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Old 04-21-2015, 02:28 AM
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Default ASOIAF reread (spoilers)

So with the new GOT season, and the fact that Winds of Winter might (maybe, sorta, hopefully) come out in less than a year from now, I felt like rereading asoiaf. I'm just going to use this thread to make some comments and stuff.

First, the pace of aGoT is almost ridiculously fast-passed compared to Feast and Dance. There's a lot packed into each chapter. In one of them, Catelyn and Ser Rodrik ride from Winterfell, get a ship at White Harbor, sail through storms to King's Landing, pay the ship's captain, find and inn, have Ser Rodrik go off to speak with the Red Keep's master at arms, have Littlefinger's men find Catelyn, bring her to the Red Keep, where she has a conversation with Littlefinger before Varys arrives to join in, and she finally discovers the dagger used in the assassination attempt on Bran was (supposedly) Tyrion's. This whole scenario would have taken GRRM at least 3 or 4 lenghty chapters had it been in Feast or Dance, instead of 10 pages here.



A few things jumped out to me about Sansa:

1) It seems pretty obvious that GRRM wants us to dislike her as a character. And it's not even the fact that she's a complete moron, but (slightly) more subtle things, like her fighting with Arya and her refusal to acknowledge Jon as her brother. My point is that GRRM is really trying to downplay her in the early stages of the series, so it will be more awesome when she finally starts to act on her own and do something cool. We know from the Ghost of High Heart's dream that Sansa will kill Littlefinger at some point, which should be cool, but it will interesting to see what else happens with her.

2) This quote struck me more than I remember from other reads (from Ned's PoV, after hearing Catelyn recount the attempt on Bran's life):
Quote:
What was it that Jon has said when they found the pups in the snow? Your children were meant to have these pups, my lord. And he had killed Sansa's, and for what? Was it guilt he was feeling? Or fear? If the gods had sent these wolves, what folly had he done?
Not that Sansa wasn't a naive ditz before Lady was killed, but executing her wolf may have actually had some effect on her rather unfortunate/tragic plot line so far.




A few things struck me from Bran's dream too, from right before he wakes up. First, when he's looking down and can see the entire world, he sees this:
Quote:
He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the Free Cities and the green Dothraki Sea beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the Jade Sea, to Asshai by the Shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise.
I know dragons are supposedly from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, and that a lot of characters say they used to live there. But in this vision, Bran seems to imply there are dragons living there now. Though admittedly I'm not entirely sure what "beneath the sunrise" means. All indications are that Dany will travel through Asshai and sail "backwards" around the world to return to Westeros, so it will be interesting to see what happens there.

I also noticed this from the Bran chapter. I've noticed it before, but it still confuses me:
Quote:
He looked south, and saw the great blue-green rush of the Trident. He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood.
The first two men are almost certainly Sandor Clegane and Jaime Lannister, which makes sense as they're both in the party heading south with Ned. The giant seems out of place here, though. I'm assuming it's Gregor once he's become Ser Robert Strong, but then why would he be connected with Ned's party? Gregor "looming over" Sandor makes perfet sense, but no so much for Jaime...unless, of course, he ends up fighting Ser Robert Strong at some point. I guess the man who's "armored like the sun" could refer to Oberyn Martell. It doesn't make much sense in the context of Bran's vision, but he's certainly connected to Gregor. Bran would have also presumably recognized Jaime's face at this point as well...
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Old 04-21-2015, 02:46 AM
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Armored like the sun...Oberyn.
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Old 04-24-2015, 11:39 PM
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I just read the chapter where Dany eats the horse heart and it struck me that, while an interesting idea, eating an entire horse heart is probably close to impossible for anyone who isn't a Dothraki food eating champion. I did some quick research, and an average horse's heart would weigh 8-9 pounds. Some racing horses have apparently had hearts the size of basketballs that weighed 22 pounds. Even if you figure Dany's wild stallion was toward the lower end of that range (10 to 12 lbs, maybe), there's no way a 13 year old girl would be able to eat all that, even if it did taste good. Though admittedly this could be based on real-world customs and I'm just plain wrong, but it seems a bit of a stretch.

I was also wondering about the prophecy the Dothraki crones make about Dany and Drogo's son (the so-called "stallion that mounts the world"). Namely, was this prophecy really about their son, and it just died with him later in aGoT? Or did the crones see Dany herself uniting all the khalasars, and just interpreted it as being her son? It seems doubtful that Dany will be able to gather all the Dothraki to her in Winds of Winter, but I suppose it's possible.
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Old 04-25-2015, 02:50 AM
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Perhaps they saw some vision of her replacement children and misinterpreted it.

I am personally more interested in Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy.
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Old 04-28-2015, 12:12 AM
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I am personally more interested in Mirri Maz Duur's prophecy.
Yep, I'll get to that soon I hope. IMO, that's one of the best prophecies in any fantasy book, just because of how subtle it is. I didn't notice it was an actual prophecy at all until a little while ago.
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Old 06-09-2015, 03:27 AM
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I kind of got sidetracked with the reread and started reading other things. I got about halfway through aCoK. I plan on restarting the reread soon. Anyway, I still had some thoughts from the end of aGoT and beginning of aCoK.




I've always been kind of confused as to what exactly Mirri Maz Duur does in the book. When she heals Drogo initially, does she intentionally do it wrong, or poison him? Or did she actually try to heal him, knowing that he wouldn't follow her directions and end up killing himself?

And what about Dany's son? It's heavily implied that Mirri Maz Duur killed him to "save" Drogo, yet Dany also says that Jorah killed her son by carrying her into Drogo's tent while MMD was performing the blood magic, suggesting the baby would have been fine if Jorah hadn't done that.

Did Jorah suffer any kind of effects from seeing the shadows dancing in the tent with Mirri Maz Duur? Dany says he's grey-faced and hollowed-eyed from doing so, but is that really the extent of it?

Also regarding Rhaego...why does he look like a dragon ("monstrous," as MMD says)? Is it because of the interacting with MMD's blood magic, or did it always look like that? Is it possible that the baby wasn't Drogo's at all, but somehow a product of the dream Dany had just before she found out she was pregnant?




Then there's MMD's prophecy:
Quote:
"When will he be as he was?" Dany demanded.
"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."
-Sun rising in the west and setting in the east = Quentyn (the "sun's son") sailing from Dorne and dying in Meereen.
-Seas going dry = the drought in the Dothraki sea.
-Mountains blowing = probably the pyramids of Meereen crumbling during the upcoming battle
-Womb quickening/bearing a living child = Dany seems to miscarry at the end of aDwD, so she'll likely get pregnant again at some point.

It's pretty cool that this prophecy is very subtlety fulfilled at the end of aDwD. I'm wondering if it implies that Drogo will return once Dany has another baby, or that he would have returned to normal if she'd just carried him around with her as a vegetable the entire time.



One last thing about Dany. Why isn't she killed in Drogo's funeral pyre? GRRM has said that this was just a magical, one-time occurrence, and that Dany (contrary to popular belief) is not immune to fire. She gets burned by Drogon in aDwD, iirc. So what happened in the funeral scene that allowed Dany to survive the fire? It seems as if she's drawn in almost in a trance, so maybe the dragons have something to do with it?



There seems to be some foreshadowing that Sansa will kill Petyr by pushing him off something. At the end of aGoT, she briefly contemplates jumping out her window to kill herself after Eddard's death. Shortly after, she almost pushes Joffrey off the wall walk before Sandor stops her. And then of course there's the incident with Lysa and the Moon Door. There seems to be a running bit of Sansa and falling to death. I think the Ghost of High Heart's prophecy says Sansa will kill Littlefinger in a castle of snow, which could just mean they go back to the Eyrie and she shoves him out the Moon Door. Or it could be the way castle, Snow. Or Winterfell. Or Castle Black.




I thought this was a cool homage to RJ (from the Arya POV where she sees Ned beheaded). At least, I assume that's basically what it is:
Quote:
She had also heard other things, scary things, things that made no sense to her. Some said her father had murdered King Robert and been slain in turn by Lord Renly. Others insisted that Renly has killed the king in a drunken quarrel between brothers. Why else should he have fled in the night like a common thief? One story said the king had been killed by a boar while hunting, another that he'd died eating a boar, stuffing himself so full that he'd ruptured at the table. No, the king had died at table, others said, but only because Varys the Spider poisoned him. No, it had been the queen who poisoned him. No, he had died of a pox. No, he had choked on a fish bone.

One thing all the stories agreed on: King Robert was dead.
This is almost copy and pasted from the ending of one of the WoT books. I forget which...tGH or tDR, I think.




One thing I never really understood was why Davos saved Stannis from the siege at Storm's End. Certainly it paid off now that he's Hand of the King, but surely he never suspected anything remotely like that would have happened. So why do it? Just to prove he could?



Littlefinger's scheming goes quite a bit deeper than what you get on the surface. Sure, we get the obvious admission that he helped Lysa orchestrate Jon Arryn's death and framed the Lannisters for it, starting the whole feud between the Starks and Lannisters. But in a couple scenes with Tyrion, Varys hints that Littlefinger was the one who told Stannis about Cersei and Jaime's incest. Varys also implies that Littlefinger paid off the Gold Cloaks and/or Ilyn Payne so that they'd obey Joffrey's command to kill Ned and ignore the Queen's protests.

On a side note, why did Varys imply to Ned that Ser Hugh had killed Jon Arryn? We know from her own mouth that it was Lysa herself, so why would Varys try to blame Hugh? Furthermore, why would Gregor have killed Hugh in the tourney? Is it possible Hugh's death was just a coincidence, and Varys was tricked into believing it was him?



Are there any theories as to what Jaqen H'ghar's plans were in the early part of the series? We know he ends up in Oldtown later on, but what about aGoT and aCoK? Presumably he could have avoided being captured in King's Landing if he really wanted to. Same with serving at Harrenhal. Was he looking for something? I can sort of see that for King's Landing, but even the seemingly omnipotent Jaqen H'ghar could hardly have predicted he'd be sent to the Wall, freed during a battle, pressed into Gregor's gang, and ultimately land up in Harrenhal. Maybe he's not quite as badass as he seems, but you'd think he could have searched both King's Landing and Harrenhal in much easier fashion, assuming that was his intentions to begin with.

I know there are all kinds of theories that Jaqen = Syrio, but I think some people have shown that the timeline doesn't work for that (Yoren searched the dungeons before Syrio was killed, or something...not really sure). I don't really believe it, in any case. What is kind of interesting is when Arya seems to hear Syrio's voice as she's sneaking out of the Red Keep. And it's not just a flashback, it's a full-fledged Obi-Wan "use the Force, Luke" moment where she can literally hear him. What's up with that?




Yeah, sorry that was kind of long. I'd been saving some of this stuff for a while and just figured I'd dump it here now. I'm hoping to start up with aCoK again pretty soon.
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:04 AM
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I've always been kind of confused as to what exactly Mirri Maz Duur does in the book. When she heals Drogo initially, does she intentionally do it wrong, or poison him? Or did she actually try to heal him, knowing that he wouldn't follow her directions and end up killing himself?
She'd just been gang raped by his men...so her goal was to kill him all along.

Quote:
And what about Dany's son? It's heavily implied that Mirri Maz Duur killed him to "save" Drogo, yet Dany also says that Jorah killed her son by carrying her into Drogo's tent while MMD was performing the blood magic, suggesting the baby would have been fine if Jorah hadn't done that.
Lets just say that Mirri kinda knew what would happen in that situation...if Dany doesnt go into that tent, Drogo likely dies instead of "surviving" like he did.

Quote:
-Sun rising in the west and setting in the east = Quentyn (the "sun's son") sailing from Dorne and dying in Meereen.
-Seas going dry = the drought in the Dothraki sea.
-Mountains blowing = probably the pyramids of Meereen crumbling during the upcoming battle
-Womb quickening/bearing a living child = Dany seems to miscarry at the end of aDwD, so she'll likely get pregnant again at some point
Just a fancy way of telling her she's barren and won't ever have anymore human kids.

Quote:
One last thing about Dany. Why isn't she killed in Drogo's funeral pyre? GRRM has said that this was just a magical, one-time occurrence, and that Dany (contrary to popular belief) is not immune to fire. She gets burned by Drogon in aDwD, iirc. So what happened in the funeral scene that allowed Dany to survive the fire? It seems as if she's drawn in almost in a trance, so maybe the dragons have something to do with it?
Shot in the dark, it has to do with dragons and magic...magic in GRRM's world is derived from the existence of dragons thus the birth of dragons produced the magical effect that saved her. No dragons, no magic.

Quote:
This is almost copy and pasted from the ending of one of the WoT books. I forget which...tGH or tDR, I think.
Distinct possibility. GRRM was always incredibly grateful for a praise comment that RJ put on the back of Game of Thrones. He considered it a big part of why his books took off they way they did. I know it was part of the reason I picked it up at the discount book warehouse on Rt 309 in Montgomeryville, PA back in 1997. So um, thanks RJ I guess.

Quote:
One thing I never really understood was why Davos saved Stannis from the siege at Storm's End. Certainly it paid off now that he's Hand of the King, but surely he never suspected anything remotely like that would have happened. So why do it? Just to prove he could
Davos, regardless of being a smuggler, is an inherently good guy that couldn't watch people starve to death...and he likely saw a big profit in it so personal gain came into it. Davos has always represented inherent good in the story. He's the voice of morality and loyalty in his entire story arc.

Quote:
Littlefinger's scheming goes quite a bit deeper than what you get on the surface. Sure, we get the obvious admission that he helped Lysa orchestrate Jon Arryn's death and framed the Lannisters for it, starting the whole feud between the Starks and Lannisters. But in a couple scenes with Tyrion, Varys hints that Littlefinger was the one who told Stannis about Cersei and Jaime's incest. Varys also implies that Littlefinger paid off the Gold Cloaks and/or Ilyn Payne so that they'd obey Joffrey's command to kill Ned and ignore the Queen's protests
Every move he makes is designed to sow chaos and give him an opportunity to advance in power. Think about it, he's a nobody son of a man who was barely noble. He'd never have any real authority unless there is massive chaos. The British Navy toast of "To Bloody Wars and Sickly Seasons" comes to mind here. Being Master of Coin is nice but its really just a glorified accountant/banker for the real Lords. Thanks to his machinations, he achieves a signficant amount of power as the books go on as he's Lord of Harrenhal and then Lord Protector of the Vale and he controls what he believes is the sole surviving heirs to both the Vale and North along with the Riverlands in his own right. That's 3 of the 7 kingdoms and he's allied with the Reach still. He's in a position to be the "Warwick" of Westeros (Wars of the Roses reference...a fairly obvious one too for anyone who's ever read even a wiki page on English history). He'll never be king in his own right but you better believe he has a plan to sit his pawn on the throne eventually.

Quote:
I know there are all kinds of theories that Jaqen = Syrio, but I think some people have shown that the timeline doesn't work for that (Yoren searched the dungeons before Syrio was killed, or something...not really sure). I don't really believe it, in any case. What is kind of interesting is when Arya seems to hear Syrio's voice as she's sneaking out of the Red Keep. And it's not just a flashback, it's a full-fledged Obi-Wan "use the Force, Luke" moment where she can literally hear him. What's up with that?
Two ridiculous theories I hear all the time are this one and the "Iron Throne is made of Valyrian Swords". Both are ridiculous. I think its important to remember that Arya is like 8 years old and a scared little girl so her POV isn't really reliable.

On that other theory, do we really think that the Targaryens would willingly toss away a bunch of Valyrian swords given that even they couldn't make them anymore and they still had Dragons (a necessary component). As far as we've been told, there's only a couple hundred such blades in the entire Seven Kingdoms...it'd be astronomically stupid to throw them away like that.
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:44 AM
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She'd just been gang raped by his men...so her goal was to kill him all along.
In the book her poultice was some normal herb stuff and Drogo took it off because it itched and put something else on it. It's actually not clear that she was trying to kill him then despite her admitting she had the motive.
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Old 06-09-2015, 08:47 AM
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In the book her poultice was some normal herb stuff and Drogo took it off because it itched and put something else on it. It's actually not clear that she was trying to kill him then despite her admitting she had the motive.
Yeah, I know. But its pretty clear she wasn't exactly going out of her way to save him given her comments to Dany after it all went down. I highly doubt that poultice was anything more than just mud and some nice smelling herbs.
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Old 06-10-2015, 04:05 PM
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Just a fancy way of telling her she's barren and won't ever have anymore human kids.
That's definitely what it seemed liked for four books. But then when all that stuff happens at the end of Dance, it's hard to believe it was just a coincidence and GRRM unknowingly fulfilled his own prophecy from book 1.

Another way to interpret the Drogo returning part is that when Dany has another kid, she'll name it Drogo.

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In the book her poultice was some normal herb stuff and Drogo took it off because it itched and put something else on it. It's actually not clear that she was trying to kill him then despite her admitting she had the motive.
That's what makes all the stuff with MMD confusing at the end of the book. See doesn't appear to actively poison Drogo or anything, yet she later confesses her motives. Similarly, it doesn't seem as though Rhaego would have died if Jorah hadn't carried Dany into the tent. Yet MMD all but confesses to killing Rhaego so the Stallion Who Mounts the World wouldn't survive to pillage everywhere. She basically admits to everything, even though it doesn't seem like she actually did anything directly. Maybe she just got lucky that things worked out like they did and she was just gloating over it when she "admitted" to doing all of it.
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Old 06-09-2015, 01:32 PM
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I thought this was a cool homage to RJ (from the Arya POV where she sees Ned beheaded). At least, I assume that's basically what it is:

This is almost copy and pasted from the ending of one of the WoT books. I forget which...tGH or tDR, I think.
It's the last chapter of tGH - Ch 50. It is quite similar stylistically - similar parallelisms, similar anaphorae. Nice catch.
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:14 PM
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I kind of got massively sidetracked from my asoiaf reread, so I decided to start over again before the new season of GoT starts. As a side note, I'm finding it massively harder to reread through these longer series (asoiaf, WoT, Malazan) now that I'm older/have a job(s), etc. It just takes so long to read them now with everyhting else going on that I inevitably find something new and shorter to read that distracts me. Or I'll start thinking, holy crap, you've already read this four or five times, why waste months trying to do it yet again? Anyone else get this?

Anyway, I'm about halfway through aGoT right now. I've actually answered one of my own questions from my original reread:
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Originally Posted by rand View Post
On a side note, why did Varys imply to Ned that Ser Hugh had killed Jon Arryn? We know from her own mouth that it was Lysa herself, so why would Varys try to blame Hugh? Furthermore, why would Gregor have killed Hugh in the tourney? Is it possible Hugh's death was just a coincidence, and Varys was tricked into believing it was him?
Though he does indeed mention Hugh eventually, Varys starts by telling Ned this:
Quote:
"There was one boy. All he was, he owed Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in the world."
Varys is talking about Littlefinger, not Ser Hugh. Varys has likely (and correctly) guessed that flat-out telling Ned that Littlefinger did it would make Ned do something stupid, a la giving Cersei a night to think about leaving before he arrested her. Furthermore, the Hound suggests Gregor saw that Ser Hugh had improperly fastened his gorget due to not having a personal squire. Gregor saw this and killed him. There was no reason or motive, Gregor just did it because he saw the opportunity and knew he could get away with it. All of this, in my mind at least, explains why Hugh seems to be shown as the killer in book 1, only for it to be revealed later that Lysa did it. (There's also the Tears of Lys - Lysa - Alyssa's Tears connection that kind of suggests Lysa did it).




One think I'm not sure I understand is why Robert makes such a huge deal out of Dany's pregnancy. Aerys already has an heir - Viserys - who is actively (albeit incompetentlly) scheming to retake Westeros. All we really get is a throwaway line saying Jon Arryn had been comvincing Robert not to kill Viserys these past thirteen years, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It seems as though GRRM wrote this knowing he'd kill off Viserys shortly after, but Robert certainly didn't know that. I just don't get how Dany's son would be more of a threat than Viserys already is.
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Old 03-16-2016, 07:29 PM
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Viserys had no army. Dany did, and she also had an heir.
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Old 03-16-2016, 08:27 PM
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Viserys had no army. Dany did, and she also had an heir.
Its also basically lifted right out of Henry VII's obsession with all the remaining Lancaster and York heirs after he took the English throne...and every other York and Lancaster claimant for the 30 years prior being terrified of potential heirs as focuses of rebellions against their "rightful" rule. Henry VII was particularly merciless though and his throne was very unstable during his reign as a result. Hell, even Henry VII had issues with false claims and pretenders to the Plantagenet claim to the English throne. So, pretty common in GRRM's source material is the point I'm making.
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:18 PM
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Viserys had no army. Dany did, and she also had an heir.
Was Robert even aware of this? I mean, does he know enough about Dothraki culture to realize the army would follow Dany and not Viserys? Even then, Dany really has no say on what the army does--it's Drogo's, not hers. Now I guess Jorah could have mentioned all this, but there's no indication he said anything other than that Dany was pregnant. Maybe Robert knew the full extent of Viserys' incompetence, but even so it seems really out of character for him to dismiss Viserys for over a decade when he's sworn to kill all the Targaryens.
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:29 AM
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Was Robert even aware of this? I mean, does he know enough about Dothraki culture to realize the army would follow Dany and not Viserys? Even then, Dany really has no say on what the army does--it's Drogo's, not hers. Now I guess Jorah could have mentioned all this, but there's no indication he said anything other than that Dany was pregnant. Maybe Robert knew the full extent of Viserys' incompetence, but even so it seems really out of character for him to dismiss Viserys for over a decade when he's sworn to kill all the Targaryens.
I don't think Robert cared which Targaryen was in charge. I think he just wanted Targaryens in general dead. He never really struck me as one who really thought his actions through, just went with his first thought. And to Robert, the only good Targaryen, is a dead Targaryen.
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:18 AM
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Was Robert even aware of this? I mean, does he know enough about Dothraki culture to realize the army would follow Dany and not Viserys? Even then, Dany really has no say on what the army does--it's Drogo's, not hers. Now I guess Jorah could have mentioned all this, but there's no indication he said anything other than that Dany was pregnant. Maybe Robert knew the full extent of Viserys' incompetence, but even so it seems really out of character for him to dismiss Viserys for over a decade when he's sworn to kill all the Targaryens.
It's been a while since I did a reread, but I distinctly remember Ned and Robert having the conversation about whether the Dothraki would ever cross the Narrow Sea. And he did not exactly dismiss Viserys; there were several assassination attempts, the ever-present "hired knives". It just got more serious when Dany got married and pregnant and had an army.
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:14 PM
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The hired knives thing is just something Viserys made up out of paranoia. Dany's first PoV shows there were never any assassination attempts against them. And when Ned and Robert talk on the Kingsroad, all Robert says is that he "should" have tried to kill Viserys and Dany earlier, but Jon Arryn always talked him out of it. So Robert more or less ignored the Targaryen heirs until he heard about Dany and Drogo's baby.
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Old 03-22-2016, 04:42 PM
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I thought this was pretty neat foreshadowing for Theon:
Quote:
Bran PoV
Theon Greyjoy had once commented that Hodor did not know much, but no one could doubt that he knew his name.
There's actually a lot of great foreshadowing in aGoT. Several characters (Jon and Tyrion) say "You Starks are hard to kill," foreshadowing the fact that essentially every single Stark dies or is at least presumed dead at some point, many of which either aren't dead or come back from the dead.

There's a couple interesting quotes that seem to indicate Arya will die if she doesn't return to Westeros and become a Stark again:
Quote:
Jon to Arya
You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.
Quote:
Eddard to Arya
Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
Basically just foreshadowing that Arya will leave the House of Black and White and flee Braavos for Westeros.


I've noticed this before, but I've always thought this was really cool: everyone notices the direwolf that's been killed by the stag right at the beginning in Bran's first PoV. Even though the symbolism isn't fully explained, it's obviously meant to show that House Baratheon will lead to the downfall of House Stark. But later on when Robert goes hunting, he isn't searching for the giant boar at first but a white hart. He doesn't start looking for the boar until this happens:
Quote:
Littlefinger to Eddard
They found the white hart, it seems...or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of a monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it.
So we literally get the exact opposite symbolism: that House Stark will lead to the downfall of House Baratheon (or Robert, at least--maybe Renly and Stannis are the hoof and the horn?). Anyway, I thought this was cool; I don't see people talk about it that much. It's also interesting to note that a white hart is sort of a legendary stag, just as a direwolf is sort of a legendary wolf.


And this makes me wonder, is House Baratheon completely gone once Stannis dies? Renly had no kids, and GRRM I think has confirmed that Stannis's daughter Shireen will in fact die in the books as well as the show (though not necessarily in the same manner). Tommen and Myrcella are still kicking around, but even with the illegitimacy aside, it's heavily foreshadowed that they'll both die soon. I suppose it's possible for Stannis to still have a male heir, but unlikely at this point in the story, regardless of the outcome of the Battle of Winterfell. I checked the appendix at the end of aDwD (the most detailed one), and the only other relatives it lists for Tommen are some Estermont cousins and uncles. So it seems as though the Baratheon line will be completely destroyed once Stannis bites it.
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Old 03-22-2016, 05:17 PM
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And this makes me wonder, is House Baratheon completely gone once Stannis dies? Renly had no kids, and GRRM I think has confirmed that Stannis's daughter Shireen will in fact die in the books as well as the show (though not necessarily in the same manner). Tommen and Myrcella are still kicking around, but even with the illegitimacy aside, it's heavily foreshadowed that they'll both die soon. I suppose it's possible for Stannis to still have a male heir, but unlikely at this point in the story, regardless of the outcome of the Battle of Winterfell. I checked the appendix at the end of aDwD (the most detailed one), and the only other relatives it lists for Tommen are some Estermont cousins and uncles. So it seems as though the Baratheon line will be completely destroyed once Stannis bites it.
There are still his actual bastards - most notably Edric Storm, but also Mya Stone and Gendry. If he survives, Edric will likely become legitimized eventually. And if he doesn't, either Gendry and/or Mya.
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