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Old 12-30-2010, 09:20 PM
twicemarked twicemarked is offline
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Default What to do to Seal the Bore?

My first theory here. I have seen a few interesting theory on what Rand will do to win. This is a theory on how people other than Rand will contribute to the Last Battle. This is a very long post, so I put some supporting quotes to the end.

Part 1)
Based on the properties of the current Seals, we can deduce that to properly seal the Bore,

the new Seal must satisfy several properties:

1) It needs to be at least as strong as Cuendillar. Anything less would be destroyed
instantly.

2) It needs to last for eternity. The current Seals weakened to the point of breaking after
three thousand years, and three thousand years is just not long enough.

3) It is desirable that the DO's counter stroke during the sealing process, if any, does not
cause another Breaking of the World.

4) It is desirable to have a good reason why the Aes Sedais in the Age of Legend can not come
up with the same answer then, other than they held the idiot ball.

After careful deliberations, there is one answer that satisfies all of them. Before I reveal the answer, let us first consider the nature of the DO's prison.

From all evidence, currently the Pattern is the DO's prison. The DO is outside the Pattern, and trying to break through. If we have something that is as strong as the Pattern, that should be able to contain the DO.

But what is the Pattern anyway? The answer is there in the very first book.

<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Eye of the World
GLOSSARY
The Wheel of Time weaves <b>the threads of human lives </b>into the Pattern of an Age
</quote>

The Pattern is made from threads of human life. So far, this concept is only used to explain
ta'veren and balefire. But it also has a hidden utilization -- a Patch made out of threads of
human life is "Pattern-like", and can fuse with the remainder of the DO's Prison when set to
the Bore. This is the only way to make the DO's Prison the same as the Creator made it, made
entirely out of the Pattern, without any foreign substance.

To seal the DO this way, would replace the existing Seals with a Living Seal, a Seal made of
human lives, stronger than cuendillar and Everlasting. At a metaphysical level, it implies
that people/souls can be the strongest materials in the world. This may be regarded as quite
cheesy, and very cliched. This is very true, but in the WOT, it is the natural result of the
cosmology of WOT. It could even be argued this is the very moral of the whole series.

Thematically, there is no better solution than this.

Before going further into the details, I will show how this solution have all four desirable
properties I set out in the beginning.

1) It is stronger than Cuendillar. The Pattern itself is made from threads of human life and
has stood against the DO for eternity. Since the patch is made from the same material as the
rest of the prison, it should be as strong as the rest of the DO's prison.

2) The Seal can last for eternity, provided people continue to be born, and added to the Seal
as others die. While individual humans are mortal, the human experience can be immortal. In a sense, this Living Seal represents the collective beliefs of those people whose lives are used to construct the Seal. An ideal will not die so long as there are people who follow this
ideal. The Seal can can last forever if there are people who follow the ideals represented by
this Seal.


3) As to the DO's counter strike, it can be rationalized the following way. The cuendillar
disks are not flexible. So the DO's counter strike is transferred to the Saidin used to set
the Seal, thus tainting Saidin. Life threads are flexible, so the counter strike can be absorbed, instead of transferred.

So instead of tainting the True Source, the people whose life threads are used to construct
the Seal will die, and only a remanent will survive the Sealing. It may take an Age for the
Seal to fully fuse with the rest of the DO's prison, and only a remanent of a remanent will
survive to the next Age. So while there will be a great loss of human lives initially, the
world can stabilize and progress from here on.

"The Hard shatters, while the Strong endures." Rand has tried to become as hard as cuendillar
in TGS, and that has failed to achieve any success. He almost shattered. He achieved success
only when he tried to become human, with human emotions. This will be mirrored in the final
Sealing process. Human will succeed where Cuendillar failed.

Robert Jordan said that the tainting of Saidin is due to a "unique" circumstance, without
much elaboration. It is worth noting that the DO has only tainted Saidin using the counter
strike during the Sealing process. If the DO can taint Saidin at any time, He could have done
so at the start of the War of Shadow. If the DO can taint Saidin through the disks after the
Sealing, Rand's Cleansing would have achieved nothing, as the DO can just taint Saidin all
over again.

By having a large death toll at the sealing process, the solution of a Living Human Seal
avoids the cheesy image of hugs and rainbows overcoming evil. Death and sacrifise are
necessary to defeat evil. Love and hugs does not avoid the pain and suffering at all. It only
ensures that the sacrifise given is worthwell, and given willingly.

<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 18 - A Taste of Solitude

it will not really be the Last Battle. Because the Wheel of Time turns, there will come a
time again when the Dark One's prison is whole and no one even remembers him. No one can do
what the Creator did, yet somehow the prison will get back to the way it was in the Age of
Legends.
</quote>


So while it seemed a rhetorical question to ask "how can a man mend what the Creator made",
there is a correct answer -- "using the same material that the Creator used."

In AMOL, this idea to make a Seal/Focus from life threads can easily come from Moiraine by accident. She is practically the only one mumbling about Threads and Patterns in the whole

series anyway. She can talk about the Pattern in an off-handed way like "or do you think the
Wheel will weave a new Pattern and keep the DO's Prison shut when the Dragon go down to the
Pit of Doom?", and someone says all of a sudden," Why, that is a great idea!" Thus, fulfilling Min's viewing about the importance of Moiraine.

4) For property number 4, to make the Seal, we need a special type of people, who are not
available in the Age of Legends. If we consider the Seals representing the beliefs of those
people, an ideal that materialized so to speak, the strength of the Seal should be directly
related to the strength of the ideal. "Order and belief brings strength." The strength of the
Living Seal is dependent upon the order and belief of the people made up the Seal, and how
strongly they believe in that ideal. While people and souls <b> can</b> be stronger than
Cuendillar, it is not always so. Only with the right ideals and belief can this be realized.

On who those people must be, we come to part 2).


I added a few references at the end of this post [1][2][3] about quotes in the book that can
be explained better with the idea of a Human Seal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 2)

After the method of Sealing the Bore is found, two questions remain:

A) Whose life threads to use, and
B) the mechanism of creating a Seal out of life threads.

The answer to the first question comes naturally during Aviendha's second trip into Rhuidean.

We can clearly see that the Aiel can not remain a society of warriors. Here, we have a people
without purpose, and we also have a purpose without the needed people from Part 1). Bring two
and two together, I imagine a scenario where Aviendha will make the Aiel the Focus of the
Human Seal, a new purpose given to the Aiel who follows a new Covenant. The lives of the Aiel
who swear to the Covenant willingly, will be added to the Focus of the Seal. As long as there
are enough Aiel keeping to the Covenant, the Seal will remain strong, and the DO can not
break free.

Some quotes in TOM implied this kind of battles as the ultimate last battle. The Last Battle
here is unlike in any traditional fantasy. It is not about Heroes defeating Evil, but about
mankind confronting Evil.

<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Tower of Midnight

This is not my battle. I will guide you, but I have too much to do,

Breaking the spirit of men....he thirsts for that. He struck far harder than he otherwise
would have because he wanted to break my spirit.
</quote>

Rand is only the leader. The real work has to be done by the regular people. The leader can
only prepare people to make the hard choices.

In order for the Covenant to have any meaning, becoming the Focus of the Seal must be a
dangerous, daunting and lifelong task. It might mean that they could possibly battle the DO
in an alternate dimension (T'A'R maybe) every day, for the rest of their lives. They may be
tortured, they may be tempted. Some will receive wounds in the dream, and wake up injured;
and some will die in their sleep during the battle. If enough died, the DO will break
through. And the first night when the patch is applied, the counter stroke will kill many,
and drive lots of Aiel insane. After that night, there will still be battles, and injuries
... thus the tension remains.

When Aviendha starts to train to become a Wise One, she gave up her spears. She can not fight
two battles at the same time. Similarly, it is for this specific purpose, that the Aiel are
no longer capable of fighting a battle in the flesh during the day. For them, it is "the last
battle" -- in the flesh, until the Wheel turns, and the Third Age comes again, at least.

They give up the spear not to avoid fighting, like the Tinkers, but to fight an even harder
battle of nightmares. This go back to the following theme earlier on in the series:

<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow rising
Chapter 23 -- Beyond the Stone
You are not giving up a hard and dangerous life for a softer, but for a harder and more dangerous.
</quote>

This was said to Aviendha on giving up the spear. And Aviendha could say the same thing to all the Aiel joining the Covenant, and giving up the spear for something more.

This new battle front will change Aiel in a major way, because in this battle, there is no glory. There is no possibility of victory in the traditional sense. No Aiel can kill the DO.

The best they can do is to stand their ground, withstand the abuse, and prevent the DO from
getting out. Each will fight like other Aiel before them, and other Aiel after them. And even
if they succeed one night, they have to fight another night, just like the previous night,
and each battle is just as important as the last one. There can be no glory, just a job well
done. In a way, this is very close to the Da'shain Aiel's system of honor through service,
instead of glory in battle.

Some may consider this a bleak vision for the Aiel. Only a remanent of a remanent will
survive. A large percentage may die in the first night they become the focus, testing their
resolve. If 50% died in the very first night, people may ask, "can we really last through
this"?

But it also presents a highly idealistic version of war: that some people fight nightmares,
so other people don't have to. Consider RJ's combat background, it is a fitting end to his
final battles.

And this also connects nicely with the theme of the Horn of Valere.

<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Great Hunt
Chapter 46
Let who sounds me think not of glory, think only of salvation.
</quote>

I can't think of a better motto for the new Aiel. Their fight against the DO is not of glory,
but of salvation. Salvation of themselves, and salvation of man kind.

The idea of fighting a war for salvation instead of glory is an essential theme to this series. It is expressed repeatedly by Mat, Perrin and Rand. They are not fighting a war for their own glory, and they are not fighting a war for the glory of others, be it Andor, Seanchan or the WT. They only took up leadership for the salvation of their followers, not for their glory. And I expect the Light side leaders, especially Elayne, Tuon and Egwene, will eventually realize this, and work together.

Battling the DO in this fashion presents a whole new meaning to the Shaido incident and the
Bleakness. The Second Aiel War and the Bleakness must happen, so the remaining Aiel can be strong enough to stand against the DO in this new battle. The Aiel who left seek only of glory, are thus not fit to fight the DO. Even if they do not join the Shadow in seeking glory, they are likely to abandon their post to seek glory in a dream created by the DO, thus easily tempted.

Now, the answer to Property number 4) becomes clear: the Dragon can not seal the DO properly
in the AOL, but can do it in the Third Age because, "they had no Battle Harden Aiel back
then".

The peace loving Da'shain Aiel that followed the Way of the Leaf in the AOL were simply not
strong enough to face the DO. If the Aiel in the Third Age must return to the Way of the Leaf
before winning the last battle, the obvious question is: How come the folks in the AOL can
not figure out something so simple, with all their foretellings, dreaming and peace loving
Da'shain Aiel at the peak power for one hundred years before the War of the Shadow?

We can also look at the Breaking of the World in a new light. At the end of the War of the
Shadow, there was no permanent solution against the DO. So a temporary solution of using
cuendillar was chosen by the Pattern. This merely buys time until the Aiel can grow strong enough to face the DO in a Last Battle at the end of the Third Age. The task assigned to the Aiel by the Wheel becomes clear, even if the Aes Sedai who set this into motion may not be aware of this.

<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
Chapter 26 -- The Dedicated
Besides, the Da'Shain have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say
what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you.

</quote>

From this point on, Aiel will no longer be marked by clan or sept or bloodline. Anyone who decide to dedicate themselves to the fight against the DO, and proves capable of doing so, can become an Aiel, and maintain the Seal at a personal cost. In this fashion, they will become like the Tinkers, who will take in anyone who want to follow the Way of the Leaf. The pure blooded way of the Aiel will become a thing of the past.

At the start of the Fourth Age, the DO's attack will be strong, and as society gets stronger,
more orderly, the attack will be fewer and fewer, until the attack themselves becomes a myth, then a legend, until the DO is forgotten, and the Prison is whole and drilled again when the
Second Age comes again.

Aiel will start with no more battle of the flesh. Then there is no more battle of the nightmare. Sometime during that long chain of events, the Aiel will adapt the Way of the Leaf, so when the Second Age comes again, the full cycle can begin anew.

In this fashion, the answer to why the Aiel <b> CANNOT </b> return to the Way of the Leaf before the Last Battle is the same answer as to why Olver can not be Gaidal Cain, the timing is wrong. If the Aiel return to the Way of the Leaf now, what do they do in Age 4,5,6,7 and 1?

Based on this assumption, I would also have the perfect item to raise an Aiel -- The Accepttron. Several Wise Ones will operate it, and show the new initiate what the DO is likely to do to prevent the initiate from his task of guarding the Bore, from their personal experience. When the initiate passes, he/she is washed clean of his previous life, and becomes an Aiel, ready to join the fight confronting the DO.

To come out of the Accepttron, requires one to have one purpose above all else. This is acceptable only if that purpose itself is noble enough. To guard creation from destruction
sounds like one that should override all other concerns.

In this context, the Dragon's Peace has an entirely different meaning than just no fighting
among the nations. The Aiel, by becoming the Living Seal, has to be protected and respected
by every nation, without a need to defend themselves ever again. They must prosper to ensure future generations of fighters against the DO. The Dragon's Peace is a necessary condition
for the Aiel to prosper, and defend the world, rather than a cease fire imposed as a price of
spoiling the Dragon's blood.

The Dragon's Peace will be the Peace upon the Aiel. They shall never be harmed by men, and
must be cared for by men. They can do whatever they need by day(planting trees, maybe), and
fight nightmares by night. Those that are injured or driven mad by the DO must be cared for by other men so that the Aiel can prosper. So while the Aiel are very good at self defense at the moment, there will no longer be a need for Aiel to defende themselves in the Fourth Age.

As time goes by, the Aiel can gradually adapt the Way of the Leaf. Only when all men who wish harm upon the Aiel are defeated by other men, can the Aiel themselves adapt the Way of the Leaf. Non-violence is only acceptable when peace is enforced without a need for self defense.

My personal belief is that the Sealing process will kill many Aiel, but thereafter, it is
likely madness that will result from the nightly battle against the DO. This is mirrored by the Sealing process at the End of the Second Age. The breaking of the World is the result of powerful channelers going mad. In this Age, a different group of people will go mad. The price is the same, but the world can handle one much easier than the other. There will likely be more Aiel than male channelers, so the impact is spread wider, and smaller.

I also have a lingerly thought that if there is one thing RJ may want to say in this series, based on his personal combat experience in Vietnam, it will be whether or not the U.S. has
paid enough attention to the mental health of combat veterans. Those Aiel who are driven mad
will have proper medical care in the book, and discussed as such in the setting of the series. What this says about us can be implied.

Rand's entire experience in TGS could well be a very personal experience for Robert Jordan. Hardened by brutal combat experience, driven by madness to the point of suicide, and recovered
due to love. While this is possible without outside help, like Rand did, and how RJ
reintegrated into society, it is highly likely that explicit mental health care for the Aiel
will be made in the series.

From the Aiel cultural prospective, this would fit their existing culture much better. As we
can see from Aviendha's POV in TGS, to an Aiel, the worst kind of shame is useless labor. If
the Aiel were to return to the Way of the Leaf now, the last three thousand years are useless
labor. The Aiel who throw away the objects of One Power, and became Tinkers at the Breaking
of the World would earn great honor.

If the Aiel becomes the Focus of the New Seal, the last three thousands years in the desert
would merely be the tempering process before they can be forged. The desert in Three-fold land, hot by day, and cold by night, exhibit the exact same condition as the tempering process. "Three fold", folding metal over and over to turn iron into tempered steel. The signs are all here for people who wish to look.

It would also grant them great honor. Basically, they are just declared the best warrior in the whole world, and the only warrior capable of standing up against a deity. Their stand every night against the DO is the proof that no one can deny. There is nothing more they could want. Rand has said he has toh toward the Aiel. And the best way to meet his toh is to give ji to the Aiel.

If the final solution to Sealing the DO is to use human threads, the obvious danger is for tyrants to sacrifice helpless people to make Seals -- Weak Seals that do not last long, but will do for the life time of these tyrants. The leaders are essentially sending people to harm's way.

The WOT series would become very dark if indeed someone would just pick up any human threads and make a Seal out of it. In fact, I suspect that Faile and Perrin will put their own life threads in, and Perrin will have to accept the possibilities, and that will be his ultimate
personal growth, in direct contrast to his "Damn the world,save Faile first" attitude.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Part 3)

Having said that, it becomes obvious what my personal idea is, about question B), How will
Life Threads be made into a Seal. I took it to be self evident, that Perrin, the Blacksmith, will make new Seals out of human Threads with his magic Hammer, in the Dream World. Since Perrin put some of his own soul into the Hammer, I envision him leaving the Hammer there, and the Hammer will keep on working the Forge on its own, adding future life threads to reinforce the Seal, for eternity. That is a much better use of a magic hammer than killing mere Trollocs.

"There is a difference between an axe and a hammer. A hammer can build." That implies Perrin
will build something with his magic hammer. What better thing to build than a prison for the DO, or at least a new door/lock on that prison.

Or maybe Perrin becomes a hero of the Horn after death, and have to stay in the T'A'R, keep
working the dream forge and re-enforce the Seal with new life threads that swear to the new
Covenant. Perrin could live his after life doing what he want to do the most, being a simple
blacksmith god. In either case, it seems a fitting end.

Perrin could even "die"(enter the T'A'R too strongly so his body almost die) before the Last
Battle, so that he can start to make the Seal full time in the dream world, while everyone
else think the Broken Wolf has died.

If I didn't have the restriction of no more trips to Seanchan mainland, I would even have
Perrin use the Crystal Throne as the Anvil to make the Seals. Perrin could have found it
using "Need", and taken it to make the Seal without realizing what it is he took. That would
give Rand kneeling to the Crystal Throne a much more benign meaning, a tribute to the sacrifice of the Aiel. I just think it would be a great way to play with the letter of a prophecy like this.

The details to make it work can come about in many ways. It may well be that entering T'A'R
in the flesh will expose one's life thread, to someone who knows where to look. The Aiel
Dream Walkers may give Perrin the final hint, in a grand session of information sharing. Or
Lanfear may give Perrin a hint on how to bend life threads to create a Pattern. Anyhow, many
things in the dream world can be hand waved to allow a Seal to be constructed out of life
threads, and things happening to the life thread can be reflected to that person.

As to the Trollocs, they are still important. The purpose of the Trollocs are to eliminate
any human threads that can be used to form the Seal. If they can kill all the Aiel in their
sleep, the Seal will break and the DO will break free. So the battle of the swords are necessary, but the purpose is to protect the people who are fighting the DO at a different level. it is not the real battle, as Verin Sedai so thoughtfully indicated, but it is still a necessary battle.

In this line of thinking, a "Dark Rand" who did not destroy the Pattern could also "win" the
Last Battle by making Seals out of people's lives against their wills, and name they
"collateral damage". The Seal will be weak by nature, but will do for a period of time. That
would be like a world where the weak are routinely killed on the alter to strength the Seal.

A victory by the light could indeed be as dark as a defeat. The difference between good and evil then becomes obvious.

I envision the three ta'verens work together like this:

Mat is the General, and fights the Last Battle in the Flesh against the Trollocs and the Dreadlords.
Perrin is the Bannerman, gathering Wolves in the Dream, plus Aiel who dedicated themselves,
hammering these life threads into a new Seal, and gives it to Rand. The wolf will act as
guides to man, on fighting nightmare and the DO in the Dream. Man will be running with wolves, in the dreams at first. After a few ages, man will run with wolves in the flesh, which is how wolf brothers started in the beginning.
And Rand is the Dragon, using the Seal made by Perrin as the focus, and set it on the DO's
prison, and reseal the Bore for as long as there are Aiel left to maintains the Seal. This is
still going to a hard task, needing the help of women, a blade of light, etc. There will be a
struggle at SG, but this is only the beginning. The rest of the battle are fought by mankind,
not the Dragon. It will not be the Dragon that defeated Evil and saved mankind. It will be
mankind that hold the Evil at bay, and saved mankind.

Thus the DO's counter attack can kill many characters in one fella step, and reduce the Aiel
to the remnant of a remnant. And yet there are enough left to maintain the Seal, and win the
LB at a heavy cost, and a continuing cost with danger just lurking around the corner. It is a
fight with a heavy cost, but also hope.

To maintain dramatic tension, it may be preferable for Rand to go to the Pit of Doom, without the right idea of how to seal the Bore, or relying on a wrong idea. He went in relying on
faith, faith in the Creator to help him win. But in fact, he was relying on a faith of mankind, relying on others doing their part to help him.

Behind him, others like Perrin/Moiraine/Aviendha will be scrambling to create the things the Dragon would need, and rushing to deliver it to him. It would be a pleasant surprise to Rand,
that the people whom he is trying to protect come through for him. He does not have to do it all by himself. The whole world has become one to help him.

I could totally see Moiraine riding on dream Bela again to deliver the finished Seal to Rand at the very last second at the T'A'R version of the Edmonds Field, where it all began, and Seal the Bore properly.

-----------------------
Reference
[1]
The current thinking about the Seal center around the following statements by LTT:
<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 22 - The Last That Could Be Done

She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.

She? Rand asked.

The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.

Rand froze, pulling Tai'daishar up short, ignoring the groom who had come to take the horse.

To hear Lews Therin agreeing. . . .

What do we do after that? Rand asked.

We die. You promised we could die!

Only if we defeat the Dark One, Rand said. You know that if he wins, there will be nothing for us. Not even death.

Yes . . . nothing, Lews Therin said. That would be nice. No pain, no regret. Nothing.

Rand felt a chill. If Lews Therin began to think that way . . . No, Rand said, it wouldn't be
nothing. He would have our soul. The pain would be worse, far worse.

Lews Therin began to weep.

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?

It didn't work, Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It
was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to

taint it. The seal was weak!

Yes, but what do we do differently? Rand thought.

Silence.
</quote>

The general interpretation is that the "something" here is referring to Saidin, due to the obvious fact that Saidin was tainted. But a simpler interpretation is the cuendillar disks,
the focus on the DO's prison. "something to close the gap", the Gap on the DO's prison.

It was a trap typical of Robert Jordan, hiding things in plain sight, just like good old Verin Sedai.

There are a number of quotes seeming to indicate that the DO is touching the cuendillar disks
directly.




[2]
<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 9 - A Signal

As much as she wanted to find out where Siuan Sanche wanted them to chase the Black Ajah
next, the seal was the source of her haste to reach Tar Valon. Digging coins from one of the
fat purses, she avoided touching the flat purse; the longer it remained in her possession, the more she wanted to hand it to the Amyrlin and be done with it. Sometimes she thought she could feel the Dark One, trying to break through, when she was near the thing.

</quote>

When the cuendillar disks broke, they no longer felt evil as they are no longer touched by the DO.

[3]
<quote>
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn

"It was whole when we put it in the purse." Nynaeve paused to work moisture back into her
mouth. As much as her eyes had avoided the covering cloth before, they could not leave the
seal now. Leane had smirked when she saw the red dress unwrapped from around its cargo, and
said... No, she would not run away from it, even in her head! "Why should we have thought to
take special care? It's cuendillar!"

"We didn't look at it," Elayne said breathlessly, "or touch it more than we had to. It felt
filthy, evil." It no longer did. Carlinya had made them each hold a piece, demanding to know
what evil feeling they were talking about.
</quote>


It may well be that only the cuendillar disk the DO is currently working on will felt evil.

The others, broken or otherwise, will not.

"The seal was weak!", because cuendillar was not strong enough to absorb the counter strike.
  #2  
Old 12-30-2010, 09:50 PM
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Well thought out. I like it.

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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just figure out which questions they go to. )

I met you in a past life. You were wrong then, too.
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Old 12-30-2010, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
My first theory here. I have seen a few interesting theory on what Rand will do to win.
I noticed you stealing my quotes!

Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
But what is the Pattern anyway? The answer is there in the very first book.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Eye of the World
GLOSSARY
The Wheel of Time weaves the threads of human lives into the Pattern of an Age
The Pattern is made from threads of human life.
Brandon has said that everything has a thread - even a rock in a wall.

Quote:
2) The Seal can last for eternity, provided people continue to be born, and added to the Seal
as others die. While individual humans are mortal, the human experience can be immortal. In a sense, this Living Seal represents the collective beliefs of those people whose lives are used to construct the Seal. An ideal will not die so long as there are people who follow this ideal. The Seal can can last forever if there are people who follow the ideals represented by
this Seal.
I think this is where you start to get off into lala-land. Not that the idea is necessarily illogical - it's just that you make a number of assumptions about what the nature of the seal should be quite aside from the fact that you assume it should be made from human threads. Assuming that it should indeed be made of human threads, then what evidence is there to suggest that a constant supply would be needed? I realize that you offered some logic in that direction, but at this point you have already made a number of leaps. Theories based on theories. There are a good number of sentiments in your theory that I agree with, but a number of details seem fabricated. An important question - how do you think the prison was sealed in the future that Aviendha saw? Imperfectly? Using other people? It would seem like no one would have held to his Peace if his sacrifice was to be so secondary as that.

Quote:
The peace loving Da'shain Aiel that followed the Way of the Leaf in the AOL were simply not
strong enough to face the DO.
They were not strong enough to fight Shadowspawn, but facing the Dark One is an entirely different thing. I doubt the physical strength and skill of the Aiel would serve much purpose against the Dark One. If we're talking about strength of will...the Da'shain were certainly strong enough:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated

"Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?" He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. "Of course you do. You Da'shain have more courage than... Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song. Jaric Mondoran killed them. He stood there, staring as though at a puzzle, killing them, and they kept closing their lines and singing. I am told he listened to the last Aiel for almost an hour before destroying him. And then Tzora burned, one huge flame consuming stone and metal and flesh. There is a sheet of glass where the second greatest city in the world once stood."

"Many people had time to flee, Aes Sedai. The Da'shain earned them time to flee. We are not afraid."

Her hand tightened painfully in his hair. "The citizens have already fled Paaren Disen, Jonai. Besides, the Da'shain yet have a part yet to play, if Deindre could only see far enough to say what. In any case, I mean to save something here, and that something is you."
But for some reason you only quoted the last bit of that.

Quote:
I also have a lingerly thought that if there is one thing RJ may want to say in this series, based on his personal combat experience in Vietnam...Rand's entire experience in TGS could well be a very personal experience for Robert Jordan. Hardened by brutal combat experience, driven by madness to the point of suicide, and recovered due to love.
Almost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
Robert Jordan's Blog "Hi There" - 27 April 2007

For Paracelsus, I had two nicknames in 'Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He's the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn't like so much. The Iceman. One day, we had what the Aussies called a bit of a brass-up. Just our ship alone, but we caught an NVA battalion crossing a river, and wonder of wonders, we got permission to fire before they finished. The gunner had a round explode in the chamber, jamming his 60, and the fool had left his barrel bag, with spares, back in the revetment. So while he was frantically rummaging under my seat for my barrel bag, it was over to me, young and crazy, standing on the skid, singing something by the Stones at the of my lungs with the mike keyed so the others could listen in, and Lord, Lord, I rode that 60. 3000 rounds, an empty ammo box, and a smoking barrel that I had burned out because I didn't want to take the time to change. We got ordered out right after I went dry, so the artillery could open up, and of course, the arty took credit for every body recovered, but we could count how many bodies were floating in the river when we pulled out. The next day in the orderly room an officer with a literary bent announced my entrance with "Behold, the Iceman cometh." For those of you unfamiliar with Eugene O'Neil, the Iceman was Death. I hated that name, but I couldn't shake it. And, to tell you the truth, by that time maybe it fit. I have, or used to have, a photo of a young man sitting on a log eating C-rations with a pair of chopsticks. There are three dead NVA laid out in a line just beside him. He didn't kill them. He didn't chose to sit there because of the bodies. It was just the most convenient place to sit. The bodies don't bother him. He doesn't care. They're just part of the landscape. The young man is glancing at the camera, and you know in one look that you aren't going to take this guy home to meet your parents. Back in the world, you wouldn't want him in your neighborhood, because he is cold, cold, cold. I strangled that SOB, drove a stake through his heart, and buried him face down under a crossroad outside Saigon before coming home, because I knew that guy wasn't made to survive in a civilian environment. I think he's gone. All of him. I hope so. I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles.
The inspiration for Felix's avatar, presumably.
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Old 12-31-2010, 12:58 PM
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Default Seals. Bore. Questions. Alternatives: Perrin will die; Mat becomes Dragon; Letters

Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
My first theory here. I have seen a few interesting theory on what Rand will do to win. This is a theory on how people other than Rand will contribute to the Last Battle. This is a very long post, so I put some supporting quotes to the end.
Welcome to Theoryland!
Thanks for sharing your ideas, theories with us all.


A few follow-up questions:
  • Who's to say Rand al'Thor will even guide the weaves to seal the Bore at all?
  • What is your interpretation or take on "Three shall become One" prophecy given in TGS book (Min point of view)?
  • How does Moridin attempt to prevent the Bore from being re-sealed again? His attack, or counter-attack? How is that to be stopped? By whom?
  • Why not a single mention of Alivia, in any part of your theory?
  • Why no mention in the slightest of Mierin? Nor Rand's feelings of desire towards Mierin in your theory?
  • How is Rand to find a walkway down to the Dark Lord home in Shayol Ghul, when all the land has changed since the Age of Legends? Meaning L.T.T memories of the Bore and the Dark Lord's place are vague or incorrect. Who knows exactly where the Bore walkway is?
  • Where will the Bore be actually re-sealed at? 'True World'? World of Dreams or Tel'aran'rhiod? All Worlds, except for the Mirrors Worlds at once? Will Rand physically have to walk into Shayol Ghul or not?
  • Do you believe Rand will die in the try to re-seal the Bore or not?
  • Why did Ishamael/Moridin have the Dark Prophecy written on the walls of Fal Dara, in 'The Great Hunt' book? What is your interpretation of it?
  • Why no mention of how Rand maybe or maybe not will arrive at Shayol Ghul? Gateway? Skimming? Portal stone? By flight? If flight, what bird--Seanchan or Other?
  • How will Rand Inc protect Two Rivers People from death at the hands of Shadowspawn armies coming out of the Shadow Coast Mountains & elsewhere? Sealing the Bore alone will not save their lives... remember the Trolloc Wars?




Reflects on some of your ideas:



Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
4) For property number 4, to make the Seal, we need a special type of people, who are not available in the Age of Legends. If we consider the Seals representing the beliefs of those people, an ideal that materialized so to speak, the strength of the Seal should be directly related to the strength of the ideal. "Order and belief brings strength." The strength of the Living Seal is dependent upon the order and belief of the people made up the Seal, and how strongly they believe in that ideal. While people and souls can be stronger than Cuendillar, it is not always so. Only with the right ideals and belief can this be realized.
This is 'Wheel of Time'. Souls of individuals are re-born across ALL Ages of Time.
Hence, a claim that "a special type of people" are "need(ed)" is absolutely false.

It's how individuals act which matters, not whether or not, they're "special". Just take a look at Birgitte's memories of her own past lives--a Murder, a General et la.



The Dragon's Peace
Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
In this context, the Dragon's Peace has an entirely different meaning than just no fighting among the nations. The Aiel, by becoming the Living Seal, has to be protected and respected by every nation, without a need to defend themselves ever again. They must prosper to ensure future generations of fighters against the DO. The Dragon's Peace is a necessary condition for the Aiel to prosper, and defend the world, rather than a cease fire imposed as a price of spoiling the Dragon's blood.
  1. What did Robert Jordan claim in writing about Fourth Age Titles? They are influenced but are NOT the same as Third Age titles.
  2. Who do is to be known as "The Dragon" in the Fourth Age?
  3. Who previously possessed the 'Sword of Justice'? Artur Hawkwing.
  4. Who is the re-born soul of Artur Hawkwing? Mat Cauthon.

Predictions:
  1. Who shall hold the Sword of Justice after Rand? Mat Cauthon.
  2. Who's Peace is the 'Dragon's Peace' of the Fourth Age? Mat Cauthon's Peace.

Quote:
Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.
—from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.

Author unknown, the Fourth Age
Source: The Eye of the World
Quote:
Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

—from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon,

Author unknown, the Fourth Age


Source: The Great Hunt

What is one reason to explain why the title of "Dragon" is so mixed publicly in the Fourth Age? Versus private knowledge of many major characters?


Mat Cauthon made a promise to Rand al'Thor, at Toman Head.
Quote:
As she started around among the others, stopping briefly by each, Rand went to his friends. When he tried to straighten Mat, Mat jerked and stared at him, then grabbed Rand’s coat with both hands. “Rand, I’d never tell anyone about—about you. I wouldn’t betray you. You have to believe that!” He looked worse than ever, but Rand thought it was mostly fright.

“I do,” Rand said. He wondered what lives Mat had lived, and what he had done. He must have told someone, or he wouldn’t be so anxious about it. He could not hold it against him. Those had been other Mats, not this one. Besides, after some of the alternatives he had seen for himself . . . ”I believe you. Perrin?”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 37 "What Might Be" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mat Cauthon, Verin, Perrin, Hurin, Loial, Ingtar, Ragan, Uno and others in scene

Yes, ironically in Fourth Age in the "public mind"--Mat Cauthon will be identified as the Dragon (a claim & prediction).


Egwene al'Vere will be happy in AMoL Book to learn she was NOT able to get rid of an Altaran rumor that the Aes Sedai are Dragonsworn.
Quote:
It would be dangerous, but she could find some way to make Mat retreat before sparks flew if it came to that. “Why, the way rumors spread, I wouldn’t be surprised if half of Altara thinks we are Dragonsworn in under a month.” That was one rumor she would have stopped if she knew how.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 39 “Possibilities” – Egwene al’Vere point of view; with Sheriam

Who did common people of the Maule in Tear see head for the Stone, before it fell?
Mat Cauthon.
Quote:
Ahead of him, the Stone of Tear loomed over the city, impregnable, a fortress besieged a hundred times, a stone on which a hundred armies had broken their teeth. And he had to get inside, somehow. And bring out three women. Somehow.

With a laugh that made even the sullen folk in the street look at him, he headed back for The White Crescent, uncaring of mud or the damp heat. He could feel the dice tumbling inside his head.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 52 "In Search of a Remedy' -- Mat Cauthon point of view

What did the last chapter of the Dragon Reborn book say?

Quote:
“Listen to this,” Moiraine said. “ ‘Lews Therin was mine, he is mine, and he will be mine, forever. I give him into your charge, to keep for me until I come.’ It is signed ‘Lanfear.’ ” The Aes Sedai turned that cool gaze on Mat. “And you thought it was done? You are ta’veren, Mat, a thread more crucial to the Pattern than most, and the sounder of the Horn of Valere. Nothing is done for you, yet.”

They were all looking at him. Nynaeve sadly, Egwene as though she had never seen him before, Elayne as if she expected him to change into someone else.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Moiraine, Rhuarc, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene al'Vere
Egwene has not thought of "who" Mat Cauthon is truly yet...
Elayne will desire Mat Cauthon to become the leader of all Aes Sedai... a Dragon... to save the Aes Sedai and his People (in AMoL)--during a scene in Tar Valon, with Gardeners below....


Elayne even has a DREAM about this very scene:

Quote:
Sleep slid in, and with it a dream, a boat with Leane sitting in the bow flirting with a man whose face was different every time Elayne looked. In the stern, Siuan and Nynaeve were struggling, each trying to steer in a different direction—until Elayne stood up and took charge. A captain keeping secrets could be reason enough for a mutiny if need be.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 30 “To Heal Again” – Elayne point of view; a Dream
A mutiny is coming... Elayne will end up supporting Mat Cauthon.


Why was Rhuarc needed by the Pattern to head to Tear?
Chuckles... to induce Mat Cauthon receive a "Maidens Kiss".


Who will see Justice done?
Mother Guenna... who is Siuan's very own mother. (a claim)

Quote:
Egwene did not believe Ailhuin Guenna’s dark eyes missed a great deal. “They stole some things, Ailhuin,” Nynaeve went on. “From my mother. And they did murder. We are here to see justice done.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 48 "Following the Craft" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; with Nynaeve, Elayne

Even Perrin as heard that the Sword of Justice is Artur Hawkwing's sword.
Quote:
One fellow, a Taraboner in a round, red hat and a mustache as thick as a bull’s horns, solemnly informed him that Hawkwing himself led these people, his legendary sword Justice in hand.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decisions" -- Perrin point of view; in Tear

Rand al'Thor is not the one to create Justice across the Lands... someone else will create the Dragon's Peace.

Quote:
He gave her a sidelong look, and a smile mocking enough to belong to Mat. “Could I really have hung her, for trying to kill a man who was plotting to kill me? Would there be more justice in that than in what I did?” The grin slid from his face. “Is there justice in anything I do?

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 21 "Into the Heart" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Moiraine, Egwene al'Vere and others
Who previously brought Justice to the Lands, according to Elyas?
Quote:
Elyas glanced over his shoulder at her, muttering, “What do they teach you village whelps?” He snorted and straightened back to his watching, but he went on talking. “Artur Paendrag Tanreall, Artur Hawkwing, the High King, united all the lands from the Great Blight to the Sea of Storms, from the Aryth Ocean to the Aiel Waste, and even some beyond the Waste. He even sent armies the other side of the Aryth Ocean. The stories say he ruled the whole world, but what he really did rule was enough for any man outside of a story. And he brought peace and justice to the land.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 29 "Eyes Without Pity" -- Perrin point of view; with Elyas, Egwene al'Vere, and a bunch of Wolves
Quote:
“First you sound as if you despise him (Artur Hawkwing),” Egwene said, “and now you sound as if you admire him.” She shook her head.

Elyas turned to look at her, a flat, unblinking stare. “Get some more tea now, if you want any. I want the fire out before dark.”

Perrin could make out the eye clearly now, despite the failing light. It was bigger than a man’s head, and the shadows falling across it made it seem like a raven’s eye, hard and black and without pity.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 29 "Eyes Without Pity" -- Perrin point of view; with Elyas, Egwene al'Vere, and a bunch of Wolves
Chuckles... what does the Raven represent within the Seanchan Empire?

Quote:
A raven, symbol of the Imperial family; the Tower of Ravens, symbol of Imperial justice.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 38 "Hidden Faces" -- Egeanin point of view; in Tanchico


Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
I also have a lingerly thought that if there is one thing RJ may want to say in this series, based on his personal combat experience in Vietnam, it will be whether or not the U.S. has paid enough attention to the mental health of combat veterans. Those Aiel who are driven mad will have proper medical care in the book, and discussed as such in the setting of the series. What this says about us can be implied.
Terez's previously noted Robert Jordan's Blog entry about Ganesha.

Ganesha is mostly likely embodied in the character of Valan Luca.
Valan Luca has an important role to play, next to Mat Cauthon in AMoL book....





Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
Part 3)

Having said that, it becomes obvious what my personal idea is, about question B), How will Life Threads be made into a Seal. I took it to be self evident, that Perrin, the Blacksmith, will make new Seals out of human Threads with his magic Hammer, in the Dream World. Since Perrin put some of his own soul into the Hammer, I envision him leaving the Hammer there, and the Hammer will keep on working the Forge on its own, adding future life threads to reinforce the Seal, for eternity. That is a much better use of a magic hammer than killing mere Trollocs.
Unfortunately, this self-evident assumption flies into the face of apt prior Foreshadowing of Perrin's Death. Perrin is not physically going to be alive, when Rand Inc head for Shayol Ghul during the Last Battle. He'll be dead already.


One atypical set of descriptive foreshadowing indicates as much, in Moiraine's thoughts:
Quote:
A blacksmith's hammer with the head split in two lay next to a cracked wooden bowl that held a single fat firedrop fine enough to grace a crown. A gilded barrel clock with the hand frozen at just before noon, or midnight, stood besides a steel-backed gauntlet stained black with what Moiraine was sure was blood. They all the rest were mementos of well over a hundred years wearing the shawl.


New Spring: the Novel -- Chapter 7 'The Itch' -- Moiraine point of view; with Kerene Nagashi of the Green Ajah
  • "Noon", "Midnight" each have a special meaning in WoT. "Noon", also is specific Day in the NE Calendar.
  • It seems that the Kerene of the Green Ajah, knew that a Blacksmith will die at Noon... and that his hammer will be split in two.

If one desires more textual evidence, and stronger at that... I can provide that.


Remember what Brandon Sanderson mentioned "Chekov's Gun on a Mantel" during a recent book tour?

Well, Perrin wrote a Letter to Faile in Two Rivers... he placed it on a Mantel.
A Mantle found within the Winespring Inn.
Quote:
I will not ask your forgiveness for what I did. I do not know if you could give it, but I will not ask. You are more precious to me than life. Never think I have abandoned you. When the sun shines on you, it is my smile. When you hear the breeze stir through the apple blossoms, it is my whisper that I love you. My love is yours forever.

Perrin


For a moment he studied what he had written. It did not say enough, but it would have to do. He did not have the right words any more than he had time.

Carefully blotting the damp ink with sand, he folded the pages together. He very nearly wrote “Faile Bashere” on the outside before making it “Faile Aybara.” He realized he did not even know if a wife took her husband’s name in Saldaea; there were places where they did not. Well, she had married him in the Two Rivers; she would have to put up with Two Rivers customs.

He placed the letter in the middle of the mantel over the fireplace—perhaps it would reach her eventually—and adjusted the wide red marriage ribbon behind his collar so it hung down his lapels properly. He was supposed to wear it for seven days, an announcement to everyone who saw him that he was newly wed. “I will try,” he told the letter softly. Faile had tried to tie one in his beard; he wished he had let her.

“Pardon, Lord Perrin?” Ban said, still shifting his feet anxiously. “I didn’t hear.” Aram was chewing his lip, his eyes wide and frightened.

“Time to see to the day’s work,” Perrin said. Perhaps the letter would reach her. Somehow. He took his bow from the table and slung it on his back. Axe and quiver already hung at his belt. “And don’t call me that!”


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 56 "Goldeneyes" -- Perrin point of view; in Two Rivers
  • Faile has also learned that Perrin is a Wolf Dreamer, for sure by Towers of Midnight book.
  • Once Faile learns of Elayne's way to reach the Dream Worlds... I believe she will find him in a Dream. (This assumes his Star Constellation is not utterly destroyed, ugh... another can of worms! A complex topic.)



What is stronger than the Dark One's Touch?

Love, Sacrifice, Desire.

Two Females, and a Male together as One, can stop the Dark One.
The Bore is goner.
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Last edited by FelixPax; 01-09-2011 at 09:53 AM. Reason: fixed awkward sentences; typo
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Old 01-04-2011, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
  1. What did Robert Jordan claim in writing about Fourth Age Titles? They are influenced but are NOT the same as Third Age titles.
  2. Who do is to be known as "The Dragon" in the Fourth Age?
  3. Who previously possessed the 'Sword of Justice'? Artur Hawkwing.
  4. Who is the re-born soul of Artur Hawkwing? Mat Cauthon.
Sorry to poke a rather obvious hole in this, but Matrim Cauthon cannot possibly be the reborn soul of Artur Hawking. He may be a leader, and possibly a Hero in his own right, but the events at Falme rule out any possibility of Mat being Artur Hawking. We know that Rand was a Hero. Rand has been reborn, and thus, is not summoned by the Horn's call any longer.

Artur Hawking, however, was summoned by the Horn's Call because he had not been spun out by the wheel once more. Furthermore, who sounded the Horn? Matrim Cauthon. If Mat blew the Horn, and Artur Hawking answered the call, don't you think that just makes it a tad unlikely that Mat is Artur Hawking reborn?

OT: I'm a bit pressed for time, so I can't say as much as I would like, but I do like your theory quite a bit. However, I do agree with Terez that the idea is rather implausible.
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Old 01-04-2011, 12:48 PM
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Default Mat Cauthon, Hawkwing, Aemon... and the Pattern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SourceOdin View Post
Sorry to poke a rather obvious hole in this, but Matrim Cauthon cannot possibly be the reborn soul of Artur Hawking. He may be a leader, and possibly a Hero in his own right, but the events at Falme rule out any possibility of Mat being Artur Hawking.
That's what we do around here, attempt to poke holes in another's interpretation of the series. Why? To figure out puzzles, at least that's my point of view, at this time.

Your position is I believe the most common one on the forum boards, whereas my position on the question of Mat Cauthon's soul is relatively new. Cauthon soul's was in another Age: Prince/King Aemon, Artur Hawkwing. Why? How is this possible? Then, please read the following 3 postings:


Aemon, Hawkwing & Mat Cauthon
(dated 01-01-2011, 10:58 AM; in a thread called "Callandor in an Onyx Fist")
Talking to Oneself. Seeing Oneself, repeated?
(dated 01-03-2011, 07:14 AM; in a thread called “Callandor in an Onyx Fist” )

What is Death? For a Person, for a Star, Constellations, Moon & Sun?
(dated 12-30-2010, 05:01 PM; in a thread called "It's so obvious now on things are going to play out.)


Quote:
OT: I'm a bit pressed for time, so I can't say as much as I would like, but I do like your theory quite a bit. However, I do agree with Terez that the idea is rather implausible.
After a while the total number exceptions in the story, hint at a different underlining narrative of what is possible.
  • Mat Cauthon was dead, and yet Olver appears...
  • Mierin was imprisoned in a Dreamless Sleep, and yet Rhea weds Prince Caar...
  • Loial claims Mierin told him, that is was possible to "speak" to oneself...in a Mirror World.
  • Lan's claims of what is possible, during Nynaeve's Accept Test in another World--"It is real. Whatever you want to be real, we can make real together, you and I." (TGH, Chapter 23 "The Testing")
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Last edited by FelixPax; 01-04-2011 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:42 PM
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Very nice theory. I like that you dare to offer explanations to the details of this tricky subject. I also like your story thematic tie-ins throughout the theory.

I once wrote a theory of how the bore was going to be healed as opposed to sealed. The straight forward assumption/premise that the Pattern is the prison has led you down a similar yet different and immensely more fleshed out path. I like this line of thought, and I like your idea of "using the same material as the Creator" to answer the question of how to seal the prison as good as the Creator. If the prison is made of threads and threads are human lives, then we need to use human life to seal the prison.
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twicemarked View Post
My first theory here. I have seen a few interesting theory on what Rand will do to win. This is a theory on how people other than Rand will contribute to the Last Battle. This is a very long post, so I put some supporting quotes to the end.

Part 1)
Based on the properties of the current Seals, we can deduce that to properly seal the Bore,

the new Seal must satisfy several properties:

1) It needs to be at least as strong as Cuendillar. Anything less would be destroyed
instantly.

2) It needs to last for eternity. The current Seals weakened to the point of breaking after
three thousand years, and three thousand years is just not long enough.

3) It is desirable that the DO's counter stroke during the sealing process, if any, does not
cause another Breaking of the World.

4) It is desirable to have a good reason why the Aes Sedais in the Age of Legend can not come
up with the same answer then, other than they held the idiot ball.




It may well be that only the cuendillar disk the DO is currently working on will felt evil.

The others, broken or otherwise, will not.

"The seal was weak!", because cuendillar was not strong enough to absorb the counter strike.
Perhaps using Christmas fruit cake to seal the Bore. The stuff is tough as nails and has a half-life...
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Old 01-05-2011, 04:26 PM
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I like the idea of Perrin's new hammer playing a part. I just saw it as a special hammer that will never break. Kinda like the Heron swords of old. Not necessarily having a "magical" or supernatural use apart from the never breaking stuff. Although I suppose his blacksmith background and the hammer to build definitely supports this idea.

About the Aiel having to return to the way of the Leaf. As I've said in my own thread before, I don't think they should need to return to that. It's not who they are, who they've become. So the Aiel need to be pacifists even though that's not what they believe in, but other people don't need to be pacifists because they don't believe on that? Seems inconsistent. With pacifists and them not fighting, why do they let others fight for them and defend them? Seems hypocritical then. Reminds me of the Amish (farmers) who don't believe in the use of electricity and yet they hire people who will use electricity and technology such as tractors, lights, etc. to do tasks in their farms. Not very consistent.

I don't think human threads will be used in the sealing of the Bore. Could be that they reseal the Bore in a similar manner that the Creator had sealed it, but I'm not sure that it will be with human threads.... As Terez pointed out everything in the pattern has a human thread. And a chair isn't human and therefore doesn't have a human thread. I would think the DO's prison doesn't have human threads and therefore wouldn't/shouldn't be sealed with human threads. Doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:35 PM
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Okay for the future of the Aiel:

They to serve Aes Sedai
Wear camouflage
Are the best warriors in the world, pretty much
Are tough as nails

Sound like anything currently in existence? Like, say, Warders?

Anyways, I still think Rand will use the TP to seal the bore somehow. But I guess not if the TP will fry you at SG... unless you have a sa'angreal. And three becoming one, do we know these are people? otherwise it could be TP, Saidin and Saidar...
  #11  
Old 01-05-2011, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Juan View Post
I don't think human threads will be used in the sealing of the Bore. Could be that they reseal the Bore in a similar manner that the Creator had sealed it, but I'm not sure that it will be with human threads.... As Terez pointed out everything in the pattern has a human thread. And a chair isn't human and therefore doesn't have a human thread. I would think the DO's prison doesn't have human threads and therefore wouldn't/shouldn't be sealed with human threads. Doesn't make sense to me.
Want to try that point again -- possibly when you're unimpaired?

I think a "human/god sacrifice" is exactly what may be required to rebuild the Pattern over the Bore. We've certainly had enough Foreshadowing and Prophecy to tell us that Rand's "Blood on the Rocks of Shayol Ghul" and his Death are going to be involved in T'G.

You may be correct that "non-human threads" or even "inanimate threads" are going to be involved, but it isn't going to be like planting a few ivy vines along a fence line then just sitting back and waiting for the barrier to fill in. It's going to take human intervention -- human threads -- to espalier the vines into a thick, even, barrier.
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Old 01-05-2011, 06:03 PM
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Yeah I submitted a theory about my ideas on a solution, and I'm kinda waiting to see whether Tam will post it.

As to the sacrifice. I think it may occur, but I don't think that such a sacrifice is REQUIRED to rebuild the pattern over the bore.

Also, I'm not sure if rebuilding the pattern over the Bore is the best solution. I won't get into the why I believe this because I don't want to give my theory away yet.. I'm really looking forward to having that discussion on the theory page if Tam approves it.

But in case I was misunderstood I'll try to explain myself again. I mean I don't think human threads will be the threads that actually go over the Bore. IF I were to assume that the solution was indeed repairing the Bore by rebuilding the pattern, then I'd say the threads used would be inanimate threads directed by humans.

Imagine a hole in a wall. The material is not made out of "human threads" but rather of the material used in the construction of the wall. Let's assume bricks and mortar, which are inanimate things. So to fix this hole, the human needs to use a sort of plaster to go over the hole. But that's a lame fix. You can't really effectively place a brick where the hole is and try and place the mortar. The bricks that are still there will make that task impossible. Instead, you tear down the wall, and rebuild it. The materials used are still inanimate or non-living, so non-human threads. But the wall was built by humans, or human threads. But the actual material in the wall isn't human. That's what I'm trying to say.
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Old 01-05-2011, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan
But in case I was misunderstood I'll try to explain myself again. I mean I don't think human threads will be the threads that actually go over the Bore. IF I were to assume that the solution was indeed repairing the Bore by rebuilding the pattern, then I'd say the threads used would be inanimate threads directed by humans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BWB
Section 1
THE WHEEL AND THE POWER

Chapter 1
The Wheel and the Pattern
What is the Wheel of Time? Imagine a great cosmic loom in the shape of a seven-spoked wheel, slowly spinning through eternity, weaving the fabric of the universe. The wheel, put in place by the creator, is time itself, ever turning and returning. The fabric it weaves is constructed from the threads of lives and events, interlaced into a design, the Great Pattern, which is the whole of existence and reality, past, present and future.

Within the influence of this Lace of Ages are not only the earth and stone of the physical world, but other worlds and universes, other dimensions, other possibilities. The Wheel touches what might be, what might have been and what is. It touches the world of dreams as well as the world of waking.
Inanimate objects may have "Threads," but according to the BWB, they aren't part of what thePAttern is constructed from -- The Pattern is constructed from "Lives and Events."

If the Pattern is indeed the DO's prison rather than a tapestry covering the bare structure of the Prison, then the "patch" must also be "constructed of lives and events."

Part of the problem with the Seals is that they are inanimate and simply "plug a hole" instead of repairing or Healing the damage that created the "hole." While there was a lot of death and destruction involved in placing the Seals, there doesn't seem to have been any "sacrifice" involved.

The Foreshadowing and Foretelling thus far certainly seem to lead to a Sacrifice -- on a par with the Cross or certain pagan planting rituals that required literal human sacrifice of a "winter king" (or a virgin) to fertilize the fields -- and there was nothing of that kind of commitment or intent in the Strike On Shayol Ghul.
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Last edited by Sodas; 01-11-2011 at 01:09 AM.
  #14  
Old 01-09-2011, 05:29 AM
twicemarked twicemarked is offline
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I would like to thank all who read it and did not post a TLNR.

A few responses.

First, if Mat is the reborn soul of Artur Hawking, and marries the direct descendant of Artur Hawking, yikes.

Second, I want to clarify that the Aiel are not pacifist, at least not for a thousand years.

Aviendha's example is interesting. When she started her training to become a WO, she can still fight physically with a spear in need. It is just frowned upon, at least in public. Amys still practiced her spears and bows in the T'A'R in TSR, in the scene she met Egwene. Fighting is just not in the job description of a WO.

When the Aiel becomes a Living Seal, they can still fight, be it human or shadow spawn. They just don't go out and seek such a fight any more.

We could grow vegetable in the back yard. But we mainly buy them from the supermarket. We have something better to do, well for most of us anyway.
 

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