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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Archived: General Wheel of Time Discussion - 05/2008 - 03/2012
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  #1  
Old 07-28-2010, 02:39 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default I'm sticking up for Fain

Wondering if there are any well written theories on Fain being responsible for the attack on the Manor.
  #2  
Old 07-28-2010, 04:45 PM
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This is on my list of theories to write. I'm not doing all the work so you can take credit for it.
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  #3  
Old 08-04-2010, 04:08 AM
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Moridin claims someone masquerading as Sammael ordered those likely trollocs(not certain I know, but that was not the point). In making that specific theory you need to prove Fain can masquerade as a forsaken, or disprove that the Trollocs Moridin was talking about were were not the Trollocs that attacked the manor.
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Old 08-04-2010, 04:49 AM
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It's not quite as cut and dry as all that... this has been debated before, and the possibilities that have been raised that I remember off the top of my head are
1: One of the Forsaken impersonated Sammael and ordered the attack. Cyndane and Demandred are the likeliest though Moridin and Aran'gar are the only ones who are definitely in the clear.
2: Fain, who has been seen creating ghostly images of recently deceased Darkfriend Asha'man in Far Madding, used his bizarre powers to raise Sammael's ghost and use it to order the Fades. Either Moridin was just guessing about the impostor having a genuine Chosen Mark or the ghost retained traces of the mark Sammael had in life.
3: Fain orchestrated a hoax using his pet Fades. There never was an impostor Sammael, but there were one or more Fades who Fain coerced into convinving the others that there were orders from Sammael to assemble an attack force.
4: Moridin was lying outright for one of any number of dastardly reasons.
  #5  
Old 08-07-2010, 06:12 AM
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Default Moridin did it!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
Wondering if there are any well written theories on Fain being responsible for the attack on the Manor.

If you mean the Manor in Tear, no...

as Moridin himself was behind that very attack.
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  #6  
Old 08-08-2010, 10:47 AM
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On my latest (backwards) reread, it seems to me that the most likely candidate for the Manor attack is Dem. Mostly because he's always been so keen to see Rand dead no matter what the orders against killing him may or may not be.
The big problem with Fain (and I'm sure others have pointed this out) is that he can't actual order and control Fades like Forsaken can. His "pet" Fades were ones he tortured and threatened into following him. Is there any conceivable way he could threaten enough Fades to move an army of 10s of thousands of Trollocs?
As for his ability to show "ghosts" of dead Asha'man, that's not exactly what he did. Presumably, the vision in WH was the same as what he did in TGH and all that was was a "time-loop trap" set for Rand that would have kept him stuck watching the same scene (an actual scene that really happened in the past not something conjured up or some created illusion) until he dropped over dead; had he not been able to break loose by reaching for the Power. Likewise, in WH he had an idea of what was happening and was able to break loose. Moreover, as far as we know, this "trick" of Fain's only works on Rand for some reason.
Dem seems the most likely to be sending Trollocs off (both in this instance and the random attack on the Seanchan) because he'd have the ability to do so and it fits with his persona as a general (these attacks and movements could all be part of a broader strategy).
  #7  
Old 08-08-2010, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by isamu237 View Post
The big problem with Fain (and I'm sure others have pointed this out) is that he can't actual order and control Fades like Forsaken can. His "pet" Fades were ones he tortured and threatened into following him. Is there any conceivable way he could threaten enough Fades to move an army of 10s of thousands of Trollocs?
Yes, lots of people have pointed this out. If you read nameless' post you will see the cliff notes version of the response.

Do you seriously think that the Forsaken give orders to their Fades individually? Because no. That's not even a little bit realistic.
  #8  
Old 08-09-2010, 11:04 AM
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I finished writing the theory. Yay. I think I did okay, but I got sick of revising it so it's probably not perfect. Tam will probably post it later today.
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  #9  
Old 08-11-2010, 12:56 AM
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I like the theory. Sound. I now hope that the confrontation with fain will occur in the ways. Would level the playing field in fains favor.
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Old 08-11-2010, 09:59 AM
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Love the theory! Glad to see it laid out with very enticing evidence. I think it's pretty clear Fain will be a major player in the endgame and though I have always thought of him as "wearing Samael as a skin suit"......him having an innate, mordeth-shadow-fused, power to control Shadowspawn is much more efficient

Very well done Terez, can't wait for part 2!
  #11  
Old 08-11-2010, 12:42 PM
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Yay, thanks! Most of part 2 is just more quotes showing how he stole Shadowspawn in the earlier books, but one cool part of part 2 is a timeline that proves Fain has been using the Ways.
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  #12  
Old 08-11-2010, 02:27 PM
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The Ways are really the only option for how he keeps popping up across vast distances without being able to channel. I thought at one point that perhaps he developed a skill similar to how the method Myrdraal travel through shadows, but it's completely unnecessary for a man who frightens away the black wind
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Old 08-11-2010, 03:38 PM
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Great job Terez. As others have said, very well laid out. For me the three key points are:

1) Fain's ability to control the Black Wind
2) Moridin's assumption that it was a Chosen
3) RJs use of the word 'seem'

I'll be on vacation tomorrow, but something tells me I'll find my way here to check out part two..
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2010, 09:04 PM
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The full theory is up on the home page now. Yay! Join the faction.
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  #15  
Old 08-16-2010, 02:37 PM
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Thanks for the 2nd half! The time-line is exactly what I wanted to see, makes it fairly clear he must be using the ways to navigate - keeping him just as predictably unpredictable as ever
  #16  
Old 08-18-2010, 03:53 PM
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Nice theory.

Here's Rand's comment on the attack, which is a bit leading I think.
"Plainly someone knew Ishamael's trick. Or that blue-eyed man in his head really could locate him."

Fain do know Ishamael's trick sort of. At least to Rand, Ishamael's trick is just somehow sniffing him out, and Fain literally knows how to do that.

Course, Ishamael's trick really is locating Rand through TAR, as all masters of TAR can do, iirc. So it could be part of a Forsaken plot as well. I don't think this more likely.
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