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Anaiya Sedai 02-21-2017 08:51 AM

Lan's warder bond
 
I'm pondering.
How do the mechanics work of Lan and Moiraine's bond snapping but the bond also being passed to Myrelle? Why doesn't this protect Lan from the death rage?
Surely, if the bond has been passed, then it hasn't actually broken, just the connection to Moiraine.

GonzoTheGreat 02-21-2017 10:30 AM

It is probably that it was not passed in a peaceful way. Perhaps a rock climbing analogy may help. Since I have hardly any experience in rock climbing, I've never made any big mistakes there and am thus an expert in it.

Take the bond as a safety rope holding you to rock, attached at a (supposed) strong point. Then consider the attachment to Myrelle a second rope, attached somewhere else. Normally, no tension at all would be put on this second rope. Ordinarily, if the bond is passed, the first rope gets detached from its strong point and reattached at the other point. (Or the other way around, if those pesky health and safety people are looking.) Thus, there is never any extraordinary tension on the ropes, and everything is peachy. But when Moiraine died*, the first anchor point was lost and the standard rope came loose entirely. So suddenly there was a big jerk on Lan and he was hanging by the emergency rope. In this analogy, it is the "big jerk" which triggers the death rage, and the emergency rope which makes it possible to maybe survive that.

Does this clarify things?
If so, what did I overlook?

* Or maybe didn't quite die; some debate is possible about this.

Anaiya Sedai 02-21-2017 11:44 AM

Well, supposedly the bond was broken because the link between the worlds was broken by the doorway melting. Only that the bond wasn't broken, it was disconnected and passed.

Sarevok 02-23-2017 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaiya Sedai (Post 240794)
Why doesn't this protect Lan from the death rage?

Wasn't that bond passing set into place specifically to prevent the death rage? Do we have any indication it didn't work as intended?

Anaiya Sedai 02-23-2017 07:37 AM

I'm not sure, that's sort of what I was thinking but also, Myrelle has experience saving warders from the death rage, so it could have just been that, Moiraine wanted to preserve Lan for Nynaeve because she wanted Lan to be happy

Cary Sedai 02-26-2017 10:43 PM

I haven't read it in a long time, but doesn't he sort of start to freak, but then she's gone and he just stops?

I think I should do a reread...

Terez 02-28-2017 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anaiya Sedai (Post 240812)
I'm not sure, that's sort of what I was thinking but also, Myrelle has experience saving warders from the death rage, so it could have just been that, Moiraine wanted to preserve Lan for Nynaeve because she wanted Lan to be happy

I have to wonder if Moiraine had any idea what Myrelle's methods were. Guessing not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGH22
"I have never seen you as a pet," Moiraine said sharply, "and neither does Myrelle."


Anaiya Sedai 02-28-2017 07:39 AM

No, I'm assuming she didn't. or maybe she thought Nynaeve would prefer Lan in Myrelle's bed but alive, to him having killed himself avenging Moiraine.

fionwe1987 02-28-2017 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 240879)
I have to wonder if Moiraine had any idea what Myrelle's methods were. Guessing not.

Moiraine's Cairheinin sense of propriety probably never let her imagine anything like what Myrelle did. 3 husbands is far outside Moiraine's abilities to imagine.

As for the question, this is how I understood it:

Moiraine didn't know how she might end up dying when she made the arrangement with Myrelle, so she only hoped this eventuality would come to pass when her death was unexpected and therefore did not leave any opportunity to release Lan before death. In the event, she did foresee her death, but couldn't release Lan peacefully because that would have let the cat out of the bag.

I suspect they did something to the bond to make sure that the snapping of Lan's bond to Moiraine triggered an automatic bond to Myrelle. I suspect that Lan's connection to Myrelle was there in some form even before Moiraine's death, but it exerted no force till his bond to Moiraine snapped. I suspect this was something like how Elayne and Aviendha bifurcated the bond to allow Rand to simultaneously be bonded to three women.

So when Moiraine "died", her link to Lan snapped, and that's why he felt the death rage. But his bond to Myrelle also kicked in, protecting him from it a bit, and soon after Myrelle could feel the new bond, she must have activated a compulsion to make Lan come to her with all haste.

greatwolf 03-02-2017 08:09 PM

So was Lan bonded to two AS at once? He should have noticed if he was. Unless it was masked or the bond is rather different from what we expect.
But obviously he was able to locate Myrelle and she him, almost immediately after Moiraine's bond snapped.
But AS are said to have been passing the bond when facing death for centuries(?) so it may have been a practiced craft. Especially among the greens.

Daekyras 03-03-2017 08:11 AM

I listened to that section of tFoH a couple of days ago.

Lan is ridiculously calm after the death of moiraine. Has a long conversation with rand and tells him he can feel the other woman out there to the west.

If I remember correctly he makes a bee-line for her. Just passing straight through war zones etc. He was injured when he got there. and angry.

I also don't think Myrelle took him for a "plaything". She slept with him(as Moiraine knew she would) but I never read it as a Fun time plaything. She was trying to rehabilitate him from his grief/"death rage".

Terez 03-03-2017 05:41 PM

She basically raped him, since she used the bond to Compel him.

Cary Sedai 03-03-2017 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terez (Post 240922)
She basically raped him, since she used the bond to Compel him.


Gah! You're right! I never thought about it before. :mad:

Nazbaque 03-04-2017 09:27 AM

This is just guess work on my part but what I think happened was that at some point Moiraine and Myrelle did the bond passing a part of the way attaching Myrelle to Moiraine's end of the bond but not removing Moiraine from it. Later when Moiraine went through the doorway she was able to complete the process. Her ability to do this is plausible as the passing can be performed without the Warder being present and it was supposed to happen automatically if Moiraine were to die. Afterall this was set to happen before Moiraine visited Rhuidean and got her visions of likely futures.

My second piece of guess work is on the nature of the death rage. If someone close to you dies it causes you pain. What causes this pain is not so much that the life of someone dear to you is over (though this can of course be very tragic in itself) but that their part in your own life is now over with no going back. The grief is about the void that person left behind. For Warders and Aes Sedai the void of loss is on a completely different level, but stricktly speaking actual death is not necessary just as we can believe a close person to be dead (the classic example of shipwreak survivors living on a remote island comes to mind).

Lan's bond had passed to Myrelle and he believed Moiraine was dead. Even though Moiraine was in reality still alive, Lan's experience was exactly the same as that of a Warder whose Aes Sedai had died (and had arranged the bond to pass to another upon her death which might indeed make a significant difference).

As for Moiraine not being aware of Myrelle's methods I have no doubt that she knew exactly what they were and quite probably understood why they worked better than Myrelle did. Cairhienin are all about maintaining a prim facade in public while getting to all sorts mischief in private. Myrelle's polygamy might initially shock them but I suspect that afterwards quite a few of them would think her to be something of a prude, what with her insisting on marrying a man just because she was sleeping with him.

Anaiya Sedai 03-04-2017 04:48 PM

I did wonder whether Lan's experience was more normal grief than the normal warder death rage, but I the impression I got from the descriptions of him when Egwene goes to confront Myrelle and Nisao, makee think that there is more to it,and more than the anger at being compelled and raped by Myrelle.

Nazbaque 03-04-2017 05:30 PM

"Raped" may be a bit hasty. Possible of course, but we don't actually know the details. Lan was not in a calm and rational state of mind so making a choice he regretted later was entirely possible.

Davian93 03-04-2017 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 240941)
"Raped" may be a bit hasty. Possible of course, but we don't actually know the details. Lan was not in a calm and rational state of mind so making a choice he regretted later was entirely possible.

I would imagine Myrelle used compulsion on at least some level...so it would likely be considered rape in a legal sense.

Granted, it was "for his own good" in her mind but its definitely a moral gray area.

Nazbaque 03-04-2017 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 240942)
I would imagine Myrelle used compulsion on at least some level...so it would likely be considered rape in a legal sense.

Granted, it was "for his own good" in her mind but its definitely a moral gray area.

Legally yes. There are crimes that are more about risky behaviour that could have caused serious harm rather than actually doing so. Traffic violations for example.

I guess it depends on how the victim feels about it. If Lan didn't feel violated, then that's at least a lesser form of rape. Something like the difference between murder and attempted murder, though this largely depends on how one defines rape. Is it the act or the harm that matters?

Davian93 03-04-2017 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nazbaque (Post 240943)
Legally yes. There are crimes that are more about risky behaviour that could have caused serious harm rather than actually doing so. Traffic violations for example.

I guess it depends on how the victim feels about it. If Lan didn't feel violated, then that's at least a lesser form of rape. Something like the difference between murder and attempted murder, though this largely depends on how one defines rape. Is it the act or the harm that matters?

I definitely agree its one of those great moral questions...she's doing a bad thing for a good purpose. I'm sure he didn't mind it too bad...though I'd imagine that Nynaeve was a little pissed.

Terez 03-04-2017 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davian93 (Post 240942)
I would imagine Myrelle used compulsion on at least some level...so it would likely be considered rape in a legal sense.

Granted, it was "for his own good" in her mind but its definitely a moral gray area.

She was shown using Compulsion from the very beginning, so it's not a huge mystery; we know she used it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOC 52
"Be quiet," Myrelle hissed. In a louder voice, she called, "Come to me." The horse did not move. A wolfhound mourning his dead mistress did not come to a new mistress willingly. Delicately she wove Spirit and touched the part of him that contained her bond; it had to be delicate, or he would be aware of it, and only the Creator knew what sort of explosion might result. "Come to me."



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