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Old 05-04-2010, 02:36 AM
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Terez Terez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowbaneX View Post
Anyway, my amusement aside that you used one of my factions in your theory and more so by saying that it's a popular theory, (in fact there's only a few people that are in the faction and I think most of them have probably forgotten about it by now), I still find this theory hard to accept.
Do you even have a premium account any more? Because I am pretty sure I have tried to join that faction twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Ok, I can perhaps see that Mat will be willing to give up his amulet, perhaps, maybe, sorta, it could be part of the no iron rule maybe.
I don't think it will be connected to the iron rule. Silver isn't iron. I gave better reasons for him leaving it with Elayne in my theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Assuming that happens, it only prevents direct channeling. It won't help lightning bolts called from the sky, exploding ground or collapsing buildings, or possibly even fireballs (it's possible that they unweave when they get to him, but they could still, you know, explode right beside the wearer, so not that helpful.
Gawyn need not know this, and even if he does, it's still better than nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Now, Occam's Razor/KISS says there's a much simpler way for Gawyn not to have to worry about Rand's channeling, something much more convenient to the plot and that's Rand's...whatever it is when he tries to take hold of the source. If they go blade to blade he likely won't have the time to take the source because it would cause him to put too much effort/concentration into it and that would leave him open to a blow.
1. Gawyn has no idea about Rand's problems with channeling.

2. I doubt Rand won't already be holding the Power when Gawyn finds him. It's a huge battle, against an army with damane.

3. Without the medallion, the Mat 'betrayal' isn't explained, nor is the Judas parallel complete. This is the only way for Mat to 'betray' Rand with the silver. I can't see any other way to make the Judas parallel complete. Can you? A good few bits of the Judas parallel have already been laid down: Mat's Portal Stone lives, and the whole scene in Rhuidean, with Mat being hanged. RJ said he liked to 'reverse-engineer' his myths and such, but it doesn't make any sense for him to link Mat to Judas if he's not going to somehow contribute to Rand's death. There is good foreshadowing for both Mat's 'betrayal' and Gawyn's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
With that in mind your scenario for having Alivia helping Rand die isn't even needed and is rather unnecessarily complex.
It's not complex at all. It's a totally random and easily believable scenario that just so happens to encompass every aspect of Alivia's character: her desire to kill Seanchan, her role as the mean killing machine with all the cool toys (she likes to play children's games), and the fact that we know she will help Rand die. That is as simple as it gets.

All the other theories assume that Alivia is going to help Rand die in some way that is not supported by the previous development of her character at all. Mine pretty much sums her up, head to toe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's also the possibility that Rand has the channeling sickness that wilders sometimes get and he might well waste away and die from that, but, that's another theory.
He could die any number of ways, but are those ways supported by evidence? How is Rand wasting away 'elegant'? Sounds pretty freaking boring and dumb to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's also the fact that one of the driving reasons for Gawyn killing Rand is Morgase, and with it now being known, at least to Perrin and co, it's quite possible that Morgase could be returning to Andor, well, if that happens, Gawyn's reasons for killing Rand evaporate and it's more likely for Morgase to wind up in Caemlyn than for Gawyn & Rand to wind up there.
I addressed that in my theory. This is what everyone believes will happen, but I don't think RJ is going to do it like we expected. Morgase will never make it to Caemlyn. She'll probably be nearby enough for extreme irony, but she will not make it in time to prevent Rand's death.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Like I said, it's an interesting idea and you might be right about some things, but there are alot of "if's"...IF Mat leaves behind his amulet and IF it winds up in Alivia's hands and IF Gawyn is there to pick it up and IF Rand winds up in Caemlyn and IF there's no one else around, because if there's anyone around they're probably going to try and stop it...etc, etc, etc.
You make it sound as if it is just a long random chain of ifs....but it isn't. They are all supported by evidence.

Mat leaving his medallion with Elayne is foreshadowed in Lord of Chaos, and again in A Crown of Swords. It is also foreshadowed by the Judas parallel, and the bits of it that have already played out.

The medallion ending up in Alivia's hands is foreshadowed by her desire to fight the Seanchan, by the fact that she has been given ter'angreal to fight with all along because she is strong and skilled in battle, and also by the fact that Alivia has to help Rand die. It's further backed up by the Mat-Judas parallel.

Gawyn being there to pick it up is supported by the fact that he is the First Prince of the Sword, and by the foreshadowing of his violent death, and the foreshadowing of his betrayal, and it's strengthened even further by Arthurian parallels.

Rand being there in Caemlyn is supported by the Camlann parallel, and by both of Elaida's Foretellings concerning Andor. She Foretold that 'From this day Andor marches toward pain and division....Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it.' I believe that she meant that he was personally at the heart of the pain and division, and also that he physically stood at the heart of the pain and division that would culminate in the Battle of Caemlyn - the final battle between Randland and the Seanchan, and the place of Rand's death. I believe that her Foretelling about the royal line of Andor includes Gawyn. Rand's death is also necessary.

I never said that Rand would be alone, and I've given plenty of reason why he doesn't even have to be alone for there to be a duel between him and Gawyn. Also, both of Rand's never-healing wounds were precipitated by a duel between him and another blademaster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Also, minor nitpick here, your "Darkness fits the sun" is a bit of a stretch.
It's foreshadowing. It might be a stretch if it weren't connected to so many other pieces of evidence, but it is, so it isn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
It's more of the idea that Egwene believes that Gawyn cannot betray anything, the light and dark imagery are just to make a point, the sun is the primary source of light and it would be impossible to imagine it as a source of darkness.
Yes dear, I know what Egwene meant. Foreshadowing works like that: a more profound meaning is hidden beneath the obvious meaning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Also, I think you're thinking too literally, too much of a direct copy of our mythos.
It's not a direct copy at all. If it were a direct copy, there wouldn't be so many Mordred parallels, for example. Mat wouldn't be both Odin and Judas. King Arthur wouldn't be both Rand and Artur Hawkwing. The Battle of Camlann would be just one battle, rather than Falme, the Battle of Cairhien, the Cairhienin rebel camp, the Battle of Caemlyn, and who knows how many other things all tied up together. If Rand was a direct Arthur parallel, then he would stay dead, only to be seen in the forest with his hunting dogs, or maybe called back to lead his armies via the Horn. But Rand will come back to life for real. If Rand was a direct Jesus parallel, he'd come back to life only to disappear into heaven again. But Rand is most likely going to come back to stay, as a human, and not as an immortal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
Most of us believe that there's going to be a battle in and or around Caemlyn, but why must Rand & Gawyn be there? I mean Rand is on Dragonmount and Gawyn is in Tar Valon. It would be a thousand times simpler just for them to have a confrontation there, rather then hauling them all the way back to Caemlyn for it to happen.
I believe I have covered all of these questions already. The theory that Rand will die on Dragonmount is pretty loony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SBX
There's just too many other, more elegant ways that this can play out
You are babbling. You said that three times, so I pared it down. Why should Rand's death be 'elegant'? What makes your scenarios any more 'elegant' than this one? RJ has been reverse-engineering legends for the whole series, and you just now want to take objection to it because Terez has a theory that makes a lot of sense? I'll be sad for you when the book comes out.
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