-up, Terez. This is fascinating stuff, in particular the mythological sources for the characters. :)

I think I wrote something about Lan/Pelleas once, mostly because of this quote from Le Morte d'Arthur which I found while trying to find clues about Rand's death and the three women on a boat:

Quote:

...thus was [Arthur] led away in a ship wherein were three queens; that one was King Arthur's sister, Queen Morgan le Fay; the other was the Queen of Northgalis; the third was the Queen of the Waste Lands. Also there was Nimue, the chief lady of the lake, that had wedded Pelleas the good knight; and this lady had done much for King Arthur, for she would never suffer Sir Pelleas to be in no place where he should be in danger of his life; and so he lived to the uttermost of his days with her in great rest.
The bolded part is reminiscent of Nynaeve's role in the later books, helping Rand and trying to get Rand to send aid to Lan. But for the most part, RJ reversed the original myth (which he may not have done yet at the early concept stages) or left a few faint traces that would explain why the characters might be remembered differently in future Ages. There was no real Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle, as the former two were never in love, but Nynaeve was certainly jealous of Moiraine and saw her as cold. And unlike Morgan le Fay, Moiraine was not Rand's sister, but he did call her "little sister" once in TFoH. I wish we could have seen what RJ had in mind with the three women and the boat; I suppose it could be passed off as a metaphor, but that conclusion doesn't really feel all that satisfying after years of speculating about Skimming platforms and the wounded/dead Arthur being brought to Avalon.

Terez 12-14-2015 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234764)
There was no real Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle...

Well now you're being pedantic. :p It functioned like a love triangle even though it was part platonic. Then Moiraine went and got herself involved in a love pentagram to make up for it.

GonzoTheGreat 12-14-2015 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234765)
Well now you're being pedantic. :p It functioned like a love triangle even though it was part platonic. Then Moiraine went and got herself involved in a love pentagram to make up for it.

Lemme see: Thom, Morgase, Elaida, Dena (who might not count on account of being dead), Mada, Saal, Elayne (only when drunk) and Moiraine. Seem to be too many for a proper pentagram to me.

fionwe1987 12-14-2015 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234766)
Lemme see: Thom, Morgase, Elaida, Dena (who might not count on account of being dead), Mada, Saal, Elayne (only when drunk) and Moiraine. Seem to be too many for a proper pentagram to me.

:eek::confused:

fionwe1987 12-14-2015 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234764)
The bolded part is reminiscent of Nynaeve's role in the later books, helping Rand and trying to get Rand to send aid to Lan. But for the most part, RJ reversed the original myth (which he may not have done yet at the early concept stages) or left a few faint traces that would explain why the characters might be remembered differently in future Ages. There was no real Moiraine-Lan-Nynaeve love triangle, as the former two were never in love, but Nynaeve was certainly jealous of Moiraine and saw her as cold. And unlike Morgan le Fay, Moiraine was not Rand's sister, but he did call her "little sister" once in TFoH. I wish we could have seen what RJ had in mind with the three women and the boat; I suppose it could be passed off as a metaphor, but that conclusion doesn't really feel all that satisfying after years of speculating about Skimming platforms and the wounded/dead Arthur being brought to Avalon.

Moiraine also felt a brief flash of jealousy about Nynaeve:

Quote:

To her surprise, Moiraine felt a flash of jealousy. She had never felt that before, certainly not for any of the women who had thrown their hearts at his feet, or those who had shared his bed. Indeed, she had never thought of him as an object of jealousy, had never thought so of any man. She was married to her battle, as he was married to his. But they had been companions in those battles for so long. He had ridden a horse to death, then run himself nearly to death, carrying her in his arms at the last, to Anaiya for Healing. She had tended his wounds more than once, keeping with her arts a life he had been ready to throw away to save hers. He had always said he was wedded with death. Now a new bride had captured his eyes, though he was blind to it. He thought he still stood strong behind his walls, but Nynaeve had laced bridal flowers in his hair. Would he still find himself able to court death so blithely? Moiraine wondered when he would ask her to release him from his bond. And what she would do when he did.

sleepinghour 12-14-2015 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234764)
But for the most part, RJ reversed the original myth (which he may not have done yet at the early concept stages) or left a few faint traces that would explain why the characters might be remembered differently in future Ages.

Addendum: This was mostly meant as a general statement, that RJ liked to reverse the original myths, but may also have been true of the Lan/Nynaeve relationship. In some versions of Arthurian legend, a young huntress named Nimue (also called Nyneve) was pursued by the much older Merlin, but she didn't appreciate his advances and was only interested in learning his magic. Once Merlin had taught her all he knew, Nimue got rid of him by trapping him in a cave. The age difference is the only aspect that wasn't reversed by RJ; Nynaeve is the one who pursues Lan and eventually parts way with him to learn channeling which Lan has no ability with. The Merlin/Nimue relationship is also reversed by Thom/Moiraine, Thom being an even stronger Merlin parallel. Much like Lan, Thom has no magic and is pursued by a younger woman who does. The magic is an obstacle to their relationship rather than being the only thing that binds them together. And, like Terez noted elsewhere, RJ once considered making Moiraine Amyrlin who is also a 'Merlin.' So a number of character got bits and pieces of Merlin.

KilMichaelMcC 12-14-2015 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 234743)
Also, seems to me the "other plane of existence" is Tel'aran'rhiod? Funny to see that the "reintegration" was supposed to be of a woman. .

This idea looks to me like it eventually morphed into Perrin rescuing Faile from the hedgehog-ter'angreal trap, where her soul was separated from her body and he had to find it in T'A'R to save her.

Kimon 12-14-2015 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KilMichaelMcC (Post 234775)
This idea looks to me like it eventually morphed into Perrin rescuing Faile from the hedgehog-ter'angreal trap, where her soul was separated from her body and he had to find it in T'A'R to save her.

It would fit also as an inverse with Moridin entering Finnland to rescue Lanfear, and then reintegrate her as Cyndane. Could also work with Mat and Thom entering to save Moiraine, though the reintegration works a bit better with Lanfear.

Res_Ipsa 12-14-2015 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234728)
I want to share them all but the problem is that I'm bound by copyright laws for this stuff so I have to summarize a lot of stuff and only quote when RJ's exact wording is crucial.

Fair use may be on your side. I am not an IP lawyer, but in my individual opinion, not retained and not acting as a lawyer to anyone in this community, any reproduction used to comment and disseminate should fall under fair use. Even extensive reproduction is permitted under the four part balancing test. So, in this case, I think it is less copyright infringement and more about being respectful to the copyright holder's wishes. Use your best judgment.

Great Lord of the Dark 12-14-2015 10:10 PM

Fair use
 
I concur with Res_Ispa, fair use is likely broader than the restriction you have placed on yourself. You quote the books in your sig, the other material is no different, and you could reproduce it for reasons that carry greater permissions than your sig.

In Canada, review, research, and criticism are purposes which allow fair use reproduction of a work or a portion of it. Of course, we are much more liberal, and have even allowed James Bond into the public domain. The Wheel of Time and its characters, alas, will be another 65 years.

But I prefer the way you leak it to us in drips and drabs, so we have something to look forward to! Keep up the good work!

Terez 12-15-2015 12:05 AM

The NDA I was originally asked to sign at the library said I couldn't quote/reproduce anything at all, but after some negotiation I got them to replace that bit with an "abide by Fair Use" clause.*

As you said, anything I hold back now is just something to discover later. This is only Round 2; I am basically conducting my research in public at this point. It will be messy. The notes are messy. But Round 3 will be tighter, and maybe by then someone else will have posted their own research/thoughts (maybe Linda). Dom has been posting some of his own thoughts in the comments of several threads on RAFO, particularly those on power levels.

* I think these negotiations were basically between me and Harriet, but with the head of Special Collections and Alan acting as proxies. Though the Collections head might have delegated it to the archivist after talking to us personally, and for all I know Alan had to go through Maria. I talked to Alan about this some but if I recall he didn't respond to my email until the matter in the library was settled, that matter being that the library clearly hadn't worked out the rules yet, and me being me, I wanted to share everything. On the very first day, I tweeted out a few things and then emailed Maria and Alan to bring their attention to the potential problem so that they could take the opportunity to set clear boundaries.

Terez 12-15-2015 04:26 AM

Part 5

The next file from Box 4 Folder 2 is "Name List for THE EYE OF THE WORLD". It's basically a glossary. In the spirit of giving a little more, I'll list every entry, with quotes when they're significantly different from what's in the books.

Aes Sedai
Aiel
al'Thor, Rand
al'Thor, Tam
Anla the Wise Counselor

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
cris: an object which, in the hands of a Power weilder, can allow that person to handle more Power than he or she ordinarily could. Cris (this is also the plural) come in many sizes and configurations, as well as in many degrees of Power enhancing ability. Few are know to still exist, and fewer still are in the hands of the Aes Sedai. The art of making them is lost.

Dark One, the
Deceiver, the
Dragon, the
Dragon's Fang, the

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Eye of the World, The: a pool which seems to be of the pure essence of Power, in a cavern concealed in a valley within the Blight. It is a part of myth to all but a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Forsaken, the: thirteen great Aes Sedai who went over to Sha'tan in the days of the first struggle. Through his power over death they were granted
immortality, but they thus became wholly his creatures. They were sealed away from the world along with Sha'tan. Only scholars know anything of their true
nature and origins. To the rest of humanity they are Sha'tans chief demons.

gleeman
Great Serpent, the
Green Man, the
Grim Lord, the
Heartsbane
How Anteve Cured Her Husband of Snoring
How Susa the Milkmaid Tamed Haran the Far-Walker
Lan (still with white hair etc.)
Len (Lenn)
Lisbet
Lord of the Dawn, the (Dark One!)
Lord of the Grave, the
Lord of the Ravens, the (Dark One)
Lord of the Twilight, the
Mayor

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Moraine: the Aes Sedai who finds Rand al'Thor and finally forces him to realize that he is indeed the Dragon Reborn. She is obviously not young, but she has a sort of ageless beauty. Most would think her perhaps thirty or so. In fact she is more than twice that.

Nyneve

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Ogyr: a mountain people. They are taller than other humans (though not giants by any means) and are much stockier in build. Many are lumbermen and miners, though the craft they are best known for is metal work, the making of intricate jewelry and steel of unsurpassed quality. They are an ebullient folk,
joyful, boisterous and often boastful. They live on the western slopes of mountains that border the eastern side of the Waste (SEE 'WASTE' AND 'AIEL'). Though no one considers them as warlike (wrestling matches are seemingly the extent of their violent tendancies) [sic] the Aiel do not raid over the mountains into the lands of the Ogyr as they do elsewhere.

Render of Souls, the
Salia
Serpent that Eats Its Own Tail
Sha'tan
Telamon, Jaran
to put a long handle on your axe
Trollocs

Quote:

Originally Posted by RJ
Warder: men, warriors, who are bonded to Aes Sedai, and who must obey the commands of the Aes Sedai to whom they are bonded. Normally they patrol the borders of the Blights, watching for signs that Sha'tan or the Forsaken have managed to touch the world of men once more, though occasionally they can be found in other places.. In all the centuries of their existence they have found no such signs until the story. They have other things to face, though, Trollocs and other evil things left from the war against Sha'tan and the Madness. They are given certain gifts by the Aes Sedai to whom they are bonded, through the use of the Power. They heal remarkably quickly, and they are all but immune to sickness or poison. They can survive cold or heat or lack of food or water better than other men. Most importantly, however, they can sense the taint of Sha'tan or the Forsaken. The Aes Sedai to whom a Warder is bonded will be aware of the instant of his death, though she will not be able to tell where it occurred. She will, however, know if it was violent, and if the cause was touched by the evil of Sha'tan or the Forsaken.

Waste, the
Wheel, the
White Flame, the
Wisdom

GonzoTheGreat 12-15-2015 05:39 AM

He changed "cris" into "angreal", but that's mostly a cosmetic difference, I think. Of course, I am not very good at languages, so there may be more to this than is apparent to me.

But the biggest surprise in this seems to be the Ogier. Having Loial be a Monty Python style lumberjack is definitely different from what the books depict.

Terez 12-15-2015 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234791)
He changed "cris" into "angreal", but that's mostly a cosmetic difference, I think. Of course, I am not very good at languages, so there may be more to this than is apparent to me.

In that case, I just included the whole entry so that it would be apparent to everyone that everything else was essentially the same.

sleepinghour 12-15-2015 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 234791)
But the biggest surprise in this seems to be the Ogier. Having Loial be a Monty Python style lumberjack is definitely different from what the books depict.

Great, now I can't get this song out of my head. But I'm taking you all down with me!

He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day...

GonzoTheGreat 12-15-2015 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 234792)
In that case, I just included the whole entry so that it would be apparent to everyone that everything else was essentially the same.

Well, one (me) could argue that there are a couple of noticeable differences:

- No sa'angreal equivalent is mentioned.
- The suggestion is made that any cris would work as well for male as for female Power users, whereas angreal are specific for either saidin or saidar but not both.

Nazbaque 12-15-2015 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234793)
Great, now I can't get this song out of my head. But I'm taking you all down with me!

He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day...

I don't mind the song, but the mental image of Loial in a dress hanging around in bars is giving me some serious trouble.

Terez 12-15-2015 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sleepinghour (Post 234793)
Great, now I can't get this song out of my head. But I'm taking you all down with me!

He's a lumberjack and he's okay
He sleeps all night and he works all day...

I have never watched anything Monty Python all the way through, but my friend Hoda used to sing this all the time whenever he was wearing a flannel shirt (which was almost every day that it was cold). He doesn't sing very well so I probably only have the vaguest idea how it's supposed to sound.


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