art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Archived: General Wheel of Time Discussion - 05/2008 - 03/2012
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:11 PM
Callandor's Avatar
Callandor Callandor is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wisconsin (yeah, that's Hick Country, too)
Posts: 85
Callandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond reputeCallandor has a reputation beyond repute
Thumbs up I like old interviews

Cause they get so fun.

Quote:
November 2nd, 2009, Wired Magazine.

GD: Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand alíThor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head-sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordanís notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because Iíd been told that ďRand will go mad, Rand will go mad,Ē but I didnít accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Randís head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that heíd promised: ďNo, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, heís seeing part of his past life, but heís going insane. Itís the immense pressure thatís doing this.Ē In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, itís hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

Robert Jordan once said in an interview, when someone tried to get him to boil down the series to its core-he first said, you canít boil down this series. I wrote it as long as I did because thatís how long I needed to tell the story, and so boiling it down doesnít work. But he finally did say this: At itís essence, this series is about what itís like to be told that you need to save the world, and that itís probably going to cost your life. Even all of the other characters, you could say that that is a theme for them, too. Egwene has had to give up the life that sheíd assumed that she was going to live, and to adopt this other life in the name of the greater good. And thatís happening to everybody. Kings and queens are being cast down, and people who thought that their lives were just going to be normal and stable, and thatís all they really wanted, are being forced to take upon themselves these mantles of responsibility. And Rand is at the very heart of that. Rand is the center, the example for all of them of what theyíre having to go through, and itís the worst for him.
Anyway, I'll just be wandering on along.

__________________
"You guys just do what you do best. Find something simple and complicate it!"
-Theoryland Motto

"I was cured, all right."
-A Clockwork Orange

"I'll see you on the dark side of the Moon."
-Pink Floyd

The Stone of Tear
  #2  
Old 08-10-2011, 11:17 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Thanks to Marie for digging this one up. I bet Brandon has been scared all this time we'd find it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Isa saw it before and didn't tell anyone. I tweeted about it, and Brandon hasn't commented beyond saying this. At which point Luckers assured him that he hadn't actually confirmed anything. Ha! So we argued back and forth a bit including Brandon in our tweets. But I imagine that the pool of diehard real'ers has to get much smaller at this point. Even Luckers is not really a real'er; he's just a semantic champion. But Brandon says clearly that RJ's notes indicated that the voice was a delusion caused by madness.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #3  
Old 08-11-2011, 12:45 AM
Isabel Isabel is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Isabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via MSN to Isabel
Default

Quote:
BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.
Let's dissect this quote:Brandon is refering to a quote by Semirhage:

Quote:
He’s insane. Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin could know. Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice.
It makes no difference that this voice is real, however.Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt.
(KoD, a plain wooden box, Semirhage, p 592)
Semirhage said that Rand is insane, but still hearing a real voice. So no that doens't mean that Brandon confirmed the construct theory here.
__________________
'Rand al'Thor, Nynaeve shrieked, that is the most outrageous thing I ever heard out of your mouth. The very idea of telling three women you love them! You are worse than a lecher. You apologize right now!'

Isabel sedai of the Green Ajah, Amyrlin of the Official Nynaeve Fanclub, first sister to Gennie Sedai of the Green Ajah, bonded to Camel, Wolf Gaidin, Jachthond and ghostrider.
  #4  
Old 08-11-2011, 12:55 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Yes, actually, it does. One thing I've tried to stress to you real'ers before is that the word 'real' does not mean what you think it does in that context. Brandon is the proof of that - he didn't have the history with the fandom and the debate and all the connotations that were ascribed to the word 'real', and as a fan, he read the Semirhage passage in a completely different way than you did. He realized that Semirhage was saying that Rand heard the voice because he was insane. Specifically, he realized that the voice was a delusion. And this was in the notes. So you can't try to reconstruct what Brandon said based on your faulty assumptions. His meaning is clear. If he meant what you thought, then the passage would make no sense at all, because Semirhage would have been confirming his previous assumptions.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #5  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:39 AM
Isabel Isabel is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,088
Isabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to beholdIsabel is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via MSN to Isabel
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, actually, it does. One thing I've tried to stress to you real'ers before is that the word 'real' does not mean what you think it does in that context. Brandon is the proof of that - he didn't have the history with the fandom and the debate and all the connotations that were ascribed to the word 'real', and as a fan, he read the Semirhage passage in a completely different way than you did. He realized that Semirhage was saying that Rand heard the voice because he was insane. Specifically, he realized that the voice was a delusion. And this was in the notes. So you can't try to reconstruct what Brandon said based on your faulty assumptions. His meaning is clear. If he meant what you thought, then the passage would make no sense at all, because Semirhage would have been confirming his previous assumptions.
Nope, the voice can be real and it can still mean Rand is insane.

Brandon hasn't confirmed any of the theories, so you can't claim victory, however you want it.
__________________
'Rand al'Thor, Nynaeve shrieked, that is the most outrageous thing I ever heard out of your mouth. The very idea of telling three women you love them! You are worse than a lecher. You apologize right now!'

Isabel sedai of the Green Ajah, Amyrlin of the Official Nynaeve Fanclub, first sister to Gennie Sedai of the Green Ajah, bonded to Camel, Wolf Gaidin, Jachthond and ghostrider.
  #6  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:39 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Ah, but I can, and I do. The delusional few (or two) don't change the facts and the logic.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #7  
Old 08-11-2011, 12:57 AM
AbbeyRoad's Avatar
AbbeyRoad AbbeyRoad is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Charlottesville, Virginia
Posts: 625
AbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant futureAbbeyRoad has a brilliant future
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
So no that doens't mean that Brandon confirmed the construct theory here
Confirmed? Perhaps not.

Strongly, strongly implied? I'll let you answer that one with your own rational judgement...
__________________
ďI would not mind you in my head if you were not so clearly insane.Ē
ó Lews Therin Telamon to Rand al'Thor

"He can compress the most words into the smallest idea of any man I ever met."
ó Abraham Lincoln

Draw a crazy picture, write a nutty poem. Sing a mumble-gumble song, whistle through your comb. Do a loony-goony dance 'cross the kitchen floor. Put something silly in the world that ain't been there before.
  #8  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:32 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Brandon sent a response to Luckers, not sure through which medium (I was expecting a hedge post, so this comes as no surprise):

Quote:
I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet.
And this is my response to Luckers on Dragonmount:

Quote:
It was expected, actually. His wording is even further confirmation, and follows on a point I just made to Isa at Theoryland. (He won't lie, so things like 'Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes' are huge red flashing arrows.) Clearly, his views shifted when reading the Semirhage passage, which confirms that he didn't read into the word 'real' in the same way that the real'ers did at all...and he wouldn't have spoken about it in that way if the notes had contradicted his feelings.
Brandon can't dance around this one, no matter how hard he tries.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #9  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:45 AM
Luckers Luckers is offline
Dragonmount Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 143
Luckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really nice
Default

I asked Brandon about this, and here was his reply.

Quote:
James,

Feel free to post this response from me.

"I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet."

Best,

Brandon
I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate, since nor do I.

Nor do I reguard it to have particularily shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory (the Real Madness Theory), actually requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.

You Constructionists don't own madness or delusion, you know. It's presence doesn't lend weight to your argument--Semirhage was quite clear. That the manifestationd of a past life voice is real means nothing. The descent to terminal insanity occurs just the same.



Oh, and Terez, it was via email.

Last edited by Luckers; 08-11-2011 at 01:52 AM.
  #10  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:48 AM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers View Post
I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate, since nor do I.
LOL. What did you expect him to say? "Oh, my bad...yeah, I accidentally confirmed construct theory."

Quote:
Nor do I reguard it to have particularily shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory (the Real Madness Theory), actually requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.
Again, he also changed his opinion on whether or not the voice was a delusion. Obviously, Semirhage convinced him that it was...and obviously, the notes confirmed that impression or he wouldn't have spoken about it in the interview in the way that he did.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
  #11  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:56 AM
Luckers Luckers is offline
Dragonmount Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 143
Luckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really niceLuckers is just really nice
Default

Yes... obviously...

*rolls eyes*
  #12  
Old 08-11-2011, 03:04 AM
Southpaw2012 Southpaw2012 is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 689
Southpaw2012 is a jewel in the roughSouthpaw2012 is a jewel in the roughSouthpaw2012 is a jewel in the rough
Default

I don't care what Brandon or anyone ever says, I'm still sticking by my opinion I had when first reading through the books. Rand, knowing he was the Dragon Reborn, began going mad and heard voices based on the madness. At the same time though, he was remembering memories of Lews Therin. So that combined with his madness created the imaginary voice and which is then further confirmed at the ending of TGS saying that they had never been two people because they weren't... Just Rand the whole time.
  #13  
Old 08-11-2011, 04:26 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Southpaw, that is exactly my reading of it. You can even, on a re-read, determine the point at which he started repressing the memories and subconsciously creating the LTT personality (it was during TSR and TFOH). Rand starts having AOL memories, he doesn't like them, he represses them, and then LTT appears; later, he experiences an epiphany at Dragonmount and accepts the memories and personality, becoming one. That's all there is to it.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
  #14  
Old 08-11-2011, 08:57 AM
Daekyras's Avatar
Daekyras Daekyras is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,772
Daekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond reputeDaekyras has a reputation beyond repute
Default

it kinda does seem to confirm the construct theory.

In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!

One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...
__________________
You know what is comparable to LotR? Dragonlance. -Toss the Dice

He just got carried away a bit this time, probably as a result of his marriage-gonzothegreat

Son of Nazbaque, Lord of Fire
  #15  
Old 08-11-2011, 09:04 AM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
it kinda does seem to confirm the construct theory.

In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!

One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...
Probably because it's rather clearly and explicitly stated in the books. He's RAFO'd questions the answers to which can be found on a careful reading before.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
  #16  
Old 08-11-2011, 09:11 AM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

I never knew that this was even a real issue. I mean, I knew RJ would RAFO it, and I've heard it is not something to expect an answer on, but I never really thought anyone doubted that Rand was nuts.
(Hey Terez, something we agree on!)

Actually, some of Rand's odder moments remind me of what it's like right before a seizure.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
  #17  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:29 PM
Crispin's Crispian's Avatar
Crispin's Crispian Crispin's Crispian is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Oregon, USA
Posts: 4,069
Crispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond reputeCrispin's Crispian has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
I never knew that this was even a real issue. I mean, I knew RJ would RAFO it, and I've heard it is not something to expect an answer on, but I never really thought anyone doubted that Rand was nuts.
I don't know a single "Real'er" that thought Rand wasn't crazy, or at least well on his way. I'm surprised that Brandon did. There are so many other clues about Rand's madness...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers
Nor do I reguad it to have particularly shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how
It definitely seems like he's saying that the Semirhage quote opened up the possibility that the Voice was actually a symptom of Rand's madness. I'm not sure how you can argue that. So that was the first shift: "Oh crap, he might not be hearing the real Lews Therin after all!"

I don't see it as a confirmation of Construct Theory at all, just that it opened his eyes to that as a possibility whereas he previously thought only that Lews Therin was the real guy.

Then he says something "may have" shifted again with his reading of the notes. Terez of course thinks this OBVIOUSLY means he completely converted to Construct Theory. ~shrug~


Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Again, he also changed his opinion on whether or not the voice was a delusion.
That's a bit stronger than what he actually said, but of course you'd assume that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez
Obviously, Semirhage convinced him that it was...and obviously, the notes confirmed that impression or he wouldn't have spoken about it in the interview in the way that he did.
hahaha...
__________________
"Pizza topped with justice." -Liz
  #18  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:57 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
I don't know a single "Real'er" that thought Rand wasn't crazy, or at least well on his way.
That's because you didn't pay attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
I'm surprised that Brandon did. There are so many other clues about Rand's madness...
I'm not surprised because RJ wrote it really well. He wrote it so that we would see it through Rand's perspective almost entirely. We want what Rand wants, and Rand wants to stay sane long enough to make it to the Last Battle, and he constantly tries to convince himself that he's still sane. RJ draws a contrast between Rand and Lews Therin - the latter is the gibbering madman in Rand's head, and Rand is still functional, so obviously he's the sane one. It's not his fault he has a crazy guy inside his head, and obviously that's going to make Rand act a little strange from time to time. And by the time Lews Therin starts to seem sane in contrast to Rand, you're already on Rand's team. You want to believe what he believes, and you've already got your reasons for believing it well-established. (Obviously, I'm not talking about you, but about the average reader. Many recognize he's starting to lose it a little bit, but most don't know how badly, because of the 'Lews Therin is real' explanation.) When you see Rand talking to himself in Egwene's POV, you think Egwene just doesn't understand. Rand has a crazy guy in his head talking to him. It's real - it's Lews Therin! He's not going insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
It definitely seems like he's saying that the Semirhage quote opened up the possibility that the Voice was actually a symptom of Rand's madness. I'm not sure how you can argue that. So that was the first shift: "Oh crap, he might not be hearing the real Lews Therin after all!"

I don't see it as a confirmation of Construct Theory at all, just that it opened his eyes to that as a possibility whereas he previously thought only that Lews Therin was the real guy.
I see it as confirmation because he's telling us he realized that this was the madness, and the pressure that was doing this to him. He was so excited that he went on about Rand and Lews Therin when that's not what the question was really asking about at all. (I sympathize with him - I was like that as a new convert to construct theory.) Further confirmation is in Brandon's response to Luckers:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books....Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text.
And we all know what was in the text, which is why everyone hopped over to construct theory when they read TGS - they were not two men, and never had been. And therefore, Rand will never hear the voice again. Along with 'may have', I don't see how you can read it any other way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CC
hahaha...
Is that an argument? Have you been taking lessons from Mr. Unreasoner?
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27

Last edited by Terez; 08-11-2011 at 02:01 PM.
  #19  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:03 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

I would also like to add that, personally, I never liked the Lews Therin in Rand's head because he seemed very different from the Lews Therin who appeared in the "Dragonmount" prologue. Even when insane, that Lews Therin seemed to be written very differently. The Lews Therin in Rand's head always seemed to conveniently be thinking about things Rand could understand and process, and even insane-prologue-LTT seemed more together than it.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
  #20  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:27 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,127
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
I would also like to add that, personally, I never liked the Lews Therin in Rand's head because he seemed very different from the Lews Therin who appeared in the "Dragonmount" prologue. Even when insane, that Lews Therin seemed to be written very differently. The Lews Therin in Rand's head always seemed to conveniently be thinking about things Rand could understand and process, and even insane-prologue-LTT seemed more together than it.
That's because the Lews Therin that Rand constructed was based on his perception of the man before the memories. It wasn't the real Lews Therin at all - it was a vague impression of the Kinslayer, a face and a name to give to Rand's inconvenient thoughts and emotions. In a way, it helped to keep him sane. For a little while.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.