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  #101  
Old 04-02-2010, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
They're also completely unskilled in fighting Shadowspawn. Which, when it comes down to it, might be the more important factor. And they most certainly will not supply the most channelers. There is no evidence showing that the Seanchan have 2000+ channelers, which is what Rand, or the non-Seanchan force, would ostensibly supply (based off the rough numbers we have of Black/White Tower occupancy rates)
.



The damane are better OP fighters. The attack on the WT made that clear. It might actually be better for the FoL if the SC damane faced off against the DF channelers rather than Rand's AS or ashaman. Alivia represented them well at the cleansing!


Quote:
And what if the Ever Victorious Army IS inferior? Bashere w/ Asha'man and 5000 men is clearly superior to 40,000 Seanchan with damane (yes, they had them at the end)
.

Not quite true. The SC now have Travelling. At least that should be a safe assumption.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
But Tylee WAS in charge.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
Sure, she and Perrin cooperated in planning and executing the attack, but when push came to shove, it was a Seanchan officer giving the commands.


Perrin had complete command of his forces. I don't remember seeing any SC giving orders to 2Rivers men. Even among Perrin's group, all the different parties work together while maintaining their individual separate command structures: ashaman separate from AS separate from WOs. Ghealdanin/Mayeners/aiel and 2Rivers archers all separate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
Merit CANNOT determine the situation here,

Not choosing the best chap for the job could and often is the easiest way to lose. Especially something as critical as TG. No I think they'll easily put merit over political all selfish considerations especially once they realize they've run out of time. "Death comes"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
because a.) neither side is perfectly aware of how good the officers on the other side are,

Its not so difficult to find out. You can tell a rookie on a chess board in a few moves, maybe even the first move.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
They can always sail back.


lol.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
Have you read the books? Honestly, have you? Rand's first comment is to the effect of "I want Elayne to have the throne of Andor and Cairhien." The second Elayne returns, the Aiel LEAVE. They're not kicked out, they voluntarily depart to a camp outside the city, where they sit before going off somewhere else (Tear, right?). Elayne even comments that crime has gone up because the Aiel were able to maintain order where her own soldiers were spread too thin
.


Quote:
Originally Posted by WH prologue snow
Taim rubbed his chin thoughtfully. "I understand you've taken down the Dragon
banners all over Caemlyn, Mistress
Elayne." There was amusement in his deep voice, if none in his eyes! Dyelin hissed
in fury at the slight to Elayne, but he ignored her. "The Saldaeans have withdrawn
to the Legion of the Dragon's camp, I hear, and soon the last of the Aiel will be in
camps outside the city, as well. What will he say when he learns?" There was no
doubt who he meant. "And after he's sent you a gift, too. From the south. I'll have
it delivered later."
"I will ally Andor with the Dragon Reborn in due course," she told him coldly, "but
Andor is not a conquered province, nor for him or anyone else." She made her hands
stay relaxed on the arms of the chair. Light, talking the Aiel and Saldaeans into
leaving had been her biggest achievement yet, and even with the flareup in crime...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozy
Hawkwing's empire would have survived intact if not for the machinations of Ishy
.


Same tricks that he's playing now, only magnified a thousand times. The forsaken have helped to build the walls between AS, between ajahs, and between Rand and AS, Rand and SC. Isn't it obvious what they want?
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  #102  
Old 04-02-2010, 07:32 PM
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greatwolf greatwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by Heinz View Post
And she sent word to them to apprehend Alviarin. They failed, however.

Yes but could she have achieved better coordiantion with the non blacks in the WT? Could Egwene have gotten better results? I freely admit that I like your assesment of Egwene's situation and the difficult decision she faced.

But however tough your exams were, 25% can hardly be called good grades, sorry. You're excusing Egwene on the basis of she did the best she could in the situation she found herself. Maybe even a little panic at not getting any of them.


But consider the repercussions: If she goes for even one of the BA, it could tip off the rest and Verin's life work would be wasted. Worse, the BA would be able to go into deeper hiding, and those that Verin did not get could escape detection totally.

Did Verin give a list of those she wasn't sure of? Those she was sure were not black? One could be as important as the other. And it was up to Egwene not to waste the information.

The loss of the entire 200 would have been a very serious blow for the shadow and a morale booster for the light. By itself, it is enough to secure for Egwene the amyrlin seat!


Egwene had a choice of waiting till after reunification of the WT or going for the BA before that. And she also had the option of involving Elaida or not.


Was it worth bringing Elaida on board? If verin was certain Elaida wasn't BA, why didn't she give her a list? Or the list?


Since the SC attack had already taken place, I think it would have been best for Egwene to use Travelling to nab as many of the BA in the WT as possible.


She made no provisions in her plans for errors. That she might not get all the BA in the rebel hall, because if she missed even one, then the plan's obviously finished. She would have needed something far more cautious and subtle.


With masking mirror of mist and Travelling, she could have turned the BA hunters into a potent force against the 200 BA women. How long would it take them to locate and capture the 200 working in twos or threes?

After that, you can root out those Verin missed by using the oath rod to reswear those remaining. And reswear carefully.


As Verin noted, some have been DFs before coming to the WT. Those aren't even BA. Nor are the forsaken. They could swear on the oath rod that they are not and have nevr been BA!
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  #103  
Old 04-03-2010, 01:55 AM
nameless nameless is offline
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[QUOTE=Ozymandias;92909]
Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post

There is no evidence showing that the Seanchan have 2000+ channelers, which is what Rand, or the non-Seanchan force, would ostensibly supply (based off the rough numbers we have of Black/White Tower occupancy rates).
Everyone always forgets the Wise Ones. Roughly 500 per clan by 11 clans means more than 5,000 Aiel women who can channel, plus a few hundred Kinswomen and the Sea Folk's Windfinder contingent, all of whom can channel and none of whom have sworn off creating weapons or killing with the Power.
  #104  
Old 04-03-2010, 01:06 PM
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greatwolf greatwolf is offline
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Originally Posted by nameless View Post
Everyone always forgets the Wise Ones. Roughly 500 per clan by 11 clans means more than 5,000 Aiel women who can channel, plus a few hundred Kinswomen and the Sea Folk's Windfinder contingent, all of whom can channel and none of whom have sworn off creating weapons or killing with the Power.

I didn't forget them, but since Rand and Tuon do not know of these people, I couldn't very well make arguements based on those figures. If Rand and Tuon were having disarmament talks however, they may feature because Tuon would bring up WOs channeling as part of Rand's forces. But for now, I don't see reminding him he may be a superior position already.


BTW, be careful not to delete part or all of the "QUOTE" tags when editing your post. You made it seem like that was my post when it was in fact Ozy's. You have toh!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz
Elayne wasn't used in this book. Perhaps in the next we'll find why she was not able to help

You don't know? She was busy in her bath at the time. You didn't miss all those hints about drought and the dry weather did you?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinz
Now, could she have acted differently? I think so. In my couple of read-throughs of the book now, I'm still not convinced she HAD to act at that moment with the Rebel Hall to remove the Black Sisters. At least from her point of view. Aside from Verin's book, nothing had changed from one day to the next. And since the Black would not necessarily know anything about Verin's secret journal that Egwene now posesses, there wouldn't be anything to say life would not go on as they'd planned. Why not wait until she had control of all Aes Sedai, THEN act? 50 out of 70 would then become about 140 out of 200

Essentially agreed. The way I read it, it seems Egwene panicked:


Quote:
Originally Posted by tgs
She glanced at the bed again.
"Yes," Egwene answered, covering the sound by scooting her stool back. So her allies didn't know that Verin was dead. That was good; the secret was still safe, for the moment
She may have been wondering how long she could keep it secret. Verin only managed it for 70years!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS
"Be careful where you tread. Be careful how you strike. I will leave it to you to decide if you want to try to get all of them at once, or if you want to take the most important ones separately in secret. Perhaps you will decide to watch and see if you can counter their plots. A good interrogation might yield light upon some of the questions I was not able to answer. So many decisions you must make, for one so young."

The options Verin considered did not include taking out the rebel BA only. It would have been much better and easier to make sheriam and alvi disappear first and then get the rest of the BA after. As leaders, the objective would be simply to get more information before striking at the rest.


And the strike needed to be simultaneous. With Travelling, that would have been very possible. It would enable them strike at the BA from all sides at once. While Egwene was revealing to the SAS hall, the Ba hunters in the WT should have been taking out whoever they could, starting with the Sitters that are BA.


And the time interval after the revelations in the hall was far too long. The elaborate cover Egwene devised gave the BA time. Suppose Arangar had been listening on the Hall with saidin? Or anyone else?


And why test for BA only knowing one of the forsaken (who isn't BA ) was walking the halls? Why did she not make sure there would be no loopholes in the wording? Even if she had little experience with twisting words, Suian was there to help her. Oh I forgot, she decided to stop talking to Suian. Shame!

When you put a child in charge, you get purity. But you also get errors all the time as they learn the ropes. Egwene, IMO, has only demonstrated she's a baby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tGS
The Blacks seemed more likely to choose someone they could manipulate to be Amyrlin, then install a Black Keeper to keep her in line
So Egwene was raised by the BA! with a keeper and other influential AS close to her to keep her in line. Wait, has she actually realized that?
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  #105  
Old 04-04-2010, 07:38 PM
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Ozymandias Ozymandias is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
.
The damane are better OP fighters. The attack on the WT made that clear. It might actually be better for the FoL if the SC damane faced off against the DF channelers rather than Rand's AS or ashaman. Alivia represented them well at the cleansing!
False. The best OP fighters we have are Asha'man, who have beaten just about every elite military there is; the Aiel at Dumai's Wells, and a large army with damane in Altara.

Quote:
Not quite true. The SC now have Travelling. At least that should be a safe assumption.
True. But the Asha'man have two or three advantages over damane. Firstly, they are independent operators, and don't need the sul'dam to point them (a problem if you sul'dam gets fried, no?). Secondly, they're stronger, as we know men are on average stronger than women.

The disadvantage, of course, is that a goodly number of them are DFs... though we have to assume a number of damane/sul'dam are as well.

Quote:
Perrin had complete command of his forces. I don't remember seeing any SC giving orders to 2Rivers men. Even among Perrin's group, all the different parties work together while maintaining their individual separate command structures: ashaman separate from AS separate from WOs. Ghealdanin/Mayeners/aiel and 2Rivers archers all separate.
Perrin was in the middle of the battle, running around looking for Faile. He wasn't giving any orders at all. What if 10.000 more Aiel had appeared? Its Tylee giving the orders. Just because you don't understand the concept that in battle, decisions are handed down from one person, who may or may not have advisors, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Quote:
Not choosing the best chap for the job could and often is the easiest way to lose. Especially something as critical as TG. No I think they'll easily put merit over political all selfish considerations especially once they realize they've run out of time. "Death comes"
So your theory here is that the people of Randland, great and small, will decide to give over their own ambitions for the altruistic advancement of all? Despite the fact that none of them have done so, even knowing TG is imminent? Don't be naive. A huge portion of the tension in this series is the idiocy and greed of those in power.

Look at the Tower. They didn't choose the best leader. They chose the most controllable leader. Same with the rebels, though they lucked into a good Amyrlin. Don't confuse your ideals of what people will do with that they've been doing for 8000 pages or so.

Quote:
Its not so difficult to find out. You can tell a rookie on a chess board in a few moves, maybe even the first move.
But given current political considerations, they'll never meet. Yes, the general Ituralde killed in the Prologue knows he was beaten by his better, but he's dead. Rand and Tuon can't agree on a policy of detente, much less alliance. Tuon is actively hurting Rand's forces, yet again proving the ridiculousness of your idealism. If they can't agree, it doesn't matter whos best, because they'll fight each other and not with each other. If they don't fight, how can they know?

Quote:
Same tricks that he's playing now, only magnified a thousand times. The forsaken have helped to build the walls between AS, between ajahs, and between Rand and AS, Rand and SC. Isn't it obvious what they wan
Yes... disunity. But in the aftermath of TG, there won't be any Chosen to interfere. Is that difficult to comprehend? If the Light loses, its a moot point. If they win, people are hardly gonna let Moridin & Co run around influencing things. They'll be dead or in hiding. Ishamael only managed to influence things in the other cases through a disguise, and by sending Trollocs. He can't be in disguise after and there will be no Trollocs. So how does he break up the Empire? With what machinations? You need to picture the situation after TG, not just move the present conditions forward a year or so.

Your discussing an ideal situation which has not, will not, and effectively cannot happen. Rand and Tuon CAN'T ally right now, because Mat isn't in the picture and they each think the future of humanity depends on the one submitting to the other.

The nobles and leaders of the various factions WON'T all of a sudden realizing what pricks they're being. They haven't yet and won't, ever.
  #106  
Old 06-13-2010, 10:45 AM
Charlz Guybon Charlz Guybon is offline
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
False. The best OP fighters we have are Asha'man, who have beaten just about every elite military there is; the Aiel at Dumai's Wells, and a large army with damane in Altara.



True. But the Asha'man have two or three advantages over damane. Firstly, they are independent operators, and don't need the sul'dam to point them (a problem if you sul'dam gets fried, no?). Secondly, they're stronger, as we know men are on average stronger than women.

The disadvantage, of course, is that a goodly number of them are DFs... though we have to assume a number of damane/sul'dam are as well.
Suroth said the few sul'dam were darkfriends.

The damane were handicapped in that fight because the sul'dam were unnerved by the one power weirdness caused by the Bowl. The asha'man seemed less bothered by it.
  #107  
Old 06-13-2010, 11:16 AM
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Personally, I think the reason why Egwene went for taking out all the BA immediately was because she got burned by delaying Moghienden's trial.

In retrospect I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea, with traveling rediscovered it would make it incredibly easy for any BA to escape once they knew she was on to them. In fact it was only like an hour between the culling in the rebel camp and the culling in the white tower.

So it was either one big swoop, which was guarenteed to catch about half of them, or pluck out the cells, which might have captured a majority of them, but it also might have given the majority time to flee. At least this way Egwene & the AS will have the comfort of knowing that every sister remaining *is not* BA.

Another thing to think about is that the BA still is not public knowledge. Getting rid of a bunch of sisters during the overthrow will make the covering up easier.

I think she made the right decision. Could she have captured more if she delayed? Possibly, but it wasn't worth the risk imo.
  #108  
Old 06-13-2010, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by knightofround View Post
Personally, I think the reason why Egwene went for taking out all the BA immediately was because she got burned by delaying Moghienden's trial.

In retrospect I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea, with traveling rediscovered it would make it incredibly easy for any BA to escape once they knew she was on to them. In fact it was only like an hour between the culling in the rebel camp and the culling in the white tower.

Actually it took about half a day or so. But I'm not certain I remember correctly. She didn't make much use of people who were certainly non BA.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Guybon
The damane were handicapped in that fight because the sul'dam were unnerved by the one power weirdness caused by the Bowl. The asha'man seemed less bothered by it
Thank you.


I've been rereading that fight and the odds were staggering. Fifty suldam/damane pairs against about three hundred AS right inside their home base! Shouldn't this raid go down in the record books somewhere?


E : found one of the quotes I wanted

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
Each of the Black Ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack. But most had escaped before Egwene arrived at the Tower to take her seat...

...What had tipped them off? Unfortunately, it had probably something to do with Egwene seizing the Black Ajah in the rebel camp. She had worried about overplaying her hand. But what else should she have done? Her only hope had been to seize every Black in the camp and hope that word didn't spread to the White Tower
How was she so sure she could get them all? With Travelling, even one woman escaping would put the fox in there.
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Last edited by greatwolf; 06-14-2010 at 11:47 AM.
 

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