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  #21  
Old 08-14-2010, 04:33 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
as many have said, how can a man duplicate what the creator has done, i say he cant.
It is possible that the Creator has said explicity that he can:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 51, Against the Shadow
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.
Now, you could try to argue that Rand is not the Chosen One, but since Buffy hasn't appeared in the series, yet, I think that argument is difficult to maintain.
Or you could argue that sealing away the DO properly is not something that must be done. Once again, that is not going to be an easy argument to make.
  #22  
Old 08-18-2010, 12:16 AM
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sorry my post wasnt very clear.

i meant Rand is going to be a surgeon, and use either both saidin and saidar to stitch the wound that is the bore back together or use the TP to do it. that way nothing touches he is only touching the edges of the DO's prison.

Another poor analogy, there is hole in the side walk, LTT and the hundred companions made a patch with Saidin, and that touched to DO and that was bad news. Rand has to push the concrete around it into place.

that was worse then my first analogy...
  #23  
Old 08-18-2010, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by halo6819 View Post
i meant Rand is going to be a surgeon, and use either both saidin and saidar to stitch the wound that is the bore back together or use the TP to do it. that way nothing touches he is only touching the edges of the DO's prison.
Problem with such stitching is that it remains a weak spot, at least until it heals. We do not know how long that would take, of course. But until it is healed, the DO could be busy taking the stitching apart from the inside.

Think of the scene in Alien, where the monster comes out of the belly of a man. Having a surgeon stitch that wound closed, while the monster is tearing it open from the inside, would not be very effective.
  #24  
Old 08-18-2010, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Think of the scene in Alien, where the monster comes out of the belly of a man. Having a surgeon stitch that wound closed, while the monster is tearing it open from the inside, would not be very effective.
Now that, sir, is a brilliant analogy. 2 thumbs up.
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Last edited by Casabamelon; 04-04-2011 at 08:20 AM.
  #25  
Old 08-20-2010, 01:46 PM
4Alethinos 4Alethinos is offline
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I think that it safe to say that the DO has never been able to expand the Bore since it was first opened. We have the whole AoL experience to justify this. It is at this point that the analogy about Alien breaks down somewhat. I do agree that the DO would certainly do what he could to maintain the opening even if he cannot expand it. It is the Wheel of Time that is his object to destroy. The device that maintains the Pattern must be destroyed in order to completely free the DO.

It is clear that any closure of the Bore will always leave a weak spot in the Pattern. That is the Pattern of all cycles including the very first one. Any argument suggests otherwise is doomed to failure, IMO.

My opinion is that the TP is not necessary to close the Bore. The WoT was created by the creator and the Bore was opened by use of the OP. It is likely that it was a combination of Saidar and Saidin that brougnt this to pass even though Mierin was not present at the moment of the opening. This suggests the Rand is absolutly correct in believing that Callandor is vital to the closure of the Bore.

Rand's only use of the TP was via his link to Moridin/Ishamael and not any direct link to the DO. If, as I believe, Moridin will be destroyed, in soul at least, before Rand gets to the actual location of the Bore that any link to the TP by Rand will be lost. As I said earlier, I do not think it is necessary, either.
  #26  
Old 08-20-2010, 02:01 PM
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I think that it safe to say that the DO has never been able to expand the Bore since it was first opened. We have the whole AoL experience to justify this.
How do you account for the DO's increased (and increasing) ability to touch the world if the Bore has never been expanded beyond the original "drill-pipe" dimensions?
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  #27  
Old 08-20-2010, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
How do you account for the DO's increased (and increasing) ability to touch the world if the Bore has never been expanded beyond the original "drill-pipe" dimensions?
Hasn't that been explained as the seal on the Bore weakening as the focal points are destroyed?
  #28  
Old 08-20-2010, 04:08 PM
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Hasn't that been explained as the seal on the Bore weakening as the focal points are destroyed?
Not the increased touch on the world during the War of Power(AOL). 4A seems to be suggesting that the amount of access the DO has/had at any time since the Bore was made, is the same as He had at the moment it was made.
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  #29  
Old 08-20-2010, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 4Alethinos View Post
I think that it safe to say that the DO has never been able to expand the Bore since it was first opened. We have the whole AoL experience to justify this.
Could you give me the quote which justifies this justification?

To help you on your way, I'll give this one:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSaSG
Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?
That seems to suggest rather strongly that those who knew what they were talking about (LTT et al.) believed the Bore had actually grown, and was continuing to do so.
  #30  
Old 08-23-2010, 02:01 PM
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In TGS, Lews Therin not only says something must touch him, (Ch 22, The Last That Could Be Done, p.345 hardcover), he also says, "We touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap..." The 'True Power' would be ideal for this. Lews Therin also refers to the True Power as being one in the same with 'Him!' (the Dark One) (pg 354 hardcover, Ch. 22 again) "Oh Light," Lews Therin suddenly screamed. "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal!
It is HIM."

But what intrigues me is the opening the Dark One reaches through being called The Bore. From LOC, Chapter 27, Gifts Rand describes to Egwene how he travels: "I bore a hole."

Could the 'crack' in the Dark One's prison, a.k.a. the Bore, merely be a gateway, held open by the D.O.? Could the Patch be failing because it is a patch, when what they should have done was find a way to close the gateway? But then, Lanfear was supposed to be the one to make the bore, and Saidar gateways don't work that way. The True Power seems to be similar to Saidin, but I'm not sure she could have used that before the Bore was opened. I thought there was a suggestion of a male helping her, but I can't find the reference.

Anyway, if true, Rand and company wouldn't have to 'duplicate the work of the Creator', they'd just have to remove a gateway. It would certainly close a lot of, um, holes, so to speak, in current theories.

My theory about slaying the D.O.? Can't be done. Balance must be maintained for the Wheel to keep turning. The D.O. wants him to try, though, because trying might just break the Wheel.

Just my two copper...

Last edited by Zak; 08-23-2010 at 02:13 PM.
  #31  
Old 08-23-2010, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Zak View Post
In TGS, Lews Therin not only says something must touch him, (Ch 22, The Last That Could Be Done, p.345 hardcover), he also says, "We touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap..." The 'True Power' would be ideal for this.
What makes you think that? Aside from the fact that trying to channel the True Power at Shayol Ghul will burn you to a crisp, it seems illogical to try to close the gap with the Dark One himself. He needs to be shut away.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Rand using the True Power is a bad thing, and that he's going to have to fight the temptation to use it again in the future. The running theme so far is that Rand is rightly fearful of too much power. It wouldn't make sense thematically for him to destroy the Choedan Kal only to give in to the temptation of a power that is evil.
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  #32  
Old 08-23-2010, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
What makes you think that? Aside from the fact that trying to channel the True Power at Shayol Ghul will burn you to a crisp, it seems illogical to try to close the gap with the Dark One himself. He needs to be shut away.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Rand using the True Power is a bad thing, and that he's going to have to fight the temptation to use it again in the future. The running theme so far is that Rand is rightly fearful of too much power. It wouldn't make sense thematically for him to destroy the Choedan Kal only to give in to the temptation of a power that is evil.
I kind of agree with you, except for 2 points. Nothing says that Rand has to be the one to channel the True Power (weak, I know...). Also, Shayol Ghul is described as not being where the Bore is, just a place where a 'thinness' in the pattern lets them talk to the 'Great Lord'. Nothing says they have to be at Shayol Ghul to close the Bore.
  #33  
Old 08-23-2010, 09:51 PM
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That only really addresses one of the issues I raised, and I'm not sure it addresses that one either. But to be honest, there are a lot of questions involved in how the Bore will be sealed, and I'm not really in a hurry to ask those questions as it doesn't seem likely to come up in TOM, and we will probably be given another clue or two in that book.

Of course, it could be that Rand really needs to use the True Power, and that's the only reason why the Pattern decided he needed to be linked with Moridin. But the destruction of the Choedan Kal seems to speak against it...or more specifically, Brandon's comments on it, and RJ's previous comments on why Rand left Callandor and the Choedan Kal behind until book 8. Incidentally, he went for both after he became linked with Moridin at the end of book 7, and his push to Ebou Dar might be among the first signs of Moridin creeping in.

I'm thinking that Rand needs to sever that link with Moridin for him to have a chance at victory, and that his death will be required. Which would of course also sever his access to the True Power...but more importantly, I think, it will sever the direct connection to the Dark One.

As for why he needed to be linked to Moridin...I'm guessing it's a matter of balance. It's required that the Chosen One make the sacrifice...he must stay alive until it is time for him to die, and he must overcome all obstacles in the way of his fated death, and the Moridin link is the biggest of those obstacles I think. He has to fight the influence that Moridin's mind is having on his own psyche, as he did on Dragonmount, but in the end, it is that link that will make it necessary for Rand to die. I think that he will understand that before he dies, or maybe as he's dying.

And of course, he would have to be brought back to life in that case, and I think that Slayer is evidence that Moridin has anticipated that as well.
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  #34  
Old 08-24-2010, 11:36 AM
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I agree with Terez that Rand HAS to die to have any chance at victory. Death is likely the only way to sever that link.
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  #35  
Old 08-27-2010, 10:18 AM
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I agree with Terez that Rand HAS to die to have any chance at victory. Death is likely the only way to sever that link.
Of course he has to die.. The Aelfinn (? Eelfinn) told him that "to live, you must die." That implies there is a way to live again, but that could just mean his next life. After all, if he fails, no one will have a next life.
  #36  
Old 09-04-2010, 05:13 PM
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Alternatively, couldn't Rand just go to the Foxes and say "Heal me and sever my link with the Dark One"? And then the Foxes kill him like they killed Mat and he's rescued by... someone? Just a thought.
  #37  
Old 09-05-2010, 03:34 AM
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Alternatively, couldn't Rand just go to the Foxes and say "Heal me and sever my link with the Dark One"? And then the Foxes kill him like they killed Mat and he's rescued by... someone? Just a thought.
Yeah, but Rand happened to be just at the right moment there, because he is such a strong ta'veren. That "someone" you mention would probably just be a little bit too late, which means that TG would then get a little bit messy.

Oh, and as an extra: someone sort of destroyed the door to the Foxes, making this solution just a little bit impossible.

But apart from those little bits: good idea.
  #38  
Old 09-15-2010, 12:06 PM
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From Weird Harold:

Quote:
Not the increased touch on the world during the War of Power(AOL). 4A seems to be suggesting that the amount of access the DO has/had at any time since the Bore was made, is the same as He had at the moment it was made.
The size of the Bore has not increased since it was made, IMO. However, what has changed is the battle between the DO and the Wheel that has impacted the Pattern. It is here that the DO has changed things and impacted the world which is supposed to be driven by the WoT and the resulting Pattern. This is why certain normal uses of preservation weaves are failing. It is why we see buildings being distorted by changes in the Pattern. This is because it is the Pattern that contains the form and shape of buildings and other such things.

The DO has increased his ability to subvert the Pattern and that is unquestionable. It is the DO's present ability to increase beyond what he had before the seals is what is in question. He is only now beginning to restore the impacts that must have been true just at the end of the War of Power.

As was said earlier, the DO is at war with the Wheel and not the Pattern per se.

BTW, I somewhat disagree with the idea that the Bore is a wound in the Pattern. It is a spreading of the threads and is not significantly different than what is accomplished by skimming. It is the Pattern that contains spatial coordinates and is why the Pattern is used by both saidin and saidar users to make gates. None of these are considered wounds in the Pattern. Neither is the Bore. The Bore just removed certain spatial and dimensional restrictions that are contained within the Pattern itself.

It is this spastiaol and dimensional imperatives that must be restored, IMO. It is important to note that what happened at the making of the Bore did not removed any threads of lives from the Pattern except those killed by the explosion that followed.

Will the DO attempt to resist this? Clearly, yes. However, the DO was not able to assist in the actual work done to make the Bore in the first place. He only took advantage of the opening to make himself known in a more present way other than sending little hints of power to such as Mierin who began the instigation for the whole project. That was all he could do at that time.

Just a few of my thoughts to make clear what I have been saying for a number of years now.

Last edited by 4Alethinos; 09-15-2010 at 12:11 PM.
 


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