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  #1  
Old 10-11-2015, 05:20 PM
sleepinghour sleepinghour is offline
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Default Companion spoiler thread

Since a fair portion of the Companion is now available at Amazon through the "look inside the book" feature, and the other preview thread was getting long, here's a new thread to discuss the encyclopedia's contents.

Please note that spoilers will run rampant here, so this is not the place for those who wish to remain unspoiled until the entire book is out.
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Old 10-11-2015, 06:19 PM
sleepinghour sleepinghour is offline
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Possible errors and inconsistencies:
  • Adeleas' entry says she and Vandene retired in 970 NE to Tifan's Well in Arafel. However, TPoD chapter 38 implies it was 70 years ago (around 930 NE). (p19)
  • Aviendha's strength is said to be 11(2), with no mentions of having a greater potential, though the books claim her potential was equal to Elayne and Egwene's, 8(+5). The + sign is also missing; it should be +2. (p90)
  • Cadsuane's strength is said to be 5(+8) in her own and Tamela's entry, but 9(+4) in Nicola's. (p532, 721)
  • Losaine's strength is said to be 22(15). Level 22 on the new list corresponds to 10 on the old one. (p430)
  • Metarra's strength is said to be 9(4), "roughly equal to Egwene and Elayne" who are in fact one level above her. This may not be an error depending on whether it refers to their current strength, or "roughly" includes the strength level above. The + sign is also missing; it should be +4. (p486)
  • Sorilea's strength is said to be 57(35). Level 57 on the new list corresponds to 45 on the old one.

If anyone notices other inconsistencies, please let me know and I'll add them to the list.

Last edited by sleepinghour; 10-13-2015 at 07:32 AM.
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:09 PM
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I kinda wish they'd lock it down...they're giving away way too much of the book with the preview.
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Old 10-11-2015, 07:57 PM
sleepinghour sleepinghour is offline
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I kinda wish they'd lock it down...they're giving away way too much of the book with the preview.
Yeah, I was surprised by how much was available, and several weeks before release date. I'm guessing this is very much an unintentional side effect of Amazon's preview and search feature. When it comes to regular books, there isn't much to gain from getting bits and pieces. But in the case of an encyclopedia, you can extract quite a lot of information from those pieces. However, I don't think it's a coincidence that most of the important entries (Rand, Moiraine, most Forsaken, Perrin, Lan, Egwene) are excluded from the previews. So they probably took some precautions to keep all the juicy tidbits from being spoiled early.

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Interesting that Cadsuane's strength shows so much variation in the book itself. I can't believe they'd miss something so obvious.
To be fair, it sounds like RJ had different strengths for Cadsuane, so they settled on one, but forgot to adjust Nicola's entry where it's mentioned her potential was equal to Cadsuane. But I think it would have made more sense to go with the lower strength, as this is more consistent with what's been said in the books.

Another, very minor issue which is mainly noticeable when you make an Excel spreadsheet with the different lists is that a few strengths don't match up. For example, Sorilea's strength is said to be 57/35, but 57 should be 45 in the old list. So, I'm guessing they might have had Sorilea listed as a 57 somewhere and miscalculated the other number. There are a few cases like this.

(Not trying to make bloopers/complaints the focus of this thread, as that would ruin all the fun, but it's difficult to make sense of the OP strength list without taking the tiny inconsistencies into account.)

Last edited by sleepinghour; 10-11-2015 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 10-11-2015, 09:01 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Another, very minor issue which is mainly noticeable when you make an Excel spreadsheet with the different lists is that a few strengths don't match up. For example, Sorilea's strength is said to be 57/35, but 57 should be 45 in the old list. So, I'm guessing they might have had Sorilea listed as a 57 somewhere and miscalculated the other number. There are a few cases like this.
Yeah, that's why I've been exclusively looking at the first number, which is from the new list. The old list is a curiosity, it doesn't much help if we have to rank all the characters.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:49 AM
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Yeah, that's why I've been exclusively looking at the first number, which is from the new list. The old list is a curiosity, it doesn't much help if we have to rank all the characters.
Thing is, we don't know which of those two numbers is correct. If it says 57(35), is Sorilea's actual strength supposed to be 57(45) or 47(35)? Since it's Sorilea, I'm guessing the lowest level is the right one, but we don't know for sure. There are a few other cases like this where either number could be right.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:32 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Thing is, we don't know which of those two numbers is correct. If it says 57(35), is Sorilea's actual strength supposed to be 57(45) or 47(35)? Since it's Sorilea, I'm guessing the lowest level is the right one, but we don't know for sure. There are a few other cases like this where either number could be right.
It is definitely the lowest one. If she were level 47, she wouldn't be "so weak as to make Daigian look moderately strong", since Daigian is level 45.
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Old 10-12-2015, 10:03 AM
C Rutherford C Rutherford is offline
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Whichever level it is, I still find it odd that there are plenty of levels below Sorilea. I can see maybe five between her and Morgase but fifteen? Or more? Too bad we can't find out why Jordan saw so many variations at that end of the spectrum and yet had such a tight race at the top as it were. Even if you take into account the addition with the superpowered women, it seems rather narrow in some ways.
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Old 10-12-2015, 11:34 AM
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Whichever level it is, I still find it odd that there are plenty of levels below Sorilea. I can see maybe five between her and Morgase but fifteen? Or more?
In the notes, RJ was considering a range of strengths for Sorilea, between 51(39) and 60(48), but he noted that she was probably "toward the bottom" of that range. We did not see a strength level noted for Morgase, but in his COT/KOD notes he said that 57(45) is the level where the ability to lift anything with the Power drops to a feather, so we figured that was about the strength he had in mind for Morgase, maybe a little lower.
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Old 10-12-2015, 12:02 PM
C Rutherford C Rutherford is offline
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Thank you very much. I greatly appreciate the insight you have and hopefully will keep providing. I actually like hearing about the discrepancies like this as it provides a view towards the thought processes of RJ and adds to the fact that since he never really finished the series as it should have been unfortunately and wasn't really given the chance to even tackle a project like this, it provides the type of legacy I think he and the series then deserve if that makes sense. So much of my late childhood and early adulthood was given over to exploring all the what ifs and red herrings and clues and all the underpinings to what I still consider my favorite fantasy world. So if I cannot have the definitive Robert Jordan guide/encycopledia, I would rather enjoy what we get and spiced with such tidbits as you feel proper to divulge.

I hope to explore the notes myself but even more I am hoping that the creation process is a legacy that should not be destroyed or kept to a few even if that few someday includes myself. I'd really like to see someone tackle the variances in a more essay approach to matters and characters and segments of the whole series that either transitioned into being foundational elements or were discarded or transformed from the original in such a way they are unrecognizable when they became part of the series.

Again thank you very much.

Just speaking for myself, but I also think Jordan likely made up his mind as he wrote and maybe just did not go back and take the time to update the notes. Things like these strength issues, I will still rely on the series as the 'canon'. For me, Cadsuane is just below Elayne because the series places the majority of evidence in that regard. Sorilea when coupled with the Kin members who fall below the Tower's admission criteria makes me place her towards the bottom of the scale than what the guide now seems to say. Meilyn's age I find problematic. Vandene and Adeleas' retirement I find problematic.

But I think I am okay with that. I think that discrepancies like this show that maybe they are not cleaned up too much and that Jordan's creative processes are allowed to peek through on occasion.
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Old 10-12-2015, 01:32 PM
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Vandene and Adeleas' retirement I find problematic.
Just wondering, what was the issue with Vandene and Adeleas' retirement?
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:36 PM
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Disappointingly, Valan Luca's entry remains cloaked in mystery. Only by searching for "well-turned calves" was I able to uncover a few, tantalizing sentences from it. (FYI, the only other entry that particular search term brought forth was Toram Riatin's, which doesn't bode well for Galad's entry, I regret to say.) Aside from his well-turned calves, we also learn that Valan Luca was six feet tall and had broad shoulders.

I had also expected more mentions of pillow friendships, but Bera and Kiruna has been the only surprise, so far. Seonid was confirmed to be a lesbian, which settles that debate.
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Old 10-12-2015, 02:47 PM
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I had also expected more mentions of pillow friendships, but Bera and Kiruna has been the only surprise, so far.
I don't know if "surprise" is really the right word. Though I did get the impression that there was a gulf between them in terms of attractiveness. I wonder if channelers are just instinctively attracted (in all ways) to people whose strength equals their own.

I considered writing an alternative timeline fanfic set at the end of the 2nd Age and shipping Lanfear and Semirhage. I think they would be good for each other.
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Old 10-12-2015, 04:17 PM
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I don't know if "surprise" is really the right word. Though I did get the impression that there was a gulf between them in terms of attractiveness.
Yeah, they seemed a bit of an odd couple in that Kiruna was the beautiful, queenly type (and was in fact the sister of a King) while Bera was always described as looking like a farmwife. Apparently they were pillow friends when they were younger and went on to men exclusively, but remained close friends. So they remind a bit of Moiraine and Siuan.

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I wonder if channelers are just instinctively attracted (in all ways) to people whose strength equals their own.

I considered writing an alternative timeline fanfic set at the end of the 2nd Age and shipping Lanfear and Semirhage. I think they would be good for each other.
Well, Lanfear would enjoy being part of a "power couple," and Semirhage would be just too terrifying for most everyone else. Interestingly, Mesaana's entry mentioned a "close and rather peculiar" relationship with Demandred and Semirhage, which probably shouldn't be interpreted as a wacky threesome romance, but was an interesting tidbit nonetheless.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:50 PM
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Yeah, they seemed a bit of an odd couple in that Kiruna was the beautiful, queenly type (and was in fact the sister of a King) while Bera was always described as looking like a farmwife. Apparently they were pillow friends when they were younger and went on to men exclusively, but remained close friends. So they remind a bit of Moiraine and Siuan.
Definitely. Cue Perrin:

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Originally Posted by Perrin LOC
By smell he would have said Bera or Kiruna was the leader; Bera, he thought, though it was close and sometimes seemed to shift the other way for a time.
So it seems the farmwife leads among them.

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Well, Lanfear would enjoy being part of a "power couple," and Semirhage would be just too terrifying for most everyone else. Interestingly, Mesaana's entry mentioned a "close and rather peculiar" relationship with Demandred and Semirhage, which probably shouldn't be interpreted as a wacky threesome romance, but was an interesting tidbit nonetheless.
Yeah, I tend to doubt that. I suspect it was peculiar because they could tolerate working with each other for so long. All three of them probably had a pretty good sense of how easily they could be picked off if they worked alone, and that made them different than most of the other Forsaken. They were able to persist without the power struggles that handicapped other potential alliances among the Forsaken because they were, in a sense, very pragmatic people.
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Old 10-12-2015, 08:22 PM
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Talking of Kiruna, I was able to read some more snippets on her. Apparently, she tried to run away and join the Tower, twice when she was 12, and twice more when she was 13. The second time, she actually made it to the Tower, but was sent back because she was too young. She was finally accepted at 14 because of her determination, and apparently her fierce desire to be Aes Sedai was "well known" in the Tower.

Also, the Red Ajah has a secret ceremony called the Grand Emergence, where they walk through a warded place, and still speak in a guarded way. It was a plan for seizing the Tower, "should the need arise".

Interestingly, Katerine joined the BA in 987 NE, 5 years after she was raised to the shawl, so she wasn't marked out by Merean or anything.

Merean was Andoran, and had a Warder early on, but never bonded another after he died. Rumor was that she loved him, but he had been a Darkfriend, and she didn't find it easy to get a replacement and without the Three Oaths, never found the need.

Merean, incidentally, killed Larelle soon after Moiraine and Siuan fled. Larelle was one of Tamra's searchers, though neither Moiraine or Siuan knew this to save her. This confirms that there were more women that Siuan or Moiraine knew of. They all seem to have been very strong in the Power, apart from being adherents of the Law.

The Mistress of Novices, incidentally, could be chosen by the Hall and forced on an Amyrlin. She had absolute authority over her charges, and could defy even the Amyrlin Seat, or the lesser consensus of the Hall. Only the Greater Consensus could overrule her. This is interesting, because it explains why Elaida had to order Silviana's arrest. If she allowed her to continue as MoN, she'd need a Greater Consensus from the Hall to keep Egwene imprisoned, which she was highly unlikely to get. So she substituted Katerine for the post.

Lelaine: She was only named First Selector after the Tower split, meaning the previous head died. She apparently was fond of Logain as a "fierce dog she had tamed". Whoa. Also, she and her faction tried to use tel'aran'rhiod to spy on Rand.

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Old 10-12-2015, 05:54 PM
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Just wondering, what was the issue with Vandene and Adeleas' retirement?
In the Adeleas entry it says she and Vandene went into retirement in 970 NE. Yet in the books it says they retired 70 years prior (about 930 NE). Lots of sisters are alive to remember 30 years ago. Heck Romanda didn't stun anyone when she came out of her retirement which was only a couple years off and she is older. The description about them being a secret resource of Moiraine's makes more sense if they retired 70 years ago in big part because so many older sisters who would have known them and been contemporaries were apparently killed off by the Black Ajah. That nature didn't take care of that is.

I do think it is interesting that Cetalia was killed by the Black Ajah. Also it looks like 981 saw three sitters needed which might also point to at least part of the Black Ajah's spree.
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Old 10-12-2015, 07:38 PM
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In the Adeleas entry it says she and Vandene went into retirement in 970 NE. Yet in the books it says they retired 70 years prior (about 930 NE). Lots of sisters are alive to remember 30 years ago. Heck Romanda didn't stun anyone when she came out of her retirement which was only a couple years off and she is older. The description about them being a secret resource of Moiraine's makes more sense if they retired 70 years ago in big part because so many older sisters who would have known them and been contemporaries were apparently killed off by the Black Ajah. That nature didn't take care of that is.
But Vandene and Adeleas weren't prominent powerful sisters. While the 70 vs. 30 thing is a discrepancy, it doesn't change a lot in book. Cadsuane was seen 20 years ago, yet everyone is shocked to see her alive.

Quote:
I do think it is interesting that Cetalia was killed by the Black Ajah. Also it looks like 981 saw three sitters needed which might also point to at least part of the Black Ajah's spree.
Wow, this is in the Companion? Can I get some key words so I can search for the right text?

Not surprising though. She was the head of the Blue network. Siuan herself points out in NS how she might be able to track the Black's activity if they go around killing men and boys. Who better than the head of the network to sift through the patterns, and arrive at the exact same conclusion Siuan did? In fact, she may well have gone to Sierin Vayu, who already had an inkling of some crazy stuff happening from Siuan's note.

The fact that a Blue then stepped in a and so effectively ended the pogroms adds to this theory, I feel.

Last edited by fionwe1987; 10-12-2015 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:14 PM
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But Vandene and Adeleas weren't prominent powerful sisters. While the 70 vs. 30 thing is a discrepancy, it doesn't change a lot in book. Cadsuane was seen 20 years ago, yet everyone is shocked to see her alive.
And Romanda is not. And the matter of shock is not the point. The establishment of them as 70 years in retirement is. It is who they are in the books from the time Moiraine visits them to the time they reveal a significant aspect in the Garenia reveal. You might not think so. But I do. and I've consulted the judges and that is what matters For me.

I simply don't think I'm going to throw away a discrepancy as such or mattering as much because someone else thinks it matters or doesn't matter that much. No offense. And I expect you will use your own judgement for yourself in the same manner.

Plus I think some of the shock is simply due to the fact that some assumed she was dead because she had been quiet for so long. Certainly more than two dozen sisters who took Logain knew she was alive more than a year before she shows up in the books. Unless she wore a mask and rode off into the sunset.


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Wow, this is in the Companion? Can I get some key words so I can search for the right text?
Err....Cetalia Delarme? Didn't even need to do a search when I read it. Page 150. Was available just scrolling down the pages for preview.
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Old 10-12-2015, 09:35 PM
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I'm fairly disappointed that there are so many apparent mistakes in the Companion so far. You'd think the editing would be nearly perfect after this many years.
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"We caught them in an alley on skid row in downtown Philly and brought them down with Uzi's and dogs. I beat the shit out of one of the guys for resisting arrest. After that, I went home, fried up some tofu with strawberry preserves and melon sticky rice, laid down on the couch with my snuggie and ate rose petals in sweet daisy wine sauce and watched Mamma Mia on DVD and then cried myself to sleep."

Theoryland: Just Some Crazy In A Pot
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