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  #1  
Old 05-05-2016, 06:48 PM
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Default Penn State deserves the death penalty

Joe Paterno knew about Sandusky in 1976.

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/05...e_paterno.html
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Old 05-05-2016, 08:14 PM
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At this point, the death penalty just punishes innocent people
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Old 05-05-2016, 08:22 PM
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At this point, the death penalty just punishes innocent people
In terms of the current players, who have nothing to do with the wrong-doing, yes. But they can transfer and play somewhere else.

It is, however, very difficult to feel sympathetic to the university or its fans, when they still defend and lionize Joe Paterno. Or when they have continued to fight back against both their criminal and civil liability, and against the sanctions previously handed down from the ncaa - here, inexplicably, with success. Or that after Bill O'Brien fled to the nfl, that they replaced him with another man (James Franklin) with a very checkered-past of liability in covering up sexual assaults while at the helm at Vanderbilt.

If there was ever another program that deserved the SMU treatment, it is clearly Penn State. All SMU did was pay players. Hell, half of the SEC does that. Ole Miss doesn't even bother to be coy about it. Penn State worships a man who harbored and enabled a child predator.

Last edited by Kimon; 05-05-2016 at 08:30 PM.
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Old 05-06-2016, 10:32 PM
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This one is from 1971. Again, with direct obstruction by Joe Paterno.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/06/us/jer...inkId=24234146

Sandusky is in jail. Paterno has escaped justice (because he's dead - otherwise he'd be rotting in jail). Penn State is just as culpable in this as Paterno. They shouldn't be allowed to escape justice.
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Old 05-07-2016, 08:16 PM
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They should find a way to bring JoePa back from the dead...just so they can kill him again.

PSU fans are still in total denial of course.
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Old 05-08-2016, 05:03 PM
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On open letter from the president of Penn State...

http://news.psu.edu/story/409338/201...garding-recent

Quote:
Dear Friends:

Over the past few days, allegations have surfaced from individuals who claim to be Sandusky victims and from unidentified individuals about the alleged knowledge of former University employees. None of these allegations about the supposed knowledge of University employees has been substantiated in a court of law or in any other process to test their veracity.

I want you to know I am appalled by the rumor, innuendo and rush to judgment that have accompanied the media stories surrounding these allegations. All too often in our society, people are convicted in the court of public opinion, only to find a different outcome when all the facts are presented.

In contrast, over the last two days we have worked to be diligent in reanalyzing the record of reports and depositions to ensure that our reactions and comments are both responsible and trustworthy.

First, the allegations related to Penn State are simply not established fact. The two allegations related to knowledge by Coach Paterno are unsubstantiated and unsupported by any evidence other than a claim by an alleged victim. They date from the 1970s. Coach Paterno is not alive to refute them. His family has denied them.

Second, we cannot find any evidence, related to a settlement or otherwise, that an alleged early assault was communicated to Coach Paterno. This raises considerable credibility issues as to this press report. Others cite assistant coaches that were witnesses or had knowledge – stating it as fact in headlines and text – even in the face of a denial and clear failure to corroborate from the individuals allegedly involved. Other stories are clearly incredulous, and should be difficult for any reasonable person to believe. We should not be rendering judgments about the actions of Coach Paterno or any other former employees of Penn State based on incomplete, sensationalized media accounts.

I can think of few crimes as heinous as the sexual assault of a child. We are, as individuals and as an institution, appalled by Sandusky’s actions, and unified in our commitment to prevention, treatment and education. I encourage you to visit this link for information on Penn State’s commitment.

Unfortunately, we can’t control the 24/7 news cycle, and the tendency of some individuals in social media and the blogosphere to rush to judgment. But I have had enough of the continued trial of the institution in various media. We have all had enough. And while Penn State cannot always comment on allegations that emanate from legal proceedings, I thought it was important to let you know my reaction to the media frenzy that has ensued over the past few days. I am appalled.

Sincerely,

Eric Barron
President
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Old 05-08-2016, 07:03 PM
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What a joke.
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:24 PM
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On open letter from the president of Penn State...
The problem with this is that it comes off as defending a sex offender. We know Sandusky, and by extension Paterno, was guilty; it's perfectly within the limits of logic to believe this new accuser. And even if not, this is an inappropriate reaction by President Barron. The balance of our sympathy must always be overwhelmingly with victims, actual and potential.

It would be one thing if this was the first were hearing of anything. But it boggles the mind that Mr. Barron can so strenuously defend the legacy of proven sex offenders. His university was complicit in the most horrifying crime possible to commit; the sooner they accept responsibility and try to honestly atone, the better for everyone involved. They're already irredeemably guilty; fighting new allegations doesn't help anything or anyone.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:35 PM
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Ozy, how many most horrifying crimes are there? I thought you put genocide on top of that list.
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Old 05-10-2016, 03:14 PM
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Ozy, how many most horrifying crimes are there? I thought you put genocide on top of that list.
Sorry, I assumed people here would be using their brains.

One person can't commit genocide (unless the group in question is vanishingly small by demographic standards).

But, for those of us a little less with the program than others, I will amend.

Crimes against children are second to crimes against entire population groups, which, SHOCKINGLY, include children.
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Old 05-10-2016, 03:23 PM
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Sorry, I assumed people here would be using their brains.
Why would you assume that? You never use yours.
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Old 05-11-2016, 01:07 AM
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guys, ad hominem much?
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:36 AM
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guys, ad hominem much?
Not exactly. I may have ridiculed him, but it's a conclusion based on his arguments not an attempt to counter them. As usual I'm not disagreeing with his general opinion, but the minor details. In this particular case his use of a superlative where he doesn't truly mean it. That's an emotional dramatisation which shows that once again he is focused on the surface of things rather than the subtleties.

If you touch a hot stove you immediately draw your hand away. It's a reflex reaction to the pain felt through your sense of touch. There are many ways in which we reflexively react to our physical senses and it happens everyday which is all well and good. But we also have mental senses or at least one mental sense through which we have the sensations we call emotions. Fear and delight are the mental equivalents of the pain and pleasure our bodies feel.

And now we come to the point because just as with your hand and the hot stove, people sometimes react to their emotions without involving their brains, which is what Ozy does all too much. Most of what we see from him is his angry or fearful reactions and the justifications he offers for those emotions. We don't see actual contemplation from him and as that requires the ability to rise above one's emotional reactions, I assume we don't see it because he doesn't have that ability. Of course I could be wrong absense of evidence not being evidence of absense, but since my personal opinion is that having and not using is worse than not having in this particular case, I feel I've been generous with him.
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Old 05-11-2016, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Not exactly. I may have ridiculed him, but it's a conclusion based on his arguments not an attempt to counter them. As usual I'm not disagreeing with his general opinion, but the minor details. In this particular case his use of a superlative where he doesn't truly mean it. That's an emotional dramatisation which shows that once again he is focused on the surface of things rather than the subtleties.

If you touch a hot stove you immediately draw your hand away. It's a reflex reaction to the pain felt through your sense of touch. There are many ways in which we reflexively react to our physical senses and it happens everyday which is all well and good. But we also have mental senses or at least one mental sense through which we have the sensations we call emotions. Fear and delight are the mental equivalents of the pain and pleasure our bodies feel.

And now we come to the point because just as with your hand and the hot stove, people sometimes react to their emotions without involving their brains, which is what Ozy does all too much. Most of what we see from him is his angry or fearful reactions and the justifications he offers for those emotions. We don't see actual contemplation from him and as that requires the ability to rise above one's emotional reactions, I assume we don't see it because he doesn't have that ability. Of course I could be wrong absense of evidence not being evidence of absense, but since my personal opinion is that having and not using is worse than not having in this particular case, I feel I've been generous with him.
How do I put it so that you understand... it's like a pot and a sieve. The one is useful for one thing, the other is useful for something else; it does not however mean that one is by definition better than the other. And neither of them is much use when you need to chop wood.

you're like a sieve that wants all the pots in the world to be sieves. But why? Just because it's "logical"? I mean, one can drain macaroni fine without a sieve. Sure, it's perhaps not the most *efficient* way of going about the activity but the end result is still satisfactory. So what if some (read: most) people approach moral and ethical dilemmas, such as serious crimes against other humans/humanity, from an emotional point of view rather than the etherally logical.




dammit, now I'm hungry.



also, you have previously admitted to using the "it's only logical" approach just to get a rise out of people. So I don't really know why I've bothered to answer in the first place. Particularly since 1) it's not my fight and 2) I don't actually agree with Ozy on this point.


*wanders off in search of a sandwich*
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Old 05-11-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
How do I put it so that you understand... it's like a pot and a sieve. The one is useful for one thing, the other is useful for something else; it does not however mean that one is by definition better than the other. And neither of them is much use when you need to chop wood.

you're like a sieve that wants all the pots in the world to be sieves. But why? Just because it's "logical"? I mean, one can drain macaroni fine without a sieve. Sure, it's perhaps not the most *efficient* way of going about the activity but the end result is still satisfactory. So what if some (read: most) people approach moral and ethical dilemmas, such as serious crimes against other humans/humanity, from an emotional point of view rather than the etherally logical.
That sieve and pot thing... I think I understand what you are getting at, but in many ways it's not a fitting metaphor. It's not that Ozy is a pot, but that he is only clean on the outside and the inside needs a thorough cleaning before it can be useful. He's a pot and I'm a sieve, but there is the common ground of hygine which all utensils need to be satisfactory in or they just won't be useful.

Right is not the opposite of wrong, but it's absence. This is something emotionally undisciplined people always get wrong. It's not that the emotions are there, but that people aren't responsible with them. If utensils never get dirty from use they are pointless, but they need to be cleaned afterwards.

My problem isn't that other people aren't sieves, but that I'm not a scrubbing brush.

Quote:
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also, you have previously admitted to using the "it's only logical" approach just to get a rise out of people. So I don't really know why I've bothered to answer in the first place. Particularly since 1) it's not my fight and 2) I don't actually agree with Ozy on this point.
Some people won't take a shower until you point out that they smell. It's why I use that approach and also why you keep calling me out. Maybe you're the scrubbing brush and while very useful for the cause of hygine, cleaning sieves is a bit tricky.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Right is not the opposite of wrong, but it's absence.
Kill them all, then justice will be finally done?

I'm not entirely convinced by that theory, though I admit that it has a certain simplistic charm. It's not wholly original, but then, it is deucedly hard to be original in this branch of philosophy.
Sometimes right is the opposite of wrong, often it is something different entirely.

And, to keep things really complicated: pure logic can not come up with a moral system more complicated yet still consistent than the one I suggested in my opening paragraph. So either you do resort to killing all intelligent beings, or you're gonna have to use emotion to worry about morality and ethics. That's one of the things that emotions evolved to do, after all. Applying intelligence to it is a far more recent approach, and not always one that helps much. It is in general a good idea to try to come up with a consistent morality, which does require intelligence to work it out, but expecting this to be fool proof is lunacy.

Edited to add:
I don't really see how applying a sieve and a pot to macaroni makes a sandwich, but I'm sure a really good cook could figure that one out. Probably wouldn't be very logical, though.
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Old 05-11-2016, 12:44 PM
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Kill them all, then justice will be finally done?
Exactly what I mean Gonzo. You aren't supposed to use a wrong to make things right.
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I'm not entirely convinced by that theory, though I admit that it has a certain simplistic charm. It's not wholly original, but then, it is deucedly hard to be original in this branch of philosophy.
Sometimes right is the opposite of wrong, often it is something different entirely.
Give me an example of a right being the opposite of a wrong and I will show you how it either isn't wrong or the other not right or the two not being opposite.
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
And, to keep things really complicated: pure logic can not come up with a moral system more complicated yet still consistent than the one I suggested in my opening paragraph. So either you do resort to killing all intelligent beings, or you're gonna have to use emotion to worry about morality and ethics. That's one of the things that emotions evolved to do, after all. Applying intelligence to it is a far more recent approach, and not always one that helps much. It is in general a good idea to try to come up with a consistent morality, which does require intelligence to work it out, but expecting this to be fool proof is lunacy.

Edited to add:
I don't really see how applying a sieve and a pot to macaroni makes a sandwich, but I'm sure a really good cook could figure that one out. Probably wouldn't be very logical, though.
Your concept of pure logic is lacking. Logic is capable of this, but humans aren't capable of being that logical. There are instincts, emotions and thoughts. A lot of people mistake instincts for emotions and emotions for thoughts.

Lunacy? How many times do I need to tell people that I'm insane?
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Old 05-11-2016, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Not exactly. I may have ridiculed him, but it's a conclusion based on his arguments not an attempt to counter them. As usual I'm not disagreeing with his general opinion, but the minor details. In this particular case his use of a superlative where he doesn't truly mean it. That's an emotional dramatisation which shows that once again he is focused on the surface of things rather than the subtleties.

If you touch a hot stove you immediately draw your hand away. It's a reflex reaction to the pain felt through your sense of touch. There are many ways in which we reflexively react to our physical senses and it happens everyday which is all well and good. But we also have mental senses or at least one mental sense through which we have the sensations we call emotions. Fear and delight are the mental equivalents of the pain and pleasure our bodies feel.

And now we come to the point because just as with your hand and the hot stove, people sometimes react to their emotions without involving their brains, which is what Ozy does all too much. Most of what we see from him is his angry or fearful reactions and the justifications he offers for those emotions. We don't see actual contemplation from him and as that requires the ability to rise above one's emotional reactions, I assume we don't see it because he doesn't have that ability. Of course I could be wrong absense of evidence not being evidence of absense, but since my personal opinion is that having and not using is worse than not having in this particular case, I feel I've been generous with him.
If I have a justification for an emotion, doesn't that by definition mean I've involved my brain? The justification requires thought.

You don't agree with my justifications, which is a world away from the idea that my justifications haven't been thought through. To tie it back to an older disagreement; you see no difference between genocide and mass murder. To me, that requires an almost willful blindness to the complexities of motivation and intent. It's long been established, both legally and morally, that intent is important in assessing both good deeds and bad. I believe (along with the international community at large, I'll note) that the intent to wipe out a mass group of people on the basis of a shared group belief or culture is worse than the desire to wipe out a mass group of people selected at random.

But to the point at hand, there are a couple of gradations of meaning here that anyone not looking to (and forgive my language) be a dick should have intuitively grasped. First and perhaps most importantly, there is a difference between a crime a person can commit and a crime against humanity. This should be obvious with even a moment's thought. Saddam Hussein, for all that he was a genocidal maniac, needed the complicity of tens of thousands of people to make a go of it. Ditto Hitler, or any other genocide throughout history. We assign blame to them, rightly, because they gave the orders. Molesting children put under your authority is a far more personal and intimate crime. It isn't an enormous stretch to say that most social constructs are in place, at their root justification, to assist in the rearing of children. It is also a crime that an individual can commit.

Second, and more to the point of what constitutes reasoned debate - saying that the abuse of children is the most horrifying crime one can commit, having previously said something similar in regards to genocide, is hardly the most egregious crime of contradiction ever uttered. I don't have a list of all possible crimes on my desk to reference when I discuss the many disgusting things humans do to one another. If you want to play "Gotcha!" then by all means do so. I don't think anyone else is sitting around scratching their heads in confusion over where exactly I think the sexual abuse of children relates to the extirpation of ethnic or social groups. The two crimes operate on a different scale, and I'm quite certain that if someone looked back on every statement you've ever uttered, Naz, they'd find two that contain overlapping or slightly contradictory opinions.

I have, on many occasions, offered the background "contemplation" for why I believe or think many of the things I do. And to repeat the initial point, you just don't agree. That doesn't invalidate the point.

And moreover, to be a dick in my turn, I'll point out the inherent ridiculousness of criticizing someone for posting about a topic they're "emotional" about. We're all of us taking time out of our otherwise (hopefully) fulfilling lives to discuss various fictional and non-fictional topics with others; the fact that we invest the time and effort into it demands that there be an emotional element to it, otherwise why would we be here?

When I say something you find "overly emotional" or an example of me having a hot take, such as (and I'll use an inflammatory one here to help you out) my fear of religious fascism, you assume that the "fear" part of it must be dominant, because you don't agree with the logic behind it. But just because you've thrown out the logical basis of my argument doesn't mean it isn't there, and it doesn't even mean its wrong. A year ago, a transgender person living in Raleigh might have done the exact same as you in assuming some fear of mine is invalid, and now that person is being actively discriminated against on thinly-veiled religious grounds.

Sometimes emotions aren't a bad thing in an argument. Reacting with uncontrolled terror and anger because some religious nitwit wants to teach Intelligent Design in schools might seem like an overreaction far exceeding the extent of the action, but the mindset behind inculcating children with a fairy tale at a young age on the public dime is a very, very short step from discriminating against where people who identify as transgender can use the bathroom, a real case of active discrimination. The excessive zeal in diligently resisting the former is just the front line to preventing ever getting to the latter.

... Or, you know, I guess you can just chalk the preceding paragraphs up to me getting all over-emotional about your refusal to acknowledge my shitty, under-thought-out points which I make in the most mentally disturbed state of mind possible, and throw the whole thing out. It's essentially the argument you've made about everything else, without, you know... contemplating where my point of view might come from?
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Old 05-11-2016, 03:43 PM
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Nazbaque Nazbaque is offline
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Would anything less than being a dick motivate such answers from you? Why would you bother proving me wrong if you weren't angry with me?

Ozy, Ozy, Ozy. The thing about me is that I care more about people than I do about their opinions. It's true that we disagree on a number of things, but it's never been enough for me to just leave it at that. You are always so guarded when you post. I get your opinion and I get the emotions attached to it, but that's just the surface. Well in order to get a better look I must prod you and challenge you where simple invitations fail.

So now that you have shown me that you are capable of controlling yourself, why don't you take a moment with me and consider the irony of tropes. Why is it that in all the forms of dramatic fiction a religious person is so often portrayed as humble and the scientist as arrogant? Isn't it clear that it's the other way arround?
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Old 05-11-2016, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nazbaque View Post
Why is it that in all the forms of dramatic fiction a religious person is so often portrayed as humble and the scientist as arrogant? Isn't it clear that it's the other way arround?
Have you seen Agora?

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