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  #181  
Old 09-18-2010, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by JaconKin View Post
Most likely delivering more letters. Mat did notice a large stack of them.
Yes, but to whom did she give the letters to, and for what reason.
  #182  
Old 09-18-2010, 04:09 PM
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Well I would have to say that one of the most likely candidates would be Perrin and maybe even Elayne.
  #183  
Old 09-18-2010, 07:41 PM
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A signing report from Dragonmount:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
I talked personally to Brandon today (Sept 18) at a book signing at the Orem B&N.

I asked him 2 questions, both about “The Seven-Stripped Lass.” He “accused” me of working for DM or Theoryland, but said that I could report back to them on what he said. Sadly, I didn’t have a recording device with me, so his answers aren’t verbatim, but the words in quotations are the words that he used and the content is what I remember him saying. If there are mistakes they are probably mine, not his, as I am only human and cannot fully reproduce a spoken conversation word for word hours after the fact (despite the notes I jotted down).

1) Why did he choose to release Chapter 8?

He said it was strategic, because he knew that the Prologue would be up for sale, and chapters 1 and 2 would be up for free on Tor’s site. As well, chapters 3, 4 etc wouldn’t have worked “because they build upon each other. Chapter 1 builds on the Prologue, Chapter 2 on Chapter 1, etc.” And thus, chapter 8 was the earliest chapter that would work as a teaser without spoiling earlier things or getting in the way of the other early releases. He also confirmed that, yes, chapter 8 is the first Mat POV in the book.

2) I said something to the effect that many on the forums have challenged (I think the exact words I used were “giving him crap”) about the chronology, especially with regards to Mat. I guess it wasn’t a question as much as an interrogative lilt to my voice…

He responded by saying that he has a “detailed and precise” chronology off of which he works. He admitted however that he is not the real “chronology person” on Team Jordan, but those people assure him that “I am right on” with regards to the chronology. He then addressed a number of the concerns:
-first- Rumors: he said that rumors are just rumors. About trolloc attacks, specifically, he said that “trollocs have been attacking, or invading in various places for months” and that rumors abound in all sorts of forms about them.

With regard to the White Tower attack- I prompted this one a little, and he said that they are simply rumors which have coalesced from multiple rumors together, nothing related specifically to the real attack adding that “in the Wheel of Time rumors sometimes have a tendency to double-back on themselves” turning into truth eventually.

As for the horse riding in Caemlyn, I asked him specifically about Rand seeing Mat and Thom on horses in Caemlyn, but Mat in Chapter 8 not taking his horse into the city, and he responded by saying that Rand didn’t see Mat in this specific scene and assured me that all that would work out in the rest of the book.

He did admit that there has been one “hitch” found in TGS as per chronology that will be changed in upcoming editions. If I remember correctly he said Mat is roughly two weeks behind where he was meant to be and explained that Mat’s position in time at the end of TGS was supposed to be two weeks earlier than it was portrayed as being.
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  #184  
Old 09-18-2010, 08:37 PM
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I think that clears things up a bit. Good stuff terez. I'm still a little unclear on the last line though. Anyone care to pontificate?
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  #185  
Old 09-18-2010, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
With regard to the White Tower attack- I prompted this one a little, and he said that they are simply rumors which have coalesced from multiple rumors together, nothing related specifically to the real attack adding that “in the Wheel of Time rumors sometimes have a tendency to double-back on themselves” turning into truth eventually.

Seriously? He's going to maintain that the very accurate and detailed rumors of the Seanchan attacking the Tower with raken, and the Amyrlin using the Power as a weapon against them, and the White Tower subsequently reuniting are not rumors based on fact and merely coincidentally very accurately refer to something that hasn't happened yet but which we know is about to?
WTF?!?!!?

Doing that reduces some of the chronology problems, but at the cost of complete absurdity... If he wants to take that route, he needs to rewrite this chapter with different rumors. Or he needs to show that these rumors came from an Aes Sedai in Caemlyn who had a Foretelling!

Quote:
He did admit that there has been one “hitch” found in TGS as per chronology that will be changed in upcoming editions. If I remember correctly he said Mat is roughly two weeks behind where he was meant to be and explained that Mat’s position in time at the end of TGS was supposed to be two weeks earlier than it was portrayed as being.
This seems a rather strange admission given his earlier claim that he works off a 'detailed chronology' that is checked by team Jordan and deemed 'right on'. Either he is 'right on' and has rigorous processes to check chronology or he makes screw ups... you can't be both right in your chronology and screwed up at the same time.

At least he now admits that something is clearly wacko about Mat's timeline in tGS/ToM. Although pushing Mat's timeline even earlier only exacerbates certain chronology problems with the Seven-Striped-Lass chapter... but if he rewrites the absurdly accurate-in-advance rumors to be before-the-fact then that seems likely to provide some level of chronological consistency.

Last edited by Tercel; 09-18-2010 at 09:26 PM.
  #186  
Old 09-18-2010, 09:26 PM
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I don't find it to be all that unbelievable, so I'm not sure why you're freaking out. Even Mat had a good explanation for how those rumors might have started.
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  #187  
Old 09-18-2010, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I don't find it to be all that unbelievable, so I'm not sure why you're freaking out. Even Mat had a good explanation for how those rumors might have started.
Some people like to find fault...there's nothing you can do.

I'm guessing that Brandon and RJ's people have a better chronology than the one the fans have constructed...but thats just me.
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  #188  
Old 09-18-2010, 10:16 PM
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Can someone explain how the chronology is screwed-up? Is there anything wrong with assuming that the 30 day limit will expire in a few days?

Although, if Brandon is now saying that Mat was further back in time at the end of TGS than the fan time-line says he was, then that would create plenty of problems, because the opening of the sky seems to indicate that Chapter 8 takes place the same day that Rand went to the top of Dragonmount.

Last edited by alleluia_cone; 09-18-2010 at 10:26 PM.
  #189  
Old 09-18-2010, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Davian93 View Post
Some people like to find fault...there's nothing you can do.

I'm guessing that Brandon and RJ's people have a better chronology than the one the fans have constructed...but thats just me.
We don't need to find. Everyone knows that it's DT's fault...and ironically enough give who started this, we also know that it's Terez's fault that it's DT's fault. So there you go, we're now full circle! Whee!
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  #190  
Old 09-18-2010, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alleluia_cone View Post
Can someone explain how the chronology is screwed-up? Is there anything wrong with assuming that the 30 day limit will expire in a few days?
Mat says that he's got a few weeks to wait until he can be done with his obligation to Verin. She told him that he could either open the letter after 10 days and do what it said, or he could wait 30 days for her to return to Caemlyn to relieve him of it.

As for the clouds...dunno. Could be tied to Rand's babies perhaps? Because Rand certainly wasn't doing anything before Dragonmount that could have caused the effect in Caemlyn. Perhaps Elayne's victories count in his favor because of the babies.
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  #191  
Old 09-18-2010, 10:51 PM
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Default Heh - a bit too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel View Post

Seriously? He's going to maintain that the very accurate and detailed rumors of the Seanchan attacking the Tower with raken, and the Amyrlin using the Power as a weapon against them, and the White Tower subsequently reuniting are not rumors based on fact and merely coincidentally very accurately refer to something that hasn't happened yet but which we know is about to?
WTF?!?!!?
Very accurate? Just because we know what happens, rumors seem accurate. Mat is adding together a variety of rumors he has heard about the White Tower and likely adding a little bit of himself to them as he passes them on and where did you get this "amyrlin using the power as a weapon against them"? This is what I read.

“News?” Mat said. “No, I’ve heard no news. Rumors though . . . I’ve a brainful of those. Some say the White Tower has been reunified, which is what you’re probably talking about. But I’ve also heard just as many claiming that it is still at war. And that the Amyrlin fought the Last Battle in Rand’s place, and that the Aes Sedai have decided to raise an army of soldiers by giving birth to them, and that flying monsters attacked the White Tower. That last one is probably just stories of raken drifting up from the south. But I think the one about Aes Sedai raising an army of babies holds some water.”

Tower is unified, no it's still at war (makes sense). The Amyrlin fought the last battle in Rand's place (absurd). Aes Sedai are giving birth to raise soldiers (absurd) and flying monsters have attacked the White Tower (makes sense and likely a rumor that interested Mat...considering he's the bloody Prince and it is evident that it's a rumor that did interest him as he then had a very likely explanation for it which he liked to show off by explaining it to people). What is so bothersome? That the Seanchan did attack the White Tower with Raken? Surprise surprise...how else would they attack?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tercel View Post
At least he now admits that something is clearly wacko about Mat's timeline in tGS/ToM. Although pushing Mat's timeline even earlier only exacerbates certain chronology problems with the Seven-Striped-Lass chapter... but if he rewrites the absurdly accurate-in-advance rumors to be before-the-fact then that seems likely to provide some level of chronological consistency.
Well - this is something I'd like to understand better - and hear it verbatim. I'm not sure I understand what is being said by the reporter.

Last edited by Tamyrlin; 09-18-2010 at 11:06 PM.
  #192  
Old 09-18-2010, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Mat says that he's got a few weeks to wait until he can be done with his obligation to Verin.
Alright, my fault. I guess I didn't read carefully.

Now it makes sense for Mat to be a couple of weeks behind what was originally thought of as his time-line at the end of TGS.

Still, now it really does beg the question of whether the time-line is screwed up, because that would put Chapter 8 a couple of weeks short of Rand's epiphany in TGS.

Basically we have to dismiss the rumors as simply rumors (although they describe events that are going to happen) as well as the sky clearing up, which can't be because of Rand given the time-line discrepancy discussed above.

Last edited by alleluia_cone; 09-18-2010 at 11:53 PM.
  #193  
Old 09-19-2010, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
Well - this is something I'd like to understand better - and hear it verbatim. I'm not sure I understand what is being said by the reporter.
This means that something currently in TGS needed to be retconned to get the timeline to work and will be changed in future editions of TGS. Unfortunately, there wasn't time to get it changed in the paperback that's coming out this month. I'm guessing the change will affect only a sentence or two.

Retconning was a last resort that they really didn't want to have to take, but it was unavoidable.

Team Jordan has a very detailed chronology that looks in many respects similar to Steven Cooper's chronology, but Steven's is a bit off in a few areas. Certain beta readers helped verify it was nailed down.

[And Terez: It doesn't have to do with Sulin. Actually, they decided Sulin needed to be retconned earlier. You can find out in the paperback of TGS how that was worked out.]

Last edited by Peter Ahlstrom; 09-19-2010 at 01:19 AM.
  #194  
Old 09-19-2010, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Peter Ahlstrom View Post
[And Terez: It doesn't have to do with Sulin. Actually, they decided Sulin needed to be retconned earlier. You can find out in the paperback of TGS how that was worked out.]
Yeah, I think Brandon said they were just going to replace her with Nandera or something.
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  #195  
Old 09-19-2010, 01:24 AM
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Thanks for clearing that up Peter.
  #196  
Old 09-19-2010, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Tercel View Post
Or he needs to show that these rumors came from an Aes Sedai in Caemlyn who had a Foretelling!

Or better still, the DO messing up the timelines.
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  #197  
Old 09-19-2010, 05:30 AM
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The opening of the skies could also be the result of Elayne playing around with the weather. She's done that kind of thing before, remember?
  #198  
Old 09-19-2010, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Tercel View Post

Seriously? He's going to maintain that the very accurate and detailed rumors of the Seanchan attacking the Tower with raken, and the Amyrlin using the Power as a weapon against them, and the White Tower subsequently reuniting are not rumors based on fact and merely coincidentally very accurately refer to something that hasn't happened yet but which we know is about to?
WTF?!?!!?
You sound personally hurt by this..
  #199  
Old 09-19-2010, 07:24 AM
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You sound personally hurt by this..
I have to be honest, my initial reaction was a bit the same way -- thinking this'd be something Stephenie Meyer would say -- but then I took a few deep breaths and reread Brandon's answer. He never said whether the rumors Mat had heard were of events that had actually already happened or not. He only said that the timeline's not wrong (Mat has not been in Caemlyn for 30 days) and that rumors are just rumors. There could be something wrong with the Pattern much more severe than we've seen, which Brandon doesn't want to give away just yet. For example: peddlers may have witnessed events in TV on day X and left for Caemlyn on day X+1, but got to Caemlyn on day X-15.
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Old 09-19-2010, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davian93
I'm guessing that Brandon and RJ's people have a better chronology than the one the fans have constructed...but thats just me.
I don't doubt that they have a more-complete chronology. Not enough information is given in the books for fans to date every event precisely, and I assume team Jordan actually has a chronology containing exact dates for those events. But if a mistake is made by them, or by Brandon in writing scenes, then it could be potentially quite easy for fans to find two or three passages in the books, put them side by side and demonstrate a blatant contradiction. If one passage says event X takes place 30 days after Y and another passage has it taking place before Y, then it's obviously completely wrong, and saying team Jordan's chronology is better than fans ones is not relevant.

At the moment, lots of things seem funky with the date of Mat's timeline - us fans are seriously struggling to work it out because the data seems so contradictory that we are just not sure at all what is what. Apparently Brandon has located a chronology error in his writing of Mat in tGS, but ToM chapter 8 seems to be supplying a good deal of grief all on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alleluia_cone View Post
Is there anything wrong with assuming that the 30 day limit will expire in a few days?
Yes, in the Seven Striped Lass chapter, Mat thinks:
"All he had to do was wait a few weeks, and he would be free. He could wait that long. Really, he could."
There's a tiny bit of scope for Brandon to claim that the sentence is meant to be understood as "wait a few weeks [total]", but as written in its context it strongly implies (to me as a native English speaker with extremely good reading comprehension) "wait a few weeks [more]". (I wouldn't have mentioned this implausible alternate reading except that Brandon has already hedged on the rumor-evidence)
Weeks in the WoT world are ten days long. A few weeks, being three weeks, is therefore at least more than two weeks (20 days) and less than than four weeks (40 days). Verin and Mat's agreement specified 30 days, and hence Mat's thought of having to wait a few weeks more before the agreement expires implies that at least 21 days remain of the period. He has been in Caemlyn at least 3 days because Thom mentions an attack on him leaving the city 3 days earlier. Hence Mat's time so far in Caemlyn as of ToM chapter 8 is 3-9 days, with 21-27 days outstanding on his agreement with Verin.

Quote:
the opening of the sky seems to indicate that Chapter 8 takes place the same day that Rand went to the top of Dragonmount.
Actually, I think this is not a problem at all because we have never had any evidence to suggest Caemlyn suffered from the perpetual cloudiness. Cloudy areas noted in character PoVs include Tar Valon, Arad Doman, Malden, and Murandy. No character in Caemlyn ever noted perpetual cloudiness, with all scenes there and in Ebou Dar (under the Seanchan) indicating an absence of cloud in those areas. Either we didn't have a PoV in Caemlyn during the perpetual cloud, or Caemlyn was free of it like Ebou Dar was. One presumes that the perpetual cloud was related to Rand's mood and hence influenced only geographical areas strongly related to him - although one is then pressed to explain the presence of cloud at Tar Valon and not Caemlyn.

So, in short, the clear sky in Caemlyn in the Seven Striped Lass is not necessarily chronologically indicative. In fact, I suspect it might be chronologically more accurate if the reason for it is that Caemlyn is not yet suffering from perpetual cloud in Mat's chapter. I suspect that more of the chronological contradictions would resolve themselves if Mat's time in Caemlyn is occurring before the overcast sky period even starts... because if it is occurring after Rand's enlightenment on Dragonmount then I suspect the chronology is truly screwed beyond fixing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin
Very accurate? Just because we know what happens, rumors seem accurate.
The rumors of raken attacking the Tower and the Amyrlin fighting the last battle both together I find to be implausibly coincidental if the Seanchan attack and Egwene's defense had not yet occurred.

Even Egwene who knew the Seanchan would attack the Tower, and knows a lot about Seanchan forces, did not even imagine the possibility of them using raken to strike. And her lack of imagination on this is entirely predictable because the Seanchan have never used such a tactic before. Their raken serve as scouts. This strike was the first of its kind. No one in the world would expect their raken scouts to attack anything. Equally, no one would expect the White Tower to be their next target, because it is miles and miles and miles from Seanchan controlled areas.

As a result, false rumors that the Seanchan had attacked Illian or Ghealdan (countries next to Seanchan zones) are most likely. False rumors that they attacked Shienar or Tar Valon (countries as far away from Seanchan zones as possible) are least likely. The Seanchan have a wide variety of forces that they use in battle that could make for great rumors - chained Aes Sedai, insect-like armor, Ogier Gardeners, Grolm, S'redit. But very few people ever see the raken (we've seen that armies being scouted by them often miss seeing them entirely - eg Whitecloaks in tGH). Raken don't take part in battles, so of all the weird and wonderful Seanchan army and battle rumors, ones about raken are least likely. In combination, the idea of raken attacking Tar Valon is -of all possible Seanchan related false-rumors- the least likely one to be invented.

But not only did this incredibly-unlikely-to-have started-by-itself rumor make Mat's rumor list, we also have one that says the Amyrlin fought the last battle. That is easily recognizable as a straight-forward corruption of the truth that Egwene fought the Seanchan. The corruption is very easily explainable given that people present at the time (eg Nicola) were initially absolutely convinced it was the Last Battle they were in. So if rumor based on truth spread from that event, the slightly corrupt form that the Amyrlin fought the last battle is highly highly likely. But, on the other hand it is a pretty wacky rumor for someone to just make up randomly. When the Amyrlin hadn't done anything at all for a long long time and nothing much exciting had happened that could be called the 'last battle' then why would rumors that the Amyrlin had fought the last battle start floating about? Again, it is a combination of two highly unlikely initial false-rumors.

Finally, there is the rumor of the united White Tower. Of course, ever since the Tower split, rumors of its reunification have probably been circulating. However, when the rebels actively began their siege of Tar Valon, it would have become clear to the world that the White Tower was split, and rumors of reunification would have diminished by an order of magnitude, with confirmation of the Tower split being the more common rumor. Mat's report of the rumors seems to imply that the Tower unity rumor is now more common than the tower-still-divided rumor and that this is somewhat new. The actual reunification of the Tower under Egwene is really the only thing likely to have caused this rumor to become common.

The rumor of Aes Sedai giving birth to soldiers can be simply discarded as completely and utterly absurd in all ways as Mat notes (perhaps it simply reflects the large number of soldiers in the Aes Sedai armies), and the rumor that the Tower is divided would inevitably continue to circulate for a while even after reunification so that rumor's existence is a certainty. So, of the five rumors Mat lists, only three in the list have non-trivial information content.

In sum, the three rumors containing any meaningful information contain five individual points of information content, all five of which are unlikely things for people to make up. Of those five points, we know four and a half of them are accurate (or will come true shortly). That is incredible accuracy for rumors. Continually in the series it has been driven home to us how inaccurate after-the-fact rumors are. Here we have five information points, whose initial likelihoods range from low to almost infinitesimal and not only are the majority correct they are virtual all virtually completely correct to a level of accuracy seldom ever achieved by after the fact rumors. An explanation for such an unprecedented level of accuracy is called for. The proximity of Caemlyn to Tar Valon and/or Aes Sedai Traveling would provide such an explanation. But if these rumors are not after-the-fact but before-the-fact then the improbabilities involved are just truly absurd. Even Mat wouldn't bet on those odds. If I tried to type out the probability of it, my keyboard would run out of zeros. Nothing short of Mat's Ta'veren nature or an Aes Sedai having the foretelling (or Brandon screwing up) can explain Mat getting rumors that accurate and unlikely before the events occur.

Actually, now I think about it, I'm happy with the idea that the Wheel, via Mat's Ta'veren nature, deliberately provided Mat with ridiculously unlikely soon-to-be-accurate rumors in advance to provide him with information necessary for him to achieve his fated destiny. That is a plausibly-plot-related miracle that could explain these ridiculous improbabilities. In short, I do reaffirm that I feel a miraculous explanation is required for this level of statistically unlikely accuracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluedust
You sound personally hurt by this..
I am. For fifteen years I have loved the Wheel of Time series, and have spent many many hours reading and rereading it and discussing it online. I am emotionally invested in seeing the last books live up to that standard and for the series to come to a satisfying conclusions. I am completely horrified at the thought that the last books might be written in such a careless manner and be full of basic mistakes. I really loved tGS on the whole, but Sulin being in the wrong place caused a "What? Seriously? Are you even trying for accuracy? Did anyone who knows anything even bother to proof-read?" moment of disappointment and doubt. And here in ToM chapter 8, I loved Mat's character development, but again I had a "Huh? Have you even looked at a timeline?" moment of disappointment and doubt. And the claim that the rumors were that accurate in advance of events (pending a yet-to-be-supplied miracle) merits simply a "now you're being totally ridiculous and not even trying at all in any way whatsoever".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Man
There could be something wrong with the Pattern much more severe than we've seen, which Brandon doesn't want to give away just yet. For example: peddlers may have witnessed events in TV on day X and left for Caemlyn on day X+1, but got to Caemlyn on day X-15.
I like this idea. We've seen time-loops already. Perhaps there's a time rift somewhere so Mat is getting accurate rumors from the future. That would be cool.
Note to Brandon: It would not however be cool to now invent a massive time rift right across the world as an after-the-fact explanation for all chronological mistakes made in the series. That would be cheating I feel.

Last edited by Tercel; 09-19-2010 at 07:49 AM.
 


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