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Daekyras 09-29-2016 04:55 PM

Why lews therin?
 
So I've been doing my re - read differently this time.

In fact, I'm not reading at all. Audio books are a pretty good way to consume these for someone familiar with the series.

But something jumps out to me in "The Great Hunt"

5 different people call Rand "Lews Therin" when they meet him and chat to him.

Both hawkwing and Ishmael make reference to having fought him time after time after time.

So- after 1000s of lives, why Lews Therin? Why is that the identity that they all know? Hawkwing for example never actually met the Lews we think of as he was around a thousand years after the breaking(I think). And birgette the same.

P.s. Some of the pronunciations are not how I would do it.

It's egg - ween Dammit. Not egg - Wayne!

Rand al'Fain 09-29-2016 07:35 PM

It may have to do with it being his last life, and chatting and having a pint with Artur and gang and telling about his life as "The Dragon". And after 3000 years (yeah, I know time flows differently, but it would still be a while), I can see why they would call him as such.

As for Egwene, I've always pronounced it "Edge-ween" personally.

GonzoTheGreat 09-30-2016 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daekyras (Post 239082)
So- after 1000s of lives, why Lews Therin? Why is that the identity that they all know? Hawkwing for example never actually met the Lews we think of as he was around a thousand years after the breaking(I think). And birgette the same.

Actually, Birgitte sort of knew him (or at least, knew about him) as LTT. After all, she earned Moghedien's enmity by foiling one of her schemes during the time when LTT was leading the forces of the Light.

For all we know Hawkwing was active at the time too. Not having any stories we can tie to him doesn't prove much. Considering what happened, it would have been very easy for such stories to be lost entirely. Or maybe they only survived in Shara, or in the Land of the Madmen.

On top of that, they've spend the better part of 3,000 years waiting in TAR for LTT to be reborn. During all that time they knew he was coming but they did not know what name he would be using. Thus, they would have used the name they did know, and a habit build up during thousands of years is probably fairly hard to break.

Quote:

It's egg - ween Dammit. Not egg - Wayne!
Should've been egg - whine.

Daekyras 09-30-2016 08:26 AM

But why would they call him LT even then?
Under the same logic wouldn't they call him the same thing as his life previous to that??

Rand al'Fain 09-30-2016 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daekyras (Post 239088)
But why would they call him LT even then?
Under the same logic wouldn't they call him the same thing as his life previous to that??

Not if they had some ale with him in the Dream World after his life as LT. It's probably what they knew him as prior to him becoming Rand, and will probably refer to him as such until he dies as Rand. Then they'll call him "Rand" until he dies in his next life, as Bob the Builder.

GonzoTheGreat 09-30-2016 11:44 AM

Good point, that. Until Rand was born (or whenever his soul moved into his body), he was in TAR and his most recent life there was as LTT.

rand 09-30-2016 02:16 PM

FWIW, all the pronunciations are in the glossaries. I think it's officially "eh-GWAIN."

Daekyras 09-30-2016 04:40 PM

I dont know about this guys.

how often do these people get spun out? they are talking about having hundreds of names. Thousands of lives.

But Hawkwing IS Hawkwing.
Birgitte is Birgitte etc.

Surely Birgitte has been spun out since the age of legends?? or Gaidal Cain? But they are known by that name.

So im reading it as each of those souls has a primary identity. So my question is Why is LTT the primary for the dragon soul when effectively, if time is a wheel, he fucks up in a massive way over and over again..

fionwe1987 09-30-2016 06:54 PM

Birgitte wasn't known as Birgitte in her AoL incarnation. Wasn't her name Teadra or something?

Hawkwing certainly wasn't spun out between his last birth and now, and neither was LTT. I don't think the Wheel uses all Heroes equally. Birgitte, for instance, was there in the AoL to spoil Moggy's plans, then was born again to help found the White Tower, and for all we know had some births in the middle (I personally favor her being an Aiel Maiden in some life). Others are born rarely.

Rand al'Fain 09-30-2016 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fionwe1987 (Post 239096)
Birgitte wasn't known as Birgitte in her AoL incarnation. Wasn't her name Teadra or something?

Hawkwing certainly wasn't spun out between his last birth and now, and neither was LTT. I don't think the Wheel uses all Heroes equally. Birgitte, for instance, was there in the AoL to spoil Moggy's plans, then was born again to help found the White Tower, and for all we know had some births in the middle (I personally favor her being an Aiel Maiden in some life). Others are born rarely.

Brigitte was born just a few centuries or so before Rand and company are born. Hence the whole tower talk Mat asked her about later on in the series.

GonzoTheGreat 10-01-2016 03:38 AM

Yeah, which Hero gets spun out depends on what the Pattern needs at that precise moment. In a time like the Third Age, someone like Birgitte is very useful. But in an Age where bows and arrows aren't known or used (either because they are too advanced or because they are outdated), she will be far less likely to be called into action.

If the Dragon had been reborn at any other time in the Third Age, the results would have been fairly disastrous, I think.

Nazbaque 10-01-2016 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daekyras (Post 239082)
So I've been doing my re - read differently this time.

In fact, I'm not reading at all. Audio books are a pretty good way to consume these for someone familiar with the series.

But something jumps out to me in "The Great Hunt"

5 different people call Rand "Lews Therin" when they meet him and chat to him.

Both hawkwing and Ishmael make reference to having fought him time after time after time.

So- after 1000s of lives, why Lews Therin? Why is that the identity that they all know? Hawkwing for example never actually met the Lews we think of as he was around a thousand years after the breaking(I think). And birgette the same.

P.s. Some of the pronunciations are not how I would do it.

It's egg - ween Dammit. Not egg - Wayne!

Well first point. The Heroes hardly talk at all in the gathering scene and the only name they say is Lews Therin referring to Rand. Rand's mind attaches names to each based on stories he has heard in this life. I assume the other names are Rand's memories of waiting in T'A'R seeping through because the Horn has been sounded. We don't really know how the Heroes act in T'A'R when they are in between lives, but when the Horn is sounded they remain in this state of mind. I think there is a Valhalla of sorts within T'A'R and it might be that there everyone goes by the most recent strong incarnation and so the Heroes call Rand "Lews Therin".

Second point. I get the impression that Rand has been spun out a number of times between his life as Lews Therin and his current one, but those two are the ones he was most strongly ta'veren in so the other Heroes ignore the other names. This would apply to the other Heroes as well. The strongest effect remains over more recent ones for a long time. Rand hasn't yet been Rand for that long in the terms of Ages, but maybe in the next Age he will be called "Rand" by the other Heroes.

Third point. Rand and Hawkwing have probably met quite a few times in the time between Lews Therin's rule and Hawkwing's but in weaker forms. Quite a few but not 1000s. I believe the 1000s of lives comments refer to every turning of the Wheel since the beginning not simply the current one and the key point is that it might be that none happen when Rand is the Dragon or the Dragon Reborn or when Hawkwing is the Emperor.

Fourth point. Egwene I don't mind. Personally I just call her "the brat". However Kate's pronouncing of "Moiraine" ticks me off. Leave your French fetish out of your work damn it!

Kimon 10-01-2016 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 239099)
Second point. I get the impression that Rand has been spun out a number of times between his life as Lews Therin and his current one, but those two are the ones he was most strongly ta'veren in so the other Heroes ignore the other names. This would apply to the other Heroes as well. The strongest effect remains over more recent ones for a long time. Rand hasn't yet been Rand for that long in the terms of Ages, but maybe in the next Age he will be called "Rand" by the other Heroes.

Third point. Rand and Hawkwing have probably met quite a few times in the time between Lews Therin's rule and Hawkwing's but in weaker forms. Quite a few but not 1000s. I believe the 1000s of lives comments refer to every turning of the Wheel since the beginning not simply the current one and the key point is that it might be that none happen when Rand is the Dragon or the Dragon Reborn or when Hawkwing is the Emperor.

We got a definitive no on Guaire being a previously spinning of the Rand-anima, right?

That still would have been the easiest, and most logical way to make sense of that dialogue. Certainly it seemed what RJ was trying to get us to assume based upon that passage. Along those same lines, of sometimes fighting together, sometimes against, I wish that RJ would have just made Mat the Hawkwing-anima. That would have also made his fated marriage to the Daughter of the Nine Moons quite fitting as well.

Nazbaque 10-01-2016 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kimon (Post 239101)
We got a definitive no on Guaire being a previously spinning of the Rand-anima, right?

That still would have been the easiest, and most logical way to make sense of that dialogue. Certainly it seemed what RJ was trying to get us to assume based upon that passage. Along those same lines, of sometimes fighting together, sometimes against, I wish that RJ would have just made Mat the Hawkwing-anima. That would have also made his fated marriage to the Daughter of the Nine Moons quite fitting as well.

Kimon don't force Occam's Razor on RJ. Literature isn't logistics.

SomeOneElse 10-01-2016 01:09 PM

It caught my attention as well when reading. I think that is just because Rand knows only Lews Therin among his previous names and neither do we know any of them. And addressing him as The Dragon [Reborn] would be... To official in those cases. Maybe RJ also didn't want to repeat the word "Dragon" over and over.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 239099)
I get the impression that Rand has been spun out a number of times between his life as Lews Therin and his current one

That would have no point unless the wheel has a very limited number of souls.

Nazbaque 10-01-2016 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomeOneElse (Post 239105)
That would have no point unless the wheel has a very limited number of souls.

Why? There is a looong time in between and his lives wouldn't have been that long if he always had the spark. There could easily be 20-30 lives even with fairly long times spent in T'A'R in between.

But even if the Dragon soul is special and is only spun out once every Age, Hawkwing would be a normal Hero and capable of fighting against and along side of him multiple times in a single turning of the Wheel.

GonzoTheGreat 10-02-2016 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 239106)
Why? There is a looong time in between and his lives wouldn't have been that long if he always had the spark. There could easily be 20-30 lives even with fairly long times spent in T'A'R in between.

He would have been the Dragon Reborn. That's the problem with this idea in a nutshell.

Nazbaque 10-02-2016 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 239108)
He would have been the Dragon Reborn. That's the problem with this idea in a nutshell.

Not if the Pattern wasn't ready for him to be the Dragon Reborn. What truly makes him the Dragon or Dragon Reborn is the high level of ta'veren and that is up to the Pattern.

GonzoTheGreat 10-02-2016 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 239109)
Not if the Pattern wasn't ready for him to be the Dragon Reborn. What truly makes him the Dragon or Dragon Reborn is the high level of ta'veren and that is up to the Pattern.

No, that is what makes him an effective Dragon Reborn.

What makes him the actual Dragon Reborn is that he is the Dragon who is reborn; ie. that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon. After all, LTT was the Dragon, wasn't he?

Nazbaque 10-02-2016 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat (Post 239110)
No, that is what makes him an effective Dragon Reborn.

What makes him the actual Dragon Reborn is that he is the Dragon who is reborn; ie. that he is the rebirth of Lews Therin Telamon. After all, LTT was the Dragon, wasn't he?

Technically yes he was the Dragon and he would be reborn, but just as being the Dragon was more than simply being in the world so his being THE Dragon Reborn had more conditions to it. He is the key, but the Pattern has to weave a lock for him or he is just another person. With the potential of the Dragon yes and technically a rebirth of the same soul, but not to fully become the Dragon Reborn yet.


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