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  #1  
Old 12-25-2010, 03:03 AM
Murphyhomer Murphyhomer is offline
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Default A Lily in Winter

Hi guys, this is my first time posting. I don't usually post in forums, but i would just like get an answer from a knowledgable WoT community that may save me a whole lot of time in deciding whether I want to finish the series or not.

I started reading the series last year and it soon became one of my favorites. However, some big issues started appearing after around Shadow Rising or so, and long story short, I have become thoroughly disgusted by Robert Jordan's portrayal of both relationships and women in general.

For a while this wasn't enough to get me off the series as the overarching story is just so enthralling, but I came to a boiling point after reading the chapter "A Lily in Winter" from the book Winters Heart.

For those that may not recall, this is the chapter in which Elayne, Min, and Avhienda all bond Rand as their warder and Elayne does a little something more as Min and Avhienda leave them to their privacy. This eventually leads to Elayne becoming pregnant.

I always tried to convince myself that this four-way marriage deal would find a way to die out over time, but this has made me extremely pessemistic. What grates on me most is that the three women involved are completely fine with sharing one man, and Mr. Jordan tries to explain everything through his ta'veren plot gimmick. I am not much of a femenist, but it just sickens me that three strong female characters can be collected and made a part of a glorified harem and not have any problems with it.

Ok, enough with the rambling. What I am trying to ask is, without revealing too much in the way of spoilers, can anyone tell me if this is the way this relationship will continue to be carried out, because if it is, I do not think I can stomach five more books of awkward misogynistic garbage.

Thanks in advance
  #2  
Old 12-25-2010, 03:29 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
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As to your question, read the book, between all of the foretellings from Min and the POVs from the characters themselves, can you honestly say you think this relationship will end? Especially after them bonding him?

As to your other postings, if you think "being ta'veren" is a plot gimmick then why do you even bother with this series? Most of the stuff that happens around the main characters is because of this "plot gimmick." The truth of the matter is that Rand needed a way to be connected to both the wetlands AND the Aiel AND he needs someone like Min close to him to help him with the philosophical riddles of the pattern and such. The pattern, or I guess you could say Jordan himself thought it would be an interesting idea to write it like this. You don't have to agree with everything that happens in a book, thats the point! Some stuff can frustrate you, other stuff can outright disgust you but you still read because its a book, its not real, its just a story that can make you think outside of what you consider normal.

Now, about your claim of "misogynistic garbage," I honestly think its pretty laughable. This is a storyline set in a world where there is no discrimination towards women. In fact, most women in the story strongly abuse the men (Matt getting raped by the Queen, Perrin having to deal with an abusive wife, etc)! Also, the most powerful organization in the world is 100% women and most of the governments have queens or women in high places.

Also, I have never heard of a harem in which the women have more control over the man! Just look at the Aiel marriages!

Sorry if this was a bit harsh, but I think you are getting too upset over nothing really

Last edited by Cortar; 12-25-2010 at 03:31 AM. Reason: typo
  #3  
Old 02-19-2012, 10:26 AM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Originally Posted by Cortar View Post
As to your question, read the book, between all of the foretellings from Min and the POVs from the characters themselves, can you honestly say you think this relationship will end? Especially after them bonding him?
I did. Min made it quite clear in the early books. All three of these women would fall in love with Rand at some point but that didn't mean he would end up with any of them. I was expecting him to have three sequential monogamous relationships.


Quote:
As to your other postings, if you think "being ta'veren" is a plot gimmick then why do you even bother with this series? Most of the stuff that happens around the main characters is because of this "plot gimmick." The truth of the matter is that Rand needed a way to be connected to both the wetlands AND the Aiel AND he needs someone like Min close to him to help him with the philosophical riddles of the pattern and such. The pattern, or I guess you could say Jordan himself thought it would be an interesting idea to write it like this. You don't have to agree with everything that happens in a book, thats the point! Some stuff can frustrate you, other stuff can outright disgust you but you still read because its a book, its not real, its just a story that can make you think outside of what you consider normal.
I think his complaint centres around the fact that a love story has to feel genuine and saying "all of this happened because the Pattern/Fate made it happen" detracts from that because it removes some of the humanity from the characters. They become cardboard cut-outs.

There is a big difference between "the Pattern will put Min in a situation and then she has to choose how she's going to get out of it" and "the Pattern will put Min in a situation and then determine what she does to get out of it." When you make the Pattern's influence that strong, you elevate it from simple fate to a kind of brain-washing. Min is a computer program who will act upon the instructions given to her. She is a pawn on a chessboard, a doll made to act out a script.

And that is BORING.

The problem with Rand's harem is that, when you really think about it, each of these women is acting against her own best interests, acting against the ingrained biological drives that make someone human. Primates don't share their mates, not willingly anyway. And when they do have to share, there is always some animosity between the ones doing the sharing. Elayne and Aviendha shouldn't love each other; they should be suppressing the urge to slit each other's throats.

Now, you can say that do to the cyclic time, these people are not the product of millions of years of competitive evolution - and that's fine - but when you do that, you've changed these characters from human beings into creatures that resemble human beings.

A lot of people have mentioned the very palpable chemistry between Mat and Elayne and I have to say that would have made for a much more interesting story. "Three women will love Rand but that doesn't mean he will love them back." Now, suppose that one of these girls realizes that she's the one who got passed over. How would she deal with that? That would have been a compelling emotional story because it's something we can all relate to. Love doesn't always go the way we want it to and we all have to deal with the pain of not getting what we want.

And that's the biggest problem with using the Pattern as justification for these relationships. Since we know two characters are destined to be together, there's no risk, no tension and no reason for the reader to get emotionally invested in the outcome.

So, imagine if Elayne realized one day that Rand just didn't love her back. Not the way he loves Min. How would she come to terms with that? Watching her get through the pain and then move on would have been compelling because that would be ACTUAL character development. One day, she'd realize that she was over Rand and that would leave her in a position of strength. Suddenly, her life becomes "Where do I go from here?"

So, it's Festival of Birds in Ebou Dar and Elayne has been working with Mat for the last few hours, planning a search pattern for the Bowl of Winds. He talks her into going down to the festival because he wants a drink and she reluctantly agrees. They share a dance and Elayne is surprised to realize that she's actually having a good time.

A few cups of wine later, they're flirting and laughing when Mat suddenly kisses her. Elayne is frightened at first but she eventually thinks to herself. "Oh, blood and ashes, I've been through enough in the past year. I deserve a little fun!" And before she knows it, she's kissing him back.

They have a one night stand and Elayne does the walk of shame the next morning. As she quietly dresses and flees Mat's room at the Wandering Woman, she chastises herself. "I'm a horrible person. I can't believe that I just used a man for my own needs. I'm worse than Mat Cauthon ever was."

Elayne wants to put the whole ordeal behind her but Mat wakes up to realize that he's smitten. He starts showing up at the Tarasin Palace with flowers, looking for excuses to have quiet conversations with Elayne when no one is looking. You see, it's perfect symmetry because this is also massive character development for Mat. For the first time in his life he's the one who's been swept off his feet. For the first time in his life, he's helpless under someone else's charms and he has no clue how to deal with it.

THAT makes for a compelling emotional story.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.

Last edited by Seeker; 02-19-2012 at 10:50 AM.
  #4  
Old 02-20-2012, 05:05 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
The problem with Rand's harem is that, when you really think about it, each of these women is acting against her own best interests, acting against the ingrained biological drives that make someone human.
You are not fit for a career in politics. Or you are, of course, if you're being dishonest here.

Elayne is getting what Berelain tried to get: a clear tie of a female ruler to the greatest source of authority of the entire Age. Compared to her mother's first marriage, that is a very big step up.
Aviendha is setting herself up as one of the most influential Wise Ones alive, and, if she doesn't get herself killed nor makes a very big mistake, she can then enjoy that position for centuries to come.
Min had the choice between being a waitress in a rural backwater, or being a royal consort with solid ties with some of the most powerful women on Earth.

For which of them was this against their "own best interests" and why?

Quote:
Primates don't share their mates, not willingly anyway. And when they do have to share, there is always some animosity between the ones doing the sharing. Elayne and Aviendha shouldn't love each other; they should be suppressing the urge to slit each other's throats.
Depends a bit on the species of primate.
Bonobo women, for instance, seem to have greater attachment to each other than to their males. As a result, if necessary, they can gang up on an uppity male, and keep him in check.
Chimpanzee women (chimps in general) are more individualistic, and as a result individual power counts for more there. Which does not turn out all that well for those females.
Humans can use reason a bit more (not as much as might be smart, admittedly), and that gives some ability to adjust the response. Opting for the approach which Rand's harem has taken may not be typical, but it is definitely not unknown either amongst humans. A well known (in the Netherlands, at least) example was that of Anton Heyboer and his women. He does seem to have known them longer than Rand did before adding them to his group, though. Then again, he didn't have all the forces of evil hunting him, which helps when it comes to time management.
  #5  
Old 02-20-2012, 10:09 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
You are not fit for a career in politics. Or you are, of course, if you're being dishonest here.

Elayne is getting what Berelain tried to get: a clear tie of a female ruler to the greatest source of authority of the entire Age. Compared to her mother's first marriage, that is a very big step up.
Aviendha is setting herself up as one of the most influential Wise Ones alive, and, if she doesn't get herself killed nor makes a very big mistake, she can then enjoy that position for centuries to come.
Min had the choice between being a waitress in a rural backwater, or being a royal consort with solid ties with some of the most powerful women on Earth.

For which of them was this against their "own best interests" and why?
That's certainly true. But Jordan didn't present it that way. If Elayne and Min had chosen to get over their dislike of sharing their lover because of those practical reasons, I could buy that (Aviendha gets somewhat of a pass due to the Aiel culture) and the foursome would've been much less annoying to me. But Elayne never thought "sharing Rand with others sucks, but it's worth it for the political advantages this relationship gives me, so let's give it a try at least for a time", even though this would've been quite plausible and in-character for her. No, after the initial hesitation she quickly came around and now she is all "It's great sharing my man with another 2 women and I am not jealous at all", which makes absolutely no sense apart from "The Pattern made her feel so".

Last edited by David Selig; 02-20-2012 at 10:25 AM.
  #6  
Old 02-20-2012, 10:15 AM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
You are not fit for a career in politics. Or you are, of course, if you're being dishonest here.

Elayne is getting what Berelain tried to get: a clear tie of a female ruler to the greatest source of authority of the entire Age. Compared to her mother's first marriage, that is a very big step up.
Aviendha is setting herself up as one of the most influential Wise Ones alive, and, if she doesn't get herself killed nor makes a very big mistake, she can then enjoy that position for centuries to come.
Min had the choice between being a waitress in a rural backwater, or being a royal consort with solid ties with some of the most powerful women on Earth.
Well, sure if you want to strip away all emotional significance. Marriages of convenience do exist but Min and the others state repeatedly that this is something more, that they have a genuine emotional connection to Rand.


Quote:
For which of them was this against their "own best interests" and why?
They're acting against their own best interests because - in real life - a situation like this would invariably result in fits of depression, jealousy and rage for each woman involved. Yes, yes, I know this is a story but there's only so far you can take that excuse. We all know how people behave in real life and if you stretch it too far, you destroy the audience's ability to relate to the characters.


Quote:
Depends a bit on the species of primate.
Bonobo women, for instance, seem to have greater attachment to each other than to their males. As a result, if necessary, they can gang up on an uppity male, and keep him in check.
Chimpanzee women (chimps in general) are more individualistic, and as a result individual power counts for more there. Which does not turn out all that well for those females.
Humans can use reason a bit more (not as much as might be smart, admittedly), and that gives some ability to adjust the response. Opting for the approach which Rand's harem has taken may not be typical, but it is definitely not unknown either amongst humans.
Yes, but women who live in a harem in real life are typically viewed - and view themseleves - as property. That's why being in a harem is at odds with the established character traits of independent women like Elayne and Min and Aviendha.

Harem's do exist but women are typically forced into them with no real chance to refuse. RJ seems to be trying to convince people that his three heroines would choose this and that's where he loses me and a lot of other people.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
  #7  
Old 02-20-2012, 10:41 AM
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Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
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Seeker, I think you need to do a bit of reading up on polyamory before you start making judgements about the feelings people would have in real life. People can and do have relationships involving more than two people, and manage to feel pretty good about it. (it's a movement with a symbol and everything! SYMBOL.)
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2012, 11:01 AM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Seeker, I think you need to do a bit of reading up on polyamory before you start making judgements about the feelings people would have in real life. People can and do have relationships involving more than two people, and manage to feel pretty good about it. (it's a movement with a symbol and everything! SYMBOL.)
Yeah, but I'm betting the women in these polyamorous relationships are free to have multiple boyfriends as well, right?

See, Rand's relationship isn't like that. I know it's never stated in the books but I'm reasonably certain that Elayne and Aviendha are expected to remain faithful to him even when they don't see him for months and he sleeps with another woman. That's the rub; there's an inherent inequality here. Also polyamorous relationships make for horrible love stories, which was my original point.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
  #9  
Old 02-20-2012, 11:48 AM
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Aulis Vaara Aulis Vaara is offline
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Yeah, but I'm betting the women in these polyamorous relationships are free to have multiple boyfriends as well, right?
A key that opens all locks is a pretty great key, right? But a lock that is opened by all keys is a pretty shitty lock.

The same reasoning applies with men and women. If a woman might be made pregnant by any number of men, you can't count on her to provide you with off-spring, yet one man could impregnate multiple women and they'd all know the kid was theirs. THAT is why polyamory with multiple women is way more likely than with multiple men.
  #10  
Old 02-20-2012, 02:42 PM
Seeker Seeker is offline
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A key that opens all locks is a pretty great key, right? But a lock that is opened by all keys is a pretty shitty lock.

The same reasoning applies with men and women. If a woman might be made pregnant by any number of men, you can't count on her to provide you with off-spring, yet one man could impregnate multiple women and they'd all know the kid was theirs. THAT is why polyamory with multiple women is way more likely than with multiple men.

That is the stupidest, most sexist thing I have ever heard.

Let's be clear, either both partners have to remain faithul to each other or both partners get to experiment with other lovers. Anything in between counts as one person treating the other as property.
__________________
He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
  #11  
Old 02-20-2012, 03:22 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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That is the stupidest, most sexist thing I have ever heard.
You have had a very sheltered upbringing. In at least two ways, too.
Quote:
Well, that's an interesting question because I've read books that feature polygamous relationships - Stranger in a Strange Land, for instance - but I'm not sure I would call those novels love stories. But a key point to keep in mind is that those books weren't trying to be love stories; so, I didn't judge them by those standards.
Would Time Enough For Love count? That's also by Heinlein, in case you don't know it.
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Old 02-20-2012, 03:22 PM
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Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
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Well, that's an interesting question because I've read books that feature polygamous relationships - Stranger in a Strane Land, for instance - but I'm not sure I would call those novels love stories. But a key point to keep in mind is that those books weren't trying to be love stories; so, I didn't judge them by those standards.

WOT has tried to set up Rand's relationships in the tradional boy meets girl, boy gets girl fashion. So, it seems to me like this series is trying to tell a love story. The scene where Min sits in Rand's lap in Lord of Chaos, for instance, is downright adorable.

The problem is that the kind of story RJ set up is one in which our protagonist (Rand) has to pick one of the three women who fall in love with him. The ending he gave us is "Rand ends up with all three, that lucky bastard." Which undermines the three women because it's not like they can date other men and sort of ignores the whole point of this love...square. (Was gonna say Love triangle). You see, the ultimate point of a love triangle (or square in this case) is that two people end up together and someone else goes home unhappy. RJ got around that by just deus-ex machining the three women to all be happy with 1/3 of a relationship and maybe shoving in some lesbian undertones between Elayne and Aviendha to compensate for the fact that Rand's most important wife is Min.

Deus-ex machina is always awful and no less so in love stories. Which is why this story doesn't work.
I would think if there was a little more overt experimentation with the three women regarding themselves as also married to each other it'd work better, though I'm not 100% sure if that's because I genuinely think that or just because I'd like to read it (I may be a feminist, but I still put my pants on one leg at a time. So does cross-dressing David Duchovny)

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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
That is the stupidest, most sexist thing I have ever heard.

Let's be clear, either both partners have to remain faithul to each other or both partners get to experiment with other lovers. Anything in between counts as one person treating the other as property.
I have no desire to get into a row/flamewar with you, as I generally agree with your points and find you a thoughtful and intelligent member of the community. I also recognise this is a response to another user, not to myself.

That said, I think that your position here with regard to who should treat who in what way is incredibly judgemental. I don't think a relationship where one partner is sexually involved with others while the other is not is an example of the first partner treating the second as property, and I think that's an objectionable stance to take. Two people might have a relationship where the fact that one partner is sleeping around is concealed from the other; that may be a betrayal of trust, but I don't see how it amounts to treating the other as "property". On the other side of the equation, two people may, amongst themselves, decide that it's okay for them to have sexual relations with other people. If one partner decides for whatever reason not to take advantage of the open relationship, does that mean the other is treating them as property? To take it a step further, what if that partner says "It's okay for you to sleep with whoever you like, but it is important to me that I remain faithful to you, so I'm going to do that, even though I have permission"? This then might create an expectation in the other's mind that their partner will remain faithful, and they might be hurt if their partner then breaks their word. I can see how even that could be a betrayal of trust, but I seriously struggle to see how anyone is being treated as property.

Note that I make no judgements on how lasting these relationships might be. The cultural norm in Western society is monogamy, just as it is heterosexuality. For years there was an expectation that homosexual relationships would not last, so it's difficult to underestimate how great an effect the idea - from people who conform to society's norm - can have on the actual sticking power of polyamorous relationships.

To bring it back to WOT, one important point is that at least two of three Dragonbrides knew what she was getting into. Min knew she'd have to share Rand and Aviendha knew about Elayne. Elayne learned about the other two, but accepted it rather than rejecting it. To my mind, this makes the scenario more comparable to the second situation I outlined above, where it's okay for one partner to sleep around but the other has decided not to. If, as Felix thinks will happen () Elayne decides to get with Mat in AMOL, Rand will have little recourse for argument. He's never tried to prohibit any of his three girlfriends from other relationships. I addressed above my feeling that the relationship would work better for me if it were treated more as an actual four-person poly rather than as one man with three women, but though I am sympathetic to the arguments about Mat and Elayne belonging together, the four-way still works for me.
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Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
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  #13  
Old 02-21-2012, 05:43 PM
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Okay, for Zombie Sammael.

The problem with Rand and the girls is the double standard. I'm not saying that girls HAVE to sleep with other men but the fact that they are forbidden from doing so while Rand is free to be with multiple women is problematic in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
To take it a step further, what if that partner says "It's okay for you to sleep with whoever you like, but it is important to me that I remain faithful to you, so I'm going to do that, even though I have permission"?
Then that person is insane.

No, seriously, think about it. "It's okay for you to sleep with whoever you like, but it is important to me that I remain faithful to you, so I'm going to do that, even though I have permission" The amount of cognitive dissonance in this statement is baffling. "I'm saving myself for you, ______. I won't have sex with anyone else but you. But you can have sex with anyone you please. I'm just THAT happy to be with you."


Does this sound like the mind of a healthy person or does it sound like some kind of twisted obsession.



Hell, to me it sounds like God-damn Bella Swan!
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  #14  
Old 02-21-2012, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Okay, for Zombie Sammael.

The problem with Rand and the girls is the double standard. I'm not saying that girls HAVE to sleep with other men but the fact that they are forbidden from doing so while Rand is free to be with multiple women is problematic in my opinion.



Then that person is insane.

No, seriously, think about it. "It's okay for you to sleep with whoever you like, but it is important to me that I remain faithful to you, so I'm going to do that, even though I have permission" The amount of cognitive dissonance in this statement is baffling. "I'm saving myself for you, ______. I won't have sex with anyone else but you. But you can have sex with anyone you please. I'm just THAT happy to be with you."


Does this sound like the mind of a healthy person or does it sound like some kind of twisted obsession.



Hell, to me it sounds like God-damn Bella Swan!
At least Rand hasn't brutally abused any of them yet...outside of Semi's torture of Rand that is.

So there's that.
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  #15  
Old 02-21-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post

The problem with Rand and the girls is the double standard. I'm not saying that girls HAVE to sleep with other men but the fact that they are forbidden from doing so while Rand is free to be with multiple women is problematic in my opinion.
When were they forbidden from doing so?
  #16  
Old 02-21-2012, 10:41 PM
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The problem with Rand and the girls is the double standard.
I agree! Why is it that men are written as dirty selfish sluts incapable of commitment, while women are pure of heart and constant, so devoted to their man that they're willing to share his affection?

Damned sexist double standards.
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  #17  
Old 02-22-2012, 01:39 AM
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I agree! Why is it that men are written as dirty selfish sluts incapable of commitment, while women are pure of heart and constant, so devoted to their man that they're willing to share his affection?

Damned sexist double standards.
I think this is a hyperbolic portrayal of the complaint, which generally boils down to: there is no female counterpart to Mat among the main characters. Closest you get are Morgase and Berelain among the sub-mains. Even Birgitte is faithful to Gaidal, despite her flirting. Not that Mat would not be faithful. But RJ just didn't write any main females with his sexual freedom.
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  #18  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:12 AM
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I think this is a hyperbolic portrayal of the complaint, which generally boils down to: there is no female counterpart to Mat among the main characters. Closest you get are Morgase and Berelain among the sub-mains. Even Birgitte is faithful to Gaidal, despite her flirting. Not that Mat would not be faithful. But RJ just didn't write any main females with his sexual freedom.
Yeah, it is a touch exaggerated, but I think that the complaint is as well. Weren't you the one that reminded me that Mat's counterpart is that Aes Sedai with the ah, sexual healing?

Jolene isn't quite the goat, but Cadsuane "I Go Through Warders Like Shoes" Melaidhrin also come to mind.

Mat may be the lady's man, but there's a at least a few gentleman's ladies, so to speak. It's not a concept RJ is unfamiliar with, as he rightly seems to believe that women can be every bit as randy as men.
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  #19  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:21 AM
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Yeah, it is a touch exaggerated, but I think that the complaint is as well. Weren't you the one that reminded me that Mat's counterpart is that Aes Sedai with the ah, sexual healing?
I said main characters. Morgase and Berelain, the ones I mentioned, are more 'main' than Myrelle.
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  #20  
Old 02-22-2012, 02:53 AM
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I said main characters. Morgase and Berelain, the ones I mentioned, are more 'main' than Myrelle.
I see where you're coming from, though I personally would put Cadsuane ahead of Morgase and Berelain on the secondary fem-characters list; both seem to have run their course, while Cadsuane may still have a major development left.

Of course, she's not a main character, but I'm not sure I see a need for perfect balance in a character trait like ... promiscuity, I guess you might call it unless it's to prove some sort of gender equality notions that RJ has never really shown in his books.
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Last edited by eht slat meit; 02-22-2012 at 03:04 AM.
 


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