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  #1  
Old 05-23-2017, 05:56 PM
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The RIP America thread is 30 pages long and since vbulletin doesn't wrap or condense page number lists it's getting unwieldy.

To sum up the past couple of weeks: Trump fired James Comey, sent his spokepeople out to claim it was because of Comey's misconduct with Hillary, and then contradicted them on the record twice, admitting that he did it to ease the pressure of the Russia investigation which he claims is a made-up story. Then it was revealed that Comey had sent internal memos contemporaneously documenting the times when Trump personally asked him to lay off the investigation. Later it also came out that Trump had similarly pressured the directors of national intelligence and the NSA.

In other news, one of the times that Trump admitted that he fired Comey to end the investigation was when he met with the Russian foreign minister in the Oval Office, which we only have photographs of because a Russian journalist was allowed where American journalists were not, and at that same time he revealed code-word classified information about ISIS that Israel did not give us permission to share with anyone, much less the Russians. Soon after, Trump departed on his first foreign trip as president where he embarrassed himself in front of Netanyahu, saying unprompted in front of a press gaggle that he never once mentioned "Israel" to the Russians, which was incidentally the first time a public official said "Israel" on the record regarding that incident.

Meanwhile special counsel Robert Mueller was appointed by the DOJ to investigate the entire Russia affair. The White House is already trying to undermine him.

It has been confirmed that Trump knew Flynn was under investigation when he hired him. And he reportedly pressured him to take the job even though he didn't want it. Now Flynn is pleading the fifth. Seems like more is coming about about campaign contacts with Russians every day. The investigation is looking into a cover-up. Republicans are coming out for impeachment. Rubio thinks people got what they voted for. McConnell's friends think he might come around soon.

This is a really terrible summary, lest anyone think it's thorough. I tried.
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Old 05-23-2017, 06:24 PM
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You forgot the most important thing; Trump is making Ommpa Loompas look bad to the whole world.
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Old 05-23-2017, 08:34 PM
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Trumps phone call with Duterte makes me want to puke. The guy is murdering people by the thousands and Trump thinks that's worth a congratulatory phone call. Of all the terrible things he's done, this might just be the worst.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Trumps phone call with Duterte makes me want to puke. The guy is murdering people by the thousands and Trump thinks that's worth a congratulatory phone call. Of all the terrible things he's done, this might just be the worst.
Trump literally LOVES 3rd world dictator/strongmen. That alone should be the scariest thing to any American who actually loves our democratic tradition. This guy literally wishes he was a dictator who murders his own people. How the fuck can anyone support him.

Oh, and good summary of the last few weeks, T.
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Old 05-23-2017, 11:25 PM
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Can one of the mods lock down the RIP America thread? Do we have any non-Wot Mods anymore?
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Old 05-24-2017, 12:21 AM
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Can one of the mods lock down the RIP America thread? Do we have any non-Wot Mods anymore?
Aside from bossman, I have no idea.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:10 AM
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Today's latest news...Trump may be bringing back Corey Lewandowski to handle his crisis management as part of his response to the Russia probe.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...e-im-coming-in
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Trump literally LOVES 3rd world dictator/strongmen. That alone should be the scariest thing to any American who actually loves our democratic tradition. This guy literally wishes he was a dictator who murders his own people. How the fuck can anyone support him.

Oh, and good summary of the last few weeks, T.
Except, that would also apply to most American Presidents. As I've argued here before, for all of George W Bush's many faults, he was no friend to dictatorship, and was one of the first President's of whom that can be said.
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:02 PM
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Except, that would also apply to most American Presidents. As I've argued here before, for all of George W Bush's many faults, he was no friend to dictatorship, and was one of the first President's of whom that can be said.
Did you, or a lot of your friends and family personally serve in the 2nd Iraq War? I continue to be confused by your unwillingness to admit just how massive a mistake not just the restructuring of Iraq was, but that the decision to remove Saddam in the first place was a massively disastrous miscalculation that coupled with the subsequent disenfranchising of the Sunni in Iraq (especially the decision not to fold most of the Baathists into the new govt, just as we did after WWII with most of the Nazis), led to the destabilizing of both the country and the region, and hence directly led to the rise of ISIS. Furthermore, while he had an obsessive hatred for Saddam, he still was friends with most of the other despots in the Middle East - Sharon (yes, I'm including that pos, just like Israel's current pos, with all these other thugs), the Saudis, Mubarak, not to mention all the other local royalists (qatar, kuwait, jordan - jordan's king abdullah ii actually seems like a pretty good ruler). The Younger Bush's stance towards dictators was pretty typical in terms of expectations for an American president. Trump's is not.

More on topic, the CBO on the House Trumpcare Bill has been released:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/24/u...alth-care.html

Quote:
WASHINGTON — A bill to dismantle the Affordable Care Act that narrowly passed the House this month would increase the projected number of people without health insurance by 14 million next year and by 23 million in 2026, the Congressional Budget Office said Wednesday. That 10-year figure is slightly less than originally estimated.

It would reduce the federal deficit by $119 billion over a decade, less than the $150 billion in savings projected in late March for an earlier version of the bill. And in states that seek waivers from rules mandating essential health coverage, the new law could make insurance economically out of reach for some sick consumers.

“Premiums would vary significantly according to health status and the types of benefits provided, and less healthy people would face extremely high premiums,” the budget office concluded
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:46 PM
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The Washington Post has yet another example both of Russian intervention, and of Comey's stupidity (or complicity)...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.f1abfd922582

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In the midst of the 2016 presidential primary season, the FBI received a purported Russian intelligence document describing a tacit understanding between the campaign of Hillary Clinton and the Justice Department over the inquiry into whether she intentionally revealed classified information through her use of a private email server.

The Russian document mentioned a supposed email describing how then-Attorney General Loretta E. Lynch had privately assured someone in the Clinton campaign that the email investigation would not push too deeply into the matter — a conversation that if made public would cast doubt on the inquiry’s integrity.

Current and former officials have said that document played a significant role in the July decision by then-FBI Director James B. Comey to announce on his own, without Justice Department involvement, that the investigation was over. That public announcement — in which he criticized Clinton and made extensive comments about the evidence — set in motion a chain of other FBI moves that Democrats now say helped Trump win the presidential election.

But according to the FBI’s own assessment, the document was bad intelligence — and according to people familiar with its contents, possibly even a fake sent to confuse the bureau.
Quote:
The document, obtained by the FBI, was a piece of purported analysis by Russian intelligence, the people said. It referred to an email supposedly written by the then-chair of the Democratic National Committee, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.), and sent to Leonard Benardo, an official with the Open Society Foundations, an organization founded by billionaire George Soros and dedicated to promoting democracy.

The Russian document did not contain a copy of the email, but it described some of the contents of the purported message.
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From the moment the bureau received the document from a source in early March 2016, its veracity was the subject of an internal debate at the FBI. Several people familiar with the matter said the bureau’s doubts about the document hardened in August when officials became more certain that there was nothing to substantiate the claims in the Russian document. FBI officials knew the bureau never had the underlying email with the explosive allegation, if it ever existed.

Yet senior officials at the bureau continued to rely on the document before and after the election as part of their justification for how they handled the case.

Wasserman Schultz and Benardo said in separate interviews with The Washington Post that they do not know each other and have never communicated. Renteria, in an interview, and people familiar with Lynch’s account said the two also do not know each other and have never communicated. Lynch declined to comment for this article.

Moreover, Wasserman Schultz, Benardo and Renteria said they have never been interviewed by the FBI about the matter.
So, Comey knew that the Russians were meddling in the election, were using Wikileaks to hack the DNC, but somehow couldn't figure out that this was obviously just disinformation?
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Old 05-24-2017, 05:51 PM
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Did you, or a lot of your friends and family personally serve in the 2nd Iraq War
I fail to see the relevance of the question?

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I continue to be confused by your unwillingness to admit just how massive a mistake not just the restructuring of Iraq was, but that the decision to remove Saddam in the first place was a massively disastrous miscalculation that coupled with the subsequent disenfranchising of the Sunni in Iraq (especially the decision not to fold most of the Baathists into the new govt, just as we did after WWII with most of the Nazis)
Well the restructuring as horribly bungled, which I've always agreed with. The decision to remove Saddam could not have been better; it's one of the few times American foreign policy has combined to be both moral and geopolitically correct. However poorly the aftermath was handled, that remains true.

And in practice, there was a massive difference between the Nazi Party and Ba'athist Party. Nazism was so prevalent in wartime Germany that to ban any Nazi-affiliated people from government would effectively leave the country without anyone to govern it. Ba'athism was far less enthusiastically embraced and there were significant minority populations in place that had been oppressed by the Ba'ath Party and could conceivably reconstitute a government. I don't know what the right answer to the question is; it goes part and parcel with the shortsightedness of the campaign to remove Saddam. We needed to be ready to stay there for the long term to set up a functioning government, and Bush wasn't. It's worth pointing out that Sunni's weren't totally disenfranchised and retain numerous rights, both effectively and constitutionally.

Quote:
led to the destabilizing of both the country and the region, and hence directly led to the rise of ISIS.
It played a part. But you cannot exculpate other regional players like Iran for not exploiting the mismanagement of reconstruction for their own ends. If Iraq had not had to deal with an Iranian funded insurgency, we might have a very different geopolitical picture in the Middle East as the new government found time to gain it's footing.

Again, the postwar period was horribly bungled and not planned for properly. But removing Saddam should have been done decades previously. Every possible crime, both in letter and spirit, that a government can violate, he did. He was an active threat to his neighbors, and the world at large. His genocidal campaigns against his own people are well-documented. He deserved much worse than he got.

Quote:
Furthermore, while he had an obsessive hatred for Saddam, he still was friends with most of the other despots in the Middle East....
Well, I'd argue the Saudi's are an interesting case to discuss a dictatorship, which to me strongly implies a narrow power base exploiting key political offices, a culture of fear, and the military to assert itself over the majority of the population. Which... isn't necessarily the case in Saudi Arabia? I don't read much about the native population being restless.

But in any case, he was no better and no worse than most other American presidents. It's not like Mr. Obama did much in that arena, either.

Quote:
The Younger Bush's stance towards dictators was pretty typical in terms of expectations for an American president. Trump's is not.
I agree about Trump. But I think his actions in regard to the Taliban and Saddam show just how atypical his attitude was. Those are both governments that previous administrations had propped up or left alone despite horrible human rights abuses because it was politically expedient. We can thank one of the great war criminals of the century in Henry Kissinger for that.
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Old 05-24-2017, 06:02 PM
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I fail to see the relevance of the question?
As all the rest of your response makes clear, there is no logical reason for your stance. Removing Saddam was incredibly and obviously foolish. Yet you continue to try to justify that decision. If you felt a personal attachment to that failed mission it would help explain your stance. Otherwise...

Quote:
And in practice, there was a massive difference between the Nazi Party and Ba'athist Party. Nazism was so prevalent in wartime Germany that to ban any Nazi-affiliated people from government would effectively leave the country without anyone to govern it.
The Baathists were both the govt and the army. Ridding the new govt of them thus not only removed all able administrators and officers, but also meant ridding the govt of all experienced and trusted Sunni voices, as the Baathists were with very few exceptions, like Saddam's Christian foreign minister, Tariq Aziz, Sunni. Refusing to include the Baathists thus not only alienated the Sunni, but it meant handing power exclusively to the Shia, which meant essentially handing power of to Iran - since they were the only Shia power, and neighbors. Iran didn't fund the insurgency, they directed and manipulated the govt that we installed, and funded the militias that fought against the insurgents, fighting and involvement that only further undermined any chance at the Sunni trusting the new govt.

We, unfortunately, have had this same conversation seemingly dozens of times.
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Old 05-24-2017, 07:40 PM
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it's one of the few times American foreign policy has combined to be both moral and geopolitically correct. However poorly the aftermath was handled, that remains true.
It was an idiotic decision that destabilized an entire region and destroyed all the progress we had made in Afghanistan since we diverted all our resources to it...and it directly led to the issues we're having with ISIS now along with all the other issues we're having in that part of the world.
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Old 05-24-2017, 08:21 PM
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Dems may have just wrapped up one new seat in the House.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/re...rticle/2624100

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A reporter said he was body slammed by Republican candidate Greg Gianforte at an event for Montana's special House election.
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:22 PM
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Dems may have just wrapped up one new seat in the House.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/re...rticle/2624100
Watch him win anyway.

(Seriously though, couldn't the guy wait a couple more days to lose his shit like that? What an idiot.)
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Old 05-24-2017, 09:45 PM
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Watch him win anyway.

(Seriously though, couldn't the guy wait a couple more days to lose his shit like that? What an idiot.)
He body slammed a member of the liberal media...if anything, that probably improves his chances in Montana.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:41 PM
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He body slammed a member of the liberal media...if anything, that probably improves his chances in Montana.
The Fox reporters on the scene just confirmed the reporter's account, which is in contradiction to Gianforte's account:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...-reporter.html

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Gianforte grabbed Jacobs by the neck with both hands and slammed him into the ground behind him. Faith, Keith and I watched in disbelief as Gianforte then began punching the man, as he moved on top the reporter and began yelling something to the effect of "I'm sick and tired of this!"

To be clear, at no point did any of us who witnessed this assault see Jacobs show any form of physical aggression toward Gianforte, who left the area after giving statements to local sheriff's deputies.
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Old 05-24-2017, 10:53 PM
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More Libtards spewing Fake News as usual.

Gianforte is a man's man and he doesn't take crap from the liberal media who are out to destroy him and all god-fearing patriots!

God Bless America!!!
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Old 05-25-2017, 01:12 AM
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On Gianforte, a few more interesting points:

1. Voters are getting robo-calls from Trump endorsing Gianforte today, but robocalls are illegal in Montana.

2. The Missoulian has rescinded its endorsement of Gianforte.

3. The Billings Gazette has also rescinded its endorsement.

4. The Helena Independent Record joins the chorus. (added on edit) That's all 3 major Montana newspapers.
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Last edited by Terez; 05-25-2017 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 05-25-2017, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
On Gianforte, a few more interesting points:

1. Voters are getting robo-calls from Trump endorsing Gianforte today, but robocalls are illegal in Montana.

2. The Missoulian has rescinded its endorsement of Gianforte.

3. The Billings Gazette has also rescinded its endorsement.

4. The Helena Independent Record joins the chorus. (added on edit) That's all 3 major Montana newspapers.
Nothing will come of the robocalls thing...typical last minute dirty trick that will have zero lasting impact regardless of the legality. Do we really think the Montana AG (Republican Tim Fox) is going to press for any sort of legal action there?

Nobody gives a crap about newspaper endorsements anymore. Hillary had approximately 7000 endorsements to Trump's 7 and he crushed her.

Beating up a reporter is not going to be seen as a negative by the average Montana republican or "Staunch independent who just always happens to vote republican"...and that is who will make up the majority of the voters in a special election.

Barring Presidential Election levels of voting here, Gianforte will cruise to victory. I have literally zero faith in anything negative changing any Republican voters mind at this point. They willingly elected a rapist as President...you think beating up a liberal reporter (reporters being about as popular as lawyers and child molesters with the GOP base) will matter?
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