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  #141  
Old 05-31-2010, 04:00 PM
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  #142  
Old 06-01-2010, 03:57 AM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
Swords are obsolete is definitely a rare opinion for a third ager. Anyone else who can make Taim a little less suspicious?

I only know of Sammael and we know why he wants shocklances.
For third agers in general, but for those who have an option, eg Asha'man, it is about a 40-60 split against swords. It might actually be higher because some of Logain's faction and the non-aligned asha'man aren't terribly enthusiastic about swords either.

The opinions of those third-agers who don't have an alternative to swords are irrelevant to the opinions of those who do have an alternative.
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  #143  
Old 06-07-2010, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by WH prologue
Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue-And-gold Dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Randís arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warderís deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

A very interesting description.

It would be really nice to find out about Taim. Finally. Its a far more interesting puzzle than asmodean.
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  #144  
Old 06-07-2010, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
For third agers in general, but for those who have an option, eg Asha'man, it is about a 40-60 split against swords.
I'm not sure where you got your poll from. Are there any WOs that despise swords? They can channel, and the society is similar to the BLers with its focus on fighting skills, but i don't recall even one of them who considers swords (spears here) as obsolete. And that's inspite of the WOs knowing the truth about the aiel past.
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  #145  
Old 06-07-2010, 07:00 AM
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It would be really nice to find out about Taim. Finally. Its a far more interesting puzzle than asmodean.
Could be the same puzzle, of course.
  #146  
Old 06-07-2010, 08:14 AM
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I'm not sure where you got your poll from.
That's a "guesstimate" based on Tovienne's assessment of the factions in the BT.

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Are there any WOs that despise swords?
Once again you miss the point.

Wise Ones forswear ALL weapons whether they can channel or not. They do not despise weapond in the hands of others, but weapons in the hands of Wise Ones are not going to happen.

Aes Sedai foreswear weapons for themselves and even foreswear using the OP as a weapon except as a last defense.

Pretty much all of the female channelers foreswear weapons and partcipation in combat except as a last defense.

The asha'man on the other hand is a group formed as a combat unit and only Taim's faction "despise" swords with an arrogant "I don't need a weapon because I AM a weapon" attitude.
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  #147  
Old 06-09-2010, 11:47 AM
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Wise Ones forswear ALL weapons whether they can channel or not. They do not despise weapond in the hands of others, but weapons in the hands of Wise Ones are not going to happen.

WOs use belt knives. AS can use a sword to kill same as everyone else, the three oaths don't prevent that. They don't, but they seem to have a healthy respect for swords. That's really far from Taim's attitude and it seems to be attitude based on knowledge since the same attitude tends to creep down to his toadies.

Not all WOs can channel. Senna, the WO who died protecting Rand probably tried to stand against a draghklar with a belt knife.


But Taim's attitude is far from all that. He had six swords at his ribs and continued taunting Bashere! Of course, it seems Demandred had a warding that prevented physical attacks like that to a large degree, but then I'd have to assume that Dem had been teaching Taim for some time to allow an attitude like that develop.

Or else I assume He's Taim .
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  #148  
Old 06-09-2010, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by TGH, Chapter 18, To the White Tower
"A sword?" the Amyrlin said. "I never thought swords were much use – even if you have the skill, child, there are always men who have as much, and a deal more strength – but if you want a sword ..." She held up her hand – Egwene gasped, and even Nynaeve's eyes bulged – and there was a sword in it. With blade and hilt of an odd bluish white, it looked somehow ... cold. "Made from the air, child, with Air. It's as good as most steel blades, better than most, but still not much use." The sword became a paring knife. There was no shrinking; it just was one thing, then the other. "This, now, is useful." The paring knife turned to mist, and the mist faded away. The Amyrlin put her empty hand back in her lap. "But either takes more effort than it is worth. Better, easier, simply to carry a good knife with you. You have to learn when to use your ability, as well as how, and when it's better to do things the way any other woman would. Let a blacksmith make knives for gutting fish. Use the One Power too often and too freely, and you can come to like it too much. That way lies danger. You begin to want more of it, and sooner or later you run the risk of drawing more than you've learned to handle. And that can burn you out like a guttered candle, or – "
This suggests that Siuan does not think all that highly of swords either, at least not for someone who can use the OP.
  #149  
Old 06-09-2010, 02:17 PM
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In the scene with Taim meeting Rand & Bashere I would put his lack of fear at all the swords pressing against him as confidence in his own abilities as opposed to anything else.

If the soliders did try to run him through they would either have to be ordered to do so or for one of them to over react something Taim was sure to spot.

All he has to do is embrace the source and there are any number of weaves that would deal with all the soldiers. A simple weave of air could cut off all their heads before they could react a bit like Cyndane did to the man she was talking to in WH when she felt the CK being used.

The only other channeler there was Rand and it would probably be safe to assume that Taim could kill the soliders before Rand could react and after that he can stage a figthing retreat.

Yes there were were Aiel and other soliders present but Taim was able to teach the Asha'man how to shield themselves from flying rocks shards, stopping a few arrows should be easy with the only real channenge being Rand.
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  #150  
Old 06-10-2010, 08:06 AM
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In the scene with Taim meeting Rand & Bashere I would put his lack of fear at all the swords pressing against him as confidence in his own abilities as opposed to anything else.

...only real channenge being Rand.

In LoC, Taim bluntly refused to let the ashaman raise the barrier against the Shaido despite Rand's order. He clearly knew his limits. Thats as far as the confidence goes. Its confidence in what he knows he can do. Not delusional arrogance. Therefore it stands to reason that he had the training and experience to withstand Rand + Bashere and his men.


Since he'd stood off Bashere and caddy before, he had grounds for such confidence. I might add though, that Taim apparently went into that meeting beleiving Rand to be the Dragon of the aol. At least in terms of strength if not skill as well.
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  #151  
Old 06-10-2010, 09:10 AM
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In LoC, Taim bluntly refused to let the ashaman raise the barrier against the Shaido despite Rand's order. He clearly knew his limits. Thats as far as the confidence goes. Its confidence in what he knows he can do. Not delusional arrogance. Therefore it stands to reason that he had the training and experience to withstand Rand + Bashere and his men.
Why does it have to be delusional arrogance? He could believe (and rightly so) that he was too big of a prize for Rand to have skewered. He ignored the swords because he knew no one would have the balls to order him killed before he saw Rand, and he knew Rand needed all the help he could get. While I do think that Taim is a bad guy, I don't think this rises to PROOF that he's a bad guy who's automatically receieved extra-marital training.
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  #152  
Old 06-10-2010, 03:48 PM
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. While I do think that Taim is a bad guy, I don't think this rises to PROOF that he's a bad guy who's automatically receieved extra-marital training.
Extra marital? As in outside marriage?

You talk of proof, but the only thing we've been given is evidence. Plenty of it. But you may be right still, if he's not trained he may simply have memories from the aol due to barrier degradation or something. Or maybe he's Ishy.
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  #153  
Old 06-10-2010, 05:47 PM
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Personally I think that Taim may have received some training from Ishamael but its by no means certain. Perhaps the Shadow only invited him in once he became leader of the Black Tower.

In any event the way I see his first meeting with Rand was confidence not arrogance. For a channeler of Taim's strenght who has some experience the only real danger he has to face is another channeler provided he is not caught off guard. He could have ripped the palace apart if he had wanted to unless Rand stopped him.

Granted Rand though that Taim would need his help to escape if the soldiers and Aiel tried to kill him but Rand is not beyond making mistakes and at that point Rand was still pretty mellow, and did not spend a lot of time wondering how he could use the power to kill ordinary soldiers.

Taim knows that he is too big a prize for any of Rand's people to turn away when he shows up so its safe enough to approach the guards. If they do try anything he can always defend himself.

Once he gets to Rand he clearly seemed to think that Rand would be strong but not as experienced as he was was. If it came to a fight between him and Rand the soliders and Aiel would not really be a problem. He would not even have to consentrate on dealing with any of the soliders beyond those with their swords pressing against him because we have seen when forsaken strength chanelers start battling each other unless you are forsaken strenght yourself you are likely dead meat simply from what the two channelers are throwing at each other.
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  #154  
Old 06-12-2010, 04:28 AM
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He would not even have to consentrate on dealing with any of the soliders beyond those with their swords pressing against him because we have seen when forsaken strength chanelers start battling each other unless you are forsaken strenght yourself you are likely dead meat simply from what the two channelers are throwing at each other.

I can agree with that as per Moiraine/Merean. But the crux is that confidence itself. Is it based on knowledge and ability? Or just swaggering? If knowledge, what did Taim know? As at this time, iirc, the forsaken were not sure if Rand was really LTT. If Taim knew he risked facing the LTT from the aol, and he was so certain he could take him and the aiel and anyone else there (there were rumors of an AS with Rand.


Or else he was pretty certain he had a smooth tongue as Casbamelon suggested.
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  #155  
Old 06-12-2010, 10:34 AM
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I don't see how Taim what ever his background could see facing Rand as the same as facing an AoL channeler. At that point none of the forsaken were aware of the LTT factor and they put down his success to luck and what ever tibits he could get from Asmodean. The general forsaken opinion seems to have been that Asmodean would reall suck as a teacher and was far from a dependable allie.

Taim had been channeling a number of years, enough to have a rough control over what he was doing. Maybe he did not know a lot of fancy weaves but given his success as a false dragon it seems clear that he knew how to look after himself.

If he has no shadow connections he probably figured he might be facing a man with a lot of military resources and one who was just as strong as him but a lot less experience. If he did have Shadow coaching his thinking may have been the same or at best he may have been briefed that Rand may know a few tricks but if Taim was that high up in the Shadow to get a briefing he should be high enough up to get taught a few tricks himself.
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  #156  
Old 06-12-2010, 11:36 AM
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I don't see how Taim what ever his background could see facing Rand as the same as facing an AoL channeler.
Rand is the dragon. And in the aol, the dragon was the strongest channeler.

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Originally Posted by E
At that point none of the forsaken were aware of the LTT factor and they put down his success to luck
No. Lanfear saw him as LT and so did the others who hated LT - Demandred and Sammael, and likely Ishy.

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if Taim was that high up in the Shadow to get a briefing he should be high enough up to get taught a few tricks himself.

Enough to make him take that kind of risk? Demandred is a gambler, but maybe Taim is too. And it is a risk for a man who has just escaped captivity.


I don't really see how he could have accomplished so much if he wasn't forsaken trained (at the very least) long before this.
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