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  #1  
Old 08-05-2011, 03:55 AM
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Default tSR: Manetheren

Since these references come so close together I'm not sure if it's been discussed already. But, anyways, in tSR, during Rand's travel through the Glass Spires in Ruidean, he sees this:
Quote:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 26 - The Dedicated
Jonai stood at the edge of the cliff staring out westward over the sun sparkled water. A hundred leagues in that direction lay Comelle. Had lain Comelle. Comelle had clung to the mountains overlooking the sea. A hundred leagues west, where the sea now ran. If Alnora were still alive, perhaps it would have been easier to take. Without her dreams, he scarcely knew where to go or what to do. Without her, he hardly cared to live. He felt every gray hair as he turned to trudge back to the wagons, waiting a mile away. Fewer wagons, now, and showing wear. Fewer people, too, a handful of thousands where there had been tens. But too many for the remaining wagons. No one rode now save children too small to walk.
The BWB says about Comelle:

Quote:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
The coastal city of Comelle, third largest in the world, overlooked the sea with breathtaking splendor from its mountainside. Its immense glass, crystal and metal structures clung to the steep rock like a shining flower bursting from the stone. Adanza was reported to thrive with vitality in its beauty matched only by the vitality of its people. Even Tzora, the smallest of the major cities, was known for its multihued glass towers, in a wide variety of geometric shapes, which glittered like jewels in the sun.
then, when Perrin arrives in Two Rivers

Quote:
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 28 - To the Tower of Ghenjei
From peak to peak he sped in blurred motion, calling, seeking. The mountains lay empty beneath him, except for deer and other game. Yet there were occasional signs of men. Ancient signs. Twice great carved figures took nearly an entire mountainside, and in another place strange angular letters two spans high had been incised across a cliff a shade too smooth and sheer. Weathering had worn away the figures' faces, and eyes less sharp than his might have taken the letters themselves for the work of wind and rain. Mountains and cliffs gave way to the Sand Hills, great rolling mounds sparsely covered with tough grass and stubborn bushes, once the shore of a great sea before the Breaking. And suddenly he saw another man, atop a sandy hill.
Of course, it's possible that there was more than one great inland sea before the Breaking and it's well known that mountains came and went during the Breaking, so it's somewhat unlikely that the Mountains of Mist are the same mountains where Comelle used to be, but it does seem quite possible that perhaps Manetheren was previously known as Comelle or founded primarily by the fugitives from Comelle. thoughts? ideas?
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Old 08-05-2011, 04:54 AM
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Default Alternative locations & clues

Now that's quite a tough puzzle to try to figure out: Comelle's location.


I'm not so sure the Sand Hills is the place, where Comelle was located.


Off-hand two other places come to mind:
  • Windbiter's Finger
  • West of Arad Doman to Saldaea's coastline
Of course, there's a problem with the 2nd option I gave above. Saldaea considered a Northern place, yet Arad Doman orientation is more fuzzy in the larger scheme of things. Wasn't the land still being altered through, during Jonai pov?


Granted ghosts held repeated funeral ceremonies over the ocean waters off Bandar Eban, Arad Doman in ToM book. Implies a civilization was located there in past, where water now lies.


Clues: Items found in the Ocean

  1. Cuendillar was found off Windbiter's Finger, according to Mother Guenna (TDR).
  2. Amyrlin's study possesses stone salvaged from a nameless city swallowed by the Sea of Storms. It's referenced at least twice.
Quote:
Stone like glittering pearls framed the tall, arched windows that let onto the balcony overlooking the Amyrlin’s private garden, the only stone like it known, salvaged from a nameless city swallowed by the Sea of Storms during the Breaking of the World. A room of power, a reflection of Amyrlins who had made thrones dance to their calling for nearly three thousand years. And they did not even ask her opinion.

The Fires of Heaven, Prologue "The First Sparks Fall" -- Elaida pov

Quote:
Gleaming pearly stone framed tall arched windows that let onto the balcony overlooking the Amyrlin’s private garden; that stone had been salvaged from a nameless city submerged in the Sea of Storms during the Breaking of the World, and no one had ever found its like elsewhere.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 7 "A Matter of Thought" -- Elayne pov; in TAR
Ever notice how Siuan has more information about this Pearly Stone or Glittering Pearls material, than Elayne does?


Did Siuan learn of the cuendillar found off Windbiter's Finger during a prior trip to Tear? So is this nameless city in the ocean, Comelle or not?


Clue: Sa'angreal on Land

If one's to build a giant female sa'angreal, wouldn't be logic to try to build it near a major city?
Was the Tremalking land mass possibly once connected to Comelle? Or not?
Perhaps Tremalking was on the other side of that former Inland Sea, from Comelle? (Conjecture)

Last edited by FelixPax; 08-05-2011 at 04:59 AM.
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Old 08-05-2011, 05:18 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
If one's to build a giant female sa'angreal, wouldn't be logic to try to build it near a major city?
Was the Tremalking land mass possibly once connected to Comelle? Or not?
Perhaps Tremalking was on the other side of that former Inland Sea, from Comelle? (Conjecture)
Not if you were building the most powerful sa'angreal ever made for a woman during a time of war. It would be the equivalent of building a nuclear power plant near to a major population centre, even with the added safety measure of the access key.
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Old 08-05-2011, 05:19 AM
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the pearly stone seems to refer more to Paaran Disen:

Quote:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Wheel and the Pattern
According to all sources, the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends had a very loose sort of organization. To what extent that organization was part of the world government is not known; clearly the Aes Sedai were highly influential, with considerable power, at least at times, but equally clearly they were not the entire government and did not necessarily dominate it. They had their own internal governing structure through the Hall of the Servants, which was the core of the guild that controlled and regulated all those who could channel. This guild had branches in every city, town and village that housed Aes Sedai. In large cities the guild hall was usually an impressive building. In small towns or villages the guild often met in someone’s home, temporarily dedicated for that purpose. The main Hall of the Servants, located in the capital city of Paaran Disen, was described in one holographic fragment as having “massive columned entrances, large ornate doorways, and polished floors of glowing white elstone.
Of course, that doesn't mean that elstone wasn't used at Comelle, it just means that Paaran Disen was famous for it, had a lot of it - enough to wash ashore thousands of years later.
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Old 08-05-2011, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Of course, it's possible that there was more than one great inland sea before the Breaking and it's well known that mountains came and went during the Breaking, so it's somewhat unlikely that the Mountains of Mist are the same mountains where Comelle used to be, but it does seem quite possible that perhaps Manetheren was previously known as Comelle or founded primarily by the fugitives from Comelle. thoughts? ideas?
It seems that the Aiel were on the shore of the Aryth when the comment was made, which would mean that Comelle was however many leagues west of, say, Arad Doman or Toman Head. The Mountains of Mist are probably the same distance in the other direction. They are definitely pre-Breaking mountains, as opposed to the Spine of the World, but the sea they bordered has dried out, and so if Comelle had been there (again, unlikely the Aiel were that confused about where it had been), then it wouldn't be buried under water - it would have ruins in the Mountains of Mist. The Sand Hills are on the eastern side of the mountains, so the area of the Two Rivers is part of what was once under water, and Comelle, far to the west, must have been on the shore of a different sea.
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It seems that the Aiel were on the shore of the Aryth when the comment was made, which would mean that Comelle was however many leagues west of, say, Arad Doman or Toman Head. The Mountains of Mist are probably the same distance in the other direction. They are definitely pre-Breaking mountains, as opposed to the Spine of the World, but the sea they bordered has dried out, and so if Comelle had been there (again, unlikely the Aiel were that confused about where it had been), then it wouldn't be buried under water - it would have ruins in the Mountains of Mist. The Sand Hills are on the eastern side of the mountains, so the area of the Two Rivers is part of what was once under water, and Comelle, far to the west, must have been on the shore of a different sea.
you're right, it's very possible they were on the shore of Aryth, Then again, it's possible they were on the shore of some other sparkling expanse of water. My main question is, how long did the breaking of the world last? The BWB says:
Quote:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: The Breaking of the World
Various fragmentary sources put the actual duration of the Breaking – that is, the major geological and climatic upheavals – at anywhere from 239 to 344 years. Since these sources date from the days between the end of the Breaking and the founding of the compact of the Ten Nations, it is possible that some of these writers had access to still earlier source material, but none can be taken as definitive.
So an estimation of a couple of hundred years. Now, since Jonai wasn't a channeler he would have had a normal lifespan. He's seen as an adult when the Aiel set off from (I think) Paaran Disen, which makes the time of the quote.... no more than 50-70 years from the beginning of the Breaking, allowing for some years of the Breaking to already have lasted when he left with the Aiel. It's entirely possible that he was looking at the same sea where Comelle had been, from the other shore of the sea - just the sea hadn't completely dried out yet (that's the way I actually read the original quote to begin with)

on a different note, I didn't know that the Mountains of Mist predate the Breaking. what cool stuff must be found there... such as Comelle
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:33 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
you're right, it's very possible they were on the shore of Aryth, Then again, it's possible they were on the shore of some other sparkling expanse of water. My main question is, how long did the breaking of the world last? The BWB says:
So an estimation of a couple of hundred years. Now, since Jonai wasn't a channeler he would have had a normal lifespan. He's seen as an adult when the Aiel set off from (I think) Paaran Disen, which makes the time of the quote.... no more than 50-70 years from the beginning of the Breaking, allowing for some years of the Breaking to already have lasted when he left with the Aiel.
Normal lifespans were much longer at the time. Jonai was 63 years old when the Aiel first left Paaran Disen, and the Breaking began before he was born.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR26
Jonai hurried down the empty streets, trying not to look at shattered buildings and dead chora trees. All dead. At least the last of the long abandoned jo-cars had been hauled away. Aftershocks still troubled the ground beneath his feet. He wore his work clothes, his cadin'sor, of course, though the work he had been given was nothing he had been trained for. He was sixty-three, in the prime of life, not yet old enough for gray hairs, but he felt a tired old man.
So the Breaking had been going on for at least 70 years when they left Paaran Disen, and the quote in question was probably about ten years later.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yks
on a different note, I didn't know that the Mountains of Mist predate the Breaking. what cool stuff must be found there... such as Comelle
This came up in KOD:

Quote:
Vanin made a sound like he was swallowing his tongue. “Find another pass?” he muttered. “Find another pass, the man says. You don’t just go find another pass in new mountains like the Damonas. Why do you think I only knew the one?” He was shaken to admit that much. Before this, he had been adamant that he had only heard of it.

“What are you talking about?” Mat demanded, and Vanin explained. At great length, for him.

“An Aes Sedai explained it to me, once. You see, there’s old mountains. They was there before the Breaking, maybe on the bottom of the sea or the like. They have passes all over, broad and gentle. You can ride into those and as long you keep your head and your direction and have enough supplies, sooner or later you come out the other side. And then there’s mountains made during the Breaking.” The fat man turned his head and spat copiously. “Passes in those are narrow, twisty things, and sometimes they aren’t really what you’d call passes at all. Ride into one of those, and you can wander around till your food runs out trying to find a way to the other side. Loss of that pass is going to hurt a lot of folks who use it for what you might call untaxed goods, and men’ll die before they find a new one that gets them all the way through. We go into the Damonas with that pass gone, likely we’ll all die, too. Them as doesn’t turn back in time and hasn’t gotten their heads so turned around they can’t find the way back.”

I also took a geology course, and I know enough to say that the description of the Mountains of Mist is that of old mountains, like the Smokies, and the description of the Spine is much more similar to the Himalayas, some of the newest mountains in the world. And of course, the Spine is much newer than the Himalayas. I could be wrong, though. It may be that the Mountains of Mist are new, too.
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:45 AM
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I'm searching for it now, but as I recall there was mention of one of the boys seeing a mountain (maybe in the ranges of Kinslayer's Dagger?) with strange ruins a long way up, and verin saying something about an old city?

Gah. So vague...

ETA: It's Chapter 28 of tGH, for SURE. I just can't find it right now...
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Old 08-05-2011, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Normal lifespans were much longer at the time. Jonai was 63 years old when the Aiel first left Paaran Disen, and the Breaking began before he was born.


So the Breaking had been going on for at least 70 years when they left Paaran Disen, and the quote in question was probably about ten years later.
I knew that. My only excuse is, I need a weekend, the old brain's fizzled.

Quote:
ETA:


This came up in KOD:


I also took a geology course, and I know enough to say that the description of the Mountains of Mist is that of old mountains, like the Smokies, and the description of the Spine is much more similar to the Himalayans, some of the newest mountains in the world. And of course, the Spine is much newer than the Himalayans. I could be wrong, though. It may be that the Mountains of Mist are new, too.
hmm... ok, so if not Comelle, what WAS there before the Breaking? something must still remain, no?
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
hmm... ok, so if not Comelle, what WAS there before the Breaking? something must still remain, no?
Fish bones. No really, I'm sure there are some ruins of some sort in the Mountains, but they are unexplored at the moment because it's considered bad luck to go in the Mountains in the Two Rivers, and the west coast nations are mostly settled along the coast. The Ghealdanin and the Amadicians might know, but we don't see much of them, and Perrin indicates in TDR that the superstition is not limited to the Two Rivers. And later, Faile:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDR
"Every queen of Manetheren was an Aes Sedai, and the king the Warder bound to her. I can't imagine a place like that, but that is what the books say. It was a large land – most of Andor and Ghealdan and more besides – but the capital, the city itself, was in the Mountains of Mist. That is where I think the Horn is. Unless you four lead me to it."

His hackles stirred. She was lecturing him as if he were an untaught village lout. "You'll not find the Horn or Manetheren. The city was destroyed during the Trolloc Wars, when the last queen drew too much of the One Power to destroy the Dreadlords who had killed her husband." Moiraine had told him the names of that king and queen, but he did not remember them.

"Not in Manetheren, farmboy," she said calmly, "though a land such as that would make a good hiding place. But there were other nations, other cities, in the Mountains of Mist, so old that not even Aes Sedai remember them. And think of all those stories about it being bad luck to enter the mountains. What better place for the Horn to be hidden than in one of those forgotten cities."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
I'm searching for it now, but as I recall there was mention of one of the boys seeing a mountain (maybe in the ranges of Kinslayer's Dagger?) with strange ruins a long way up, and verin saying something about an old city?
Not Verin. Asmodean:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOH 20
High on the other side, so far up that he was not sure he was seeing what he thought, just below the snow line, stood something even stranger. Something that made the first monument of a few thousand years a commonplace. He could have sworn it was the remnants of shattered buildings, shining gray against the darker mountain, and stranger still, what appeared to be a dock of the same material, as for ships, slanting drunkenly down the mountain. If he was not imagining it, that had to date from before the Breaking. The face of the world had been changed utterly in those years. This could well have been an ocean's floor, before. He would have to ask Asmodean. Even if he had had the time, he did not think he would want to try reaching that altitude to find out for himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOH 21
"What do you know about those ruins up near the snow line? They must come from the Age of Legends."

Asmodean did not even glance up the mountain. "This world is very changed from the world I... went to sleep in." He sounded weary, and he shivered slightly. "What I know of what lies where, I have learned since waking." The mournful sounds of "The March of Death" rose from his harp. "That could be what is left of the city where I was born, for all I know. Shorelle was a port."
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:35 AM
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Fish bones. No really, I'm sure there are some ruins of some sort in the Mountains, but they are unexplored at the moment because it's considered bad luck to go in the Mountains in the Two Rivers, and the west coast nations are mostly settled along the coast. The Ghealdanin and the Amadicians might know, but we don't see much of them, and Perrin indicates in TDR that the superstition is not limited to the Two Rivers.
well, this is turning into a stream of consciousness thread. I'm a bit intrigued by the similarities of Comelle and Shorelle. And Manetherendrelle. We know that Manetherendrelle translates as "Waters of the Mountain Home" so perhaps... the -relle/ -melle ending stands for "Water(s of)". Mountain Home sounds like the sort of a name a ragtag group of homeless people would give their new home in the times of peril so that might indicate that Manetheren was established during the Breaking. Maybe.

From the description of Shorelle from BWB it's a bit unlikely that the ruins are indeed Asmodean's hometown Shorelle (it sounds too small, wouldn't leave enough ruins behind to be visible off a mountainside from far away)

Quote:
TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Asmodean
Probably the man among the Forsaken with the most unusual reason for turning to the shadow is Asmodean. A dark-eyed, dark-haired, handsome man, Joar Addam Nessosin was an acclaimed composer before the War of the Shadow. Born in the small port city of Shorelle (location unknown), he was a child prodigy, in both composition and performance on a wide range of instruments. (Of these only the harp and several sorts of flute would be familiar in the modern era. He also played the shama, the balfone, the corea and the obaen, but of these instruments nothing remains except their names).
Shorelle is described as a small port city but Comelle was the 3rd biggest city in AOL.
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Last edited by yks 6nnetu hing; 08-05-2011 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
well, this is turning into a stream of consciousness thread. I'm a bit intrigued by the similarities of Comelle and Shorelle. And Manetherendrelle. We know that Manetherendrelle translates as "Waters of the Mountain Home" so perhaps... the -relle/ -melle ending stands for "Water(s of)". Mountain Home sounds like the sort of a name a ragtag group of homeless people would give their new home in the times of peril so that might indicate that Manetheren was established during the Breaking. Maybe.
All of the Ogier-built cities were built during the Breaking, or at least during the years of exile until the stedding were rediscovered. Tar Valon was one of the last to be built, I think.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:48 AM
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From the description of Shorelle from BWB it's a bit unlikely that the ruins are indeed Asmodean's hometown Shorelle (it sounds too small, wouldn't leave enough ruins behind to be visible off a mountainside from far away)
I tried to find a small port town somewhere, for comparison, and I made the mistake of looking in Washington. Apparently Wiki has some moral reason against giving useful maps of that state. Anyways ... eventually I manage to come up with Westport, Washington, USA. That port town has, according to Wikipedia, 2,099 inhabitants, which makes it a "small port city", I would say. But the bloody town does cover over 4 square miles on land (11 square kilometer), which should leave plenty of features to spot from afar, if it happened to end up in a low erosion area.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:19 AM
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Not Verin. Asmodean:
You're my damn hero. I spent way too long searching for that! Thanks!

So, my point was, *that* could have been Comelle.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:23 AM
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You're my damn hero. I spent way too long searching for that! Thanks!

So, my point was, *that* could have been Comelle.
I've just thought of something else T said about my original quote: Jonai was looking across the Water towards West. if Comelle was in Kinslayer's Dagger, then Jonai must've been looking from where the Spine of the World now is, or beyond. Which is possible, seeing as there are several mentions that the Waste wasn't always quite so desolate as it is now.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:29 AM
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I've just thought of something else T said about my original quote: Jonai was looking across the Water towards West. if Comelle was in Kinslayer's Dagger, then Jonai must've been looking from where the Spine of the World now is, or beyond. Which is possible, seeing as there are several mentions that the Waste wasn't always quite so desolate as it is now.
It's unlikely, since descriptions of the geography in previous passages make it pretty clear they were wandering around Randland proper. This was their first encounter with the Spine:

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His name was Rhodric, and he was nearly twenty. The sun was a golden blister in the sky, but he kept his veil up and his eyes alert. His spears were ready – one in his right hand, three held with his small bullhide buckler – and he was ready. Jeordam was down on the brown grass flat to the south of the hills, where most of the bushes were puny and withered. The old man's hair was white, like that thing called snow the old ones talked of, but his eyes were sharp, and watching the welldiggers haul up filled waterbags would not occupy all of his attention.

Mountains rose to the north and east, the northern range tall and sharp and white-tipped but dwarfed by the eastern monsters. Those looked as if the world was trying to touch the heavens, and perhaps did. Maybe that white was snow? He would not find out. Faced with this, the Jenn must decide to turn east. They had trailed north along that mountainous wall for long months, painfully dragging their wagons behind them, trying to deny the Aiel that followed them. At least there had been water when they crossed a river, even if not much. It had been years since Rhodric had seen a river he could not wade across; most were only cracked dry day away from the mountains. He hoped the rains would come again, and make things green once more. He remembered when the world was green.
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:53 AM
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It's unlikely, since descriptions of the geography in previous passages make it pretty clear they were wandering around Randland proper. This was their first encounter with the Spine:
Threre's not much chance that West and East meant something different before the Breaking than they do now, is there?
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Old 08-05-2011, 08:57 AM
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Threre's not much chance that West and East meant something different before the Breaking than they do now, is there?
It's doubtful, seeing as how they're generally associated with the rising and setting of the sun.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:14 AM
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Of course, there is the possibility that, while they were busy rearranging the entire geography of the world, those madmen turned around a continent, so that what once would have been in the west, now is in the east (or vice versa). Plate tectonics is doing the same right now, though usually not quite as rapidly as that.
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:34 AM
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Of course, there is the possibility that, while they were busy rearranging the entire geography of the world, those madmen turned around a continent, so that what once would have been in the west, now is in the east (or vice versa). Plate tectonics is doing the same right now, though usually not quite as rapidly as that.
But the Blight and Shayol Ghul remained in the north? That's a neat trick.
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