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Old 05-16-2012, 11:36 AM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default TGH: Ch. 16 - Lanfear's Compulsion Potion/Ter'angreal

I'd like to continue the discussion Crispy started last year about this.

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=5962

And I'm definitely supporting the idea that Lanfear is carrying a Ter'angreal, and I'd like to push out the idea that it is something to do with her scent, almost as though it enters into the body and remains there after she has gone, like an air-borne compulsion that requires some proximity, but retains some lasting effects.

I'm less inclined to go the route of the Finns for this, although I'm happy to accept it as an option. We now know the Finns have tons of objects of Power and it wouldn't be surprising for them to give Lanfear something like this in response to a request to be the most beautiful/desired woman in the world. However, I'd also suggest that such Ter'angreal, or a Ter'angreal perfume, a sprayable Ter'angreal would have been more "common" in the Age of Legends. I can imagine a black market for such a thing, if it was illegal to manipulate people in such ways during the AoL. But the idea that at an atomic level the people of the Age of Legends would have figured out a manipulation of pheromones and the one power is a reasonable one to me.

Consider some reactions and the focus on the interpretation of whatever they are sensing to be explained as beautiful and a desire to look at that beauty, a need to see it, and Rand connects it to her scent in this initial passage.

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 16 - In the Mirror of Darkness
Rand was relieved, but he missed her presence, too. She was only two spans away-he twisted in his saddle to stare at her, riding by Loial's side; the Ogier was bent half double in his saddle so he could talk with her but that was not the same as being right there beside him, close enough for him to smell her heady scent, close enough to touch. He settled back angrily. It was not that he wanted to touch her, exactly - he reminded himself that he loved Egwene; he felt guilty at the need for reminding but she was beautiful, and she thought he was a lord, and she said he could be a great man.
Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 16 - In the Mirror of Darkness
Rand stared at her as if she had been gone months; that was how he felt. "I wish Selene would come ride with me some more," he said. Loial chuckled, and Rand felt his face burn.
Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 16 - In the Mirror of Darkness
She was surely the most beautiful woman he had ever seen, intelligent and learned, and she thought he was brave; what more could a man ask from a wife? That's crazy, too. I'd marry Egwene if I could marry anyone, but I can't ask a woman to marry a man who's going to go mad, maybe hurt her. But Selene was so beautiful.
Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 19 - Beneath the Dagger
"That is madness," Selene said. Rand flinched at the word. "Mad or not, it is what I'm doing. I told you, Selene, I want no part of greatness. Back there, I thought I did. For a while, I thought I wanted things . . . ." Light, she's so beautiful. Egwene. Selene. I'm not worthy of either of them. "Something seemed to take hold of me." Saidin came for me, but I fought it off with a sword. Or is that mad, too? He breathed deeply. "Shienar is where the Horn of Valere belongs. Or if not there, Lord Agelmar will know what to do with it."
Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 20 - Saidin
Aes Sedai trying to make me do what they want. Selene was still gazing intently into his eyes, her face so young and beautiful that he wanted to kiss her despite what he was thinking. He had never seen an Aes Sedai act the way she did, and she looked young, not ageless. A girl my age couldn't be Aes Sedai. But...
Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 31 - On the Scent
Transferring things from his old coat to his new, he found the parchments. Absently, he stuffed the invitations in his pocket as he studied Selene's two letters. He wondered how he could have been such a fool. She was the beautiful young daughter of a noble House. He was a shepherd whom Aes Sedai were trying to use, a man doomed to go mad if he did not die first. Yet he could still feel the pull of her just looking at her writing, could almost smell the perfume of her.
I love how often it is out of sequence in his thoughts. And he makes mention of her perfume, which leads to my theory that it is an air-borne compulsion/toxin Ter'angreal spray. Heh. Maybe she keeps it in her belt. Heh, although I'm ok with it being a standard ring, hair piece, belt, or whatever, but the idea of something more standard fare, like perfume, something that would lead to legends about love potions, appeals to me.

I haven't had a chance to compare this against Cyndane, and future Lanfear meetings, but I would guess that the Forsaken know about this and have some way to protect themselves from its effects.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:01 PM
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Incidentally I found another Lanfear the other day that Linda hadn't found. (A rare occurrence.) Lasair, an obscure Irish goddess. She has a magic girdle, something that seems to be a common theme for Lanfear parallels.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Incidentally I found another Lanfear the other day that Linda hadn't found. (A rare occurrence.) Lasair, an obscure Irish goddess. She has a magic girdle, something that seems to be a common theme for Lanfear parallels.
I thought of the girdle and then a plug-in air freshener and couldn't help but laugh at the thought of a Ter'angreal girdle that releases air freshener laced Ter'angreal love potion.

I'll have to go read up on Lasair.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:18 PM
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There's not much to read, unfortunately. As I said, she's very obscure. I tweeted a few links the other day, but I was not able to find much on her at all. Better off reading Linda's article I linked. She thinks that RJ changed the ever-present girdle to a ter'angreal belt.
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Old 05-16-2012, 05:41 PM
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Why not look at this from the other side? (while I don't like the idea of some lust-ter'angreal, I can't imagine it would be stronger than Compulsion, which is known to be less effective against a person holding the Source)

Why not some sort of desire enhancing ter'angreal? maybe dopamine is released in those in close proximity. (I also think it's worth noting that three threads you have recently started all deal with desire, and frequently concern Lanfear at least indirectly.

Which brings me to my last point: if she has a ter'angreal that increases desire for her in others, she doesn't anymore, and still managed to elicit desire in Rand as Cyndane. I almost think it's some sort of soul/thread affinity, rather than a specific scent.
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Old 05-16-2012, 05:52 PM
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She has the same effect on Mat, Perrin, and even Loial. Or similar, anyway. She seems to be able to adjust it.
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:29 PM
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Default Reference please

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Why not look at this from the other side? (while I don't like the idea of some lust-ter'angreal, I can't imagine it would be stronger than Compulsion, which is known to be less effective against a person holding the Source)

Why not some sort of desire enhancing ter'angreal? maybe dopamine is released in those in close proximity.
Though, It is directed at Lanfear. Simply enhancing dopamine doesn't seem to me enough to create the type of effects we witness in those that are in close proximity to Lanfear. Are you suggesting the Ter'angreal would somehow focus the dopamine increase towards the person wearing it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
(I also think it's worth noting that three threads you have recently started all deal with desire, and frequently concern Lanfear at least indirectly.
Maybe her ter'angreal works on readers too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Which brings me to my last point: if she has a ter'angreal that increases desire for her in others, she doesn't anymore, and still managed to elicit desire in Rand as Cyndane. I almost think it's some sort of soul/thread affinity, rather than a specific scent.
Can you cite the reference you are using to make a direct comparison between what Rand and others sense in TGH?
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:55 PM
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That wasn't really my point. I'm saying (assuming she really has some kind of ter'angreal) that Lanfear is desirable in and of herself. As is saidin, and the Horn. More free dopamine might just make people more likely to give in to temptation. So, Lanfear couldn't make a rock or a cow desirable, but she could make that which is desirable more so.

My comments on the Cyndane in the ToM epilogue are more deduction than direct citation. I don't think she has been seen in her silver belt since she donned the red/black livery, and even if she her ter'angreal was something else, I doubt the 'finn would let her keep it (and even if they did, or she asked for it, would Moridin let her keep it? somehow I doubt it). I simply thought it was odd that Cyndane elicited desire. She's not as pretty as Lanfear, and in all likelihood does not still possess the hypothetical ter'angreal. Rand is surrounded by pretty women. Now maybe Cyndane just elicited a peripheral desire, some sort of idle lust, but if it was more than that, where does it come from? Her personality is repulsive, but Rand felt desire as he recognized her. So I hypothesized that her alleged ter'angreal creates a lasting affinity between souls/threads, and not simply some temporary desire while it's active. I realize that doesn't quite jive with my dopamine theory, but I'm not 100% on either. And the ter'angreal may have multiple uses in the hands of an adept channeler. If there is a ter'angreal. Right now, I'm just spitballing, seeing what sticks.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:53 AM
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Pheromones.

She is supposed to be the most desireable woman of at least one, and possibly two, Ages, after all.

And, while Third Age yokels might be taken in with a ter'angreal trick, I seriously doubt that would have worked with Second Age channelers who knew her before she acquired such a thing. At the very least LTT qualifies as such, and possibly (probably) some of the Forsaken too.
Thus, I would say that the answer I gave in the first word of this post is the more likely explanation.
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:13 AM
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So she can produce Ogier pheromones too? Seems she would have just left Loial out of it rather than go to the extra trouble...
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Old 05-17-2012, 03:15 AM
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Some pheromones aren't all that species specific. Others are, of course. I would bet that Lanfear (and other humans) produce both types.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:58 AM
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I suppose its possible that she has some sort of ter'angreal, it could have made sense given what we know of paris nets and the like but surely at least one of the other forsaken would have commented on it at any of their meetings.

My personal take on why the forsaken don't seem to be armed to the teeth with sa'angreal and the like was as follows. The 13 we are familiar with were called to SG for a conference. Given the nature of the forsaken and the fact that the Do is an uper control freak (RJ's words I believe) I could see the forsaken having to surrender their toys at the door before going down to the Pit. Think of it as checking your guns at the saloon.

LTT and co show up and they have to fight with what they have are driven back and caught in the sealing. When they wake up a lot of time has passed and unfortunatly the box where they all placed their toys is gone either destroyed or stolen over the years.

Again I could be wrong but it seems to me that the simplest answeer is the best. Lanfear was by all accounts one of the hottest women in the world. At that point in the story Rand is more that a little green. His experience has been with Egwene, the village girl and he is still new to the world. Yes he has seen some pretty women since leaving the Two Rivers but he is still very immature when it comes to thinks like sex. Suddenly this highly educated, beautiful noble woman who appears to be around his own age shows up and all but throws herself at him, even making the excuse to get undressed to clean out her dress and coming on to him wearing just one of his shirts. Barring Rand being gay I Would have been shocked that he did not feel stirrings as Jack Sparrow might say.

Yes she had an effect on the oigier as well, but he is also quite young as judged by his people and this was his first time away from the stedding on his own. He thinks a lot of things are beautiful and intersting.

As for Hurrin he might be a lot more experienced but he was still a commoner and seeing a hot noble woman paying so much attention to him, well no wonder he was hooked as well.
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Old 05-17-2012, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Some pheromones aren't all that species specific. Others are, of course. I would bet that Lanfear (and other humans) produce both types.
So you're saying, Gonzo, that in Eel'finnland she artificially enhanced her pheromones?

Sorry, but that theory stinks.
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Old 05-17-2012, 09:04 PM
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I was fairly dismissive of all the theroies about Lanfear's enhanced beauty, but I realize that in a place like Shayol Ghul, where the Dark One can manipulate reality, there is no reason why Lanfear couldn't be made super hot. That's if she didn't do it herself while standing in a gateway between Tel'aran'rhiod and the waking world, where changes can be made to the waking world using the properties of Tel'aran'rhiod.

For story purposes, Lanfear represents temptation, so even if she was not enhanced, it's the effect she has on Rand that is important. The horn itself plays a similar role.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:16 PM
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Default The parts I've enjoyed this time through

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Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
I was fairly dismissive of all the theroies about Lanfear's enhanced beauty, but I realize that in a place like Shayol Ghul, where the Dark One can manipulate reality, there is no reason why Lanfear couldn't be made super hot. That's if she didn't do it herself while standing in a gateway between Tel'aran'rhiod and the waking world, where changes can be made to the waking world using the properties of Tel'aran'rhiod.

For story purposes, Lanfear represents temptation, so even if she was not enhanced, it's the effect she has on Rand that is important. The horn itself plays a similar role.
...have to do with it's lasting effects and the connection Rand makes to a scent. It speaks to what is happening him and others, regardless of the means, although the means are fun to discuss too.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:42 AM
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It would be interesting to know if this ter'angreal created a different set of emotions in each gender. It appears to create feelings of longing and lust in males, but would it do the same for females. From Crispin's quote in the original thread, Min felt envy when in Lanfear's presence:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Great Hunt:48 - "First Claiming"
The woman came to stand over the bed her movements were so graceful, Min felt a stab of envy, though she had never before envied any woman anything and smoothed Rand's hair as if Min were not there.
"He doesn't believe yet, I think. He knows, but he does not believe. I have guided his steps, pushed him, pulled him, enticed him. He was always stubborn, but this time I will shape him. Isha'mael thinks he controls events, but I do."
If I remember correctly, Egwene felt something much the same in TDR when she ran into Lanfear while chasing after what she thought was Else Grinwell. Unfortunately my copy of TDR is on loan, perhaps someone more knowledgeable knows the quote I am referring too, Egwene mentioned something along the lines of feeling like a child in dirty clothes with a runny nose while looking at Lanfear.

Would this ter'angreal then amplify lust in men and jealousy in women? Just a thought.
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:52 AM
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Bonus question: how did Lanfear switch off this supposed ter'angreal when she was posing as Else?
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:07 PM
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Bonus answer: she wasn't posing as Else. Mesaana was posing as Else, and Lanfear was spying on her.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Mesaana was posing as Else, and Lanfear was spying on her.
Are you sure about this? I have a hazy memory of Egwene chasing after Else who had just dropped in some papers about the 13 BA that had fled and the papers were clear that they were going to Tear and the girls spotted a trap. They went after Elza and she vanished around a corner and when Egwene rounded the corner there was Lanfear in her normal form.

I think Mat may have bumped into her as well and recognised that she was not as he rememberd her.

I don't remember Mesaana being mentioned and from what I remember neither Demandred Mesaana or Semirhage were invovled in the plan to lure Rand to Tear. That was Be'lal's idea and he was not in with Mesaana.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 27 - The Shadow in the Night
"What trouble have you gotten yourself into now?" said a familiar woman's voice. There was suddenly a spicy perfume in the air.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 27 - The Shadow in the Night
"Danger adds a certain something," she said softly. "And so far, you handle it well. Shall we see what we find?" She brushed past him up the alleyway. Rand followed, the spicy smell of her filling his nostrils.

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 27 - The Shadow in the Night
"Will you stop that," he told her wearily. He wished the smell of her did not fill his head so; it made it hard to think clearly. He could remember the feel of her body when he pushed her down - softness and firmness in a disturbing blend - and that did not help either.
He follows her noting her smell filling his nostrils. Her smell filled his head and make it hard to think clearly.
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