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  #1  
Old 10-29-2010, 01:33 AM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Resting After a Long Run

Ok - hands down one of my favorite parts of the book is Aviendha, especially her meeting with a woman named Nakomi. I'm planning on writing a detailed theory on her identity. My main suspect is one of the Wise Ones, likely Amys.

The gist of my theory is - the Wise Ones have been tracking Aviendha for a long time. They didn't want her to leave the Waste way back in TDR because they knew she was important from their ability to read Dreams. Their plans for the survival of the Aiel are set with Aviendha and they knew they needed to intervene while she was on her way back to Rhuidean in such a way that she would be prepared to walk through the columns. They knew they would have an opportunity to enter her dream and control it (or some other TAR/Dreamwalking means) to influence her. Likely they were waiting in TAR for her to fall asleep as they knew she would and immediately acted. This plays well with the repeated themes from The Shadow Rising. (Yes, I believe what we see is happening in TAR).

Although, I know Terez has her own suspect and there are some other possibilities. One thought is a Bubble of Good. Another is a Forsaken. Another idea would be a Mirror World intrusion. Another would be a Pattern Level Event (another words orchestrated by the Wheel.)

Last edited by Tamyrlin; 10-29-2010 at 01:35 AM.
  #2  
Old 10-29-2010, 01:39 AM
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It was Verin, duh.
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  #3  
Old 10-29-2010, 01:44 AM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default Hehe - I do like the idea, but...

How would Verin have found Aviendha? I like the idea, but was she following her waiting for her to stop? Does she have something Verin gave her like the coins Moiraine gave to the boys?

And then, how did Verin come to this understanding that she needed to talk to Aviendha in this way? I understand Aviendha would immediately be prepared to ignore a wetlander, but that doesn't explain what Nakomi tells Aviendha. There is purpose there and that purpose seems to have a lot to do with Aviendha's second walk through the columns. Did Verin know what would happen in Rhuidean? And if so, how?
  #4  
Old 10-29-2010, 01:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
How would Verin have found Aviendha?
How did she know Rand was going to show up at the Tower?

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Originally Posted by Tam
And then, how did Verin come to this understanding that she needed to talk to Aviendha in this way? I understand Aviendha would immediately be prepared to ignore a wetlander, but that doesn't explain what Nakomi tells Aviendha. There is purpose there and that purpose seems to have a lot to do with Aviendha's second walk through the columns. Did Verin know what would happen in Rhuidean? And if so, how?
I think she understood a great deal about the Aiel from her interactions with them, especially when she was questioning the 'apprentices'. Which, by the way, is another thing that makes me think it's Verin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ/BWS
TITLE - Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 39 - In the Three-fold Land

"You seem troubled," Nakomi said. "Far be it for me to question an apprentice Wise One. But I do see worry in your eyes."

...

"I'm sorry," Nakomi said. "I've let myself ramble again. I am prone to it, I fear. Here, let us eat."
She also referred to Rand as the Dragon, the one 'called' the Car'a'carn, and other things that hinted to her not actually being Aiel. Verin has had an interest in them since TGH. And I doubt Aviendha escaped her notice. Few things did.
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2010, 01:57 AM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default True

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
How did she know Rand was going to show up at the Tower?
That's a good question. How did she know? She didn't seem to have any information on Egwene until she got to the Tower and figured out that Egwene was different. Additionally, she had a hard time pinning Mat down. Leaving a letter for Rand when he showed up seems less surprising than finding Aviendha in the late evening on her way to Rhuidean. But I'll bite on the idea that she could have been waiting, knowing the approach she would take, and spotted her....and then got lucky that Aviendha stopped to rest.

I'd like it if it were Verin, but I need more evidence that Verin ever had interest in Aviendha. She is leaving everyone else letters, but this approach is radically different.
  #6  
Old 10-29-2010, 02:40 AM
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Because there's no way in hell that Aviendha would listen to a wetlander about the future of the Aiel. It required a radically different approach.

As to how she knew...I'm assuming Sorilea had something to do with it. And of course the Shadow always knew her relationship with Rand, since Lanfear learned, at the latest. But Sorilea has probably known for a while.
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  #7  
Old 10-29-2010, 09:37 AM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default I agree Aviendha wouldn't have listened to a wetlander

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Because there's no way in hell that Aviendha would listen to a wetlander about the future of the Aiel. It required a radically different approach.

As to how she knew...I'm assuming Sorilea had something to do with it. And of course the Shadow always knew her relationship with Rand, since Lanfear learned, at the latest. But Sorilea has probably known for a while.
And if you mix Sorilea in...sure, a Wise One mix gives it more credence, but considering all the Wise Ones had to do early on with Aviendha in TDR, TSR, TFoH...you don't think their meddling is more likely?

I think it will be them or Verin...now I just need to develop it. These will be fun ones to get out into the open.
  #8  
Old 10-29-2010, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
And if you mix Sorilea in...sure, a Wise One mix gives it more credence, but considering all the Wise Ones had to do early on with Aviendha in TDR, TSR, TFoH...you don't think their meddling is more likely?
Not at all; I think they would be more likely to be straightforward with her. Why should they hide their opinions? And Nakomi doesn't speak like she is Aiel - that's another strong point for Verin.
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  #9  
Old 10-29-2010, 03:59 PM
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I don't know . . .

It is plausible but from a thematic point of view I'm a bit confused.

This conversation is almost completely about what to do with the Aiel AFTER the Last Battle. The theme is developed later on in Avi's chapters as she sees that the Aiel's conflict with the Seanchan and their war-like nature eventually lead to their race's fall and extinction.

The question is a deeply personal one that is uniquely Aiel.

I did not get the impression from reading any of Verin's viewpoints that she had THAT big a stake in the Aiel ESPECIALLY after the Last Battle. Most of her attention I had thought was in toppling the Shadow, the Black Ajah, helping Rand win the Last Battle etc.

How does making Aviendha think about the role of the Aiel AFTER the Last Battle fit in with this?

I also don't see it as being ANY of the Aiel or the Wise Ones specifically. Disguising yourself in this manner is something that is just not done in ji'e'toh and I can't see any Wise One stooping to that type of base trickery.

Besides, Avi is an apprentice Wise One on her way to Rhuidean for a holy ritual. It would be anathema to interfere like that.

I don't have a better theory than Terez, but would be significantly confused why Verin would do this . . .

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  #10  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:01 PM
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I believe that Verin not only knows the Aiel better than most wetlanders, but she also probably knows the Shadow's plans for them. She would have a lot of reason to do what she did. I will look for some more direct foreshadowing; I'm sure I can find some.
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  #11  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:04 PM
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Default I disagree - they will do what's necessary to save their people

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Originally Posted by dfchang813 View Post

I also don't see it as being ANY of the Aiel or the Wise Ones specifically. Disguising yourself in this manner is something that is just not done in ji'e'toh and I can't see any Wise One stooping to that type of base trickery.

Besides, Avi is an apprentice Wise One on her way to Rhuidean for a holy ritual. It would be anathema to interfere like that.

Dennis
They will do what's necessary from what they read in the dreams. They will meddle as much as is required to save as large a remnant of their people as they can. But I'll wait for the theory to prove that out.
  #12  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:05 PM
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It won't; this will be on the 'unrevealed' list. We'll never know for sure.
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  #13  
Old 10-29-2010, 04:26 PM
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Default That's possible

I will go back looking for more clues in TDR, TSR and TFoH for more proofs, but it may be that it is never revealed...which is fun too.
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:28 PM
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Boy that might drive me more crazy than Asmodean's killer.

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  #15  
Old 10-29-2010, 05:17 PM
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Boy that might drive me more crazy than Asmodean's killer.

Dennis
I was never too worked up about Asmodean, but this would probably ruin me, especially if there were no outriggers.
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I believe that Verin not only knows the Aiel better than most wetlanders, but she also probably knows the Shadow's plans for them. She would have a lot of reason to do what she did. I will look for some more direct foreshadowing; I'm sure I can find some.
Did the Shadow have any plans for them? At least the Forsaken was surprised at how much they had changed from what they used to be.

And if the Dark One wins obviously there are no plans for anybody after that.

Again, this chapter is about what to do with the Aiel in the event they actually WIN the Last Battle.

This is critically important only if you were privy to the information that Aviendha got because she used her Talent.

Another thought: What if Aviendha changed the function of the glass columns PERMANENTLY so all future Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs went through what she went through? That would be pretty powerful motivation to change if they could all see that.

Last I read, almost all the leadership of the Aiel both Wise Ones and clan chiefs were for wiping the Seanchan off the face of the earth as soon as the Last Battle was done.

I think that is part of the sentiment that inevitably leads to their destruction and needs to be somehow changed.

This of course doesn't change the fact that I happen to AGREE with the Aiel about the Seanchan.

Dennis
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:47 PM
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Default Ok, this is a new low for me...

I'm now going to theorize without reading the book, and on the basis of a few snippets... Am I a WoT junkie or what? :P

So, as I see it, there's someone who interrupts Avi's run to Rhuidean and makes her think about the Aiel's future. I'm assuming the timeline fits enough for this to be Verin.

Now, I'd like to know from someone how she's described. Any clues there?

Because I have an idea... what if this woman is Lanfear? We know she had Aiel attached to her (Rand's ancestor). She has lived among the Aiel for some time as a peddler. She also personally knows Aviendha, and maybe through spying on the Aiel's dreams, knows how important the WO regard her to be.

Now, there are some hints that Lanfear is rather more involved with the story than as a mere slave of Moridin's. There's a possibility he used to love her. There's a chance she may want to turn back. There's a chance she's part of a trap for Rand. We don't know. What we do know is, Moridin has some plans for her, and she may still have her own plans.

Whatever be the case, the interference of this Nakomi woman ensured that Avi used the glass columns differently. Given the instability in the Pattern, and what RJ said about prophesies and viewings at this time, what she sees may not even be true. What if Lanfear was able, to an extent, to figure out what Aviendha would see and then drove her to see it so that her future actions will be informed by these viewings? What if this is Moridin's plan to screw with the Aiel, or else maybe Cyndane actually helping them so that they don't get destroyed?

It is completely crazy, I know. But is there anything that conclusively disproves it?
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Old 10-29-2010, 11:47 PM
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Wow, ok.

That is crazy.

I don't know. Okay, first let me give you Nakomi's description:

Wears Aiel garb. Not cadin'sor or Wise One garb, just normal clothing. Dark skirt and tan blouse and shawl. Kerchief in greying hair.

Middle aged and carried no weapon.

Furrowed skin and can not channel.

Aviendha doesn't really want her around nor does she really want to share food or water since she is in the middle of the Waste but can't really turn her away. They have a conversation about the Aiel and their future after the Last Battle.

Aviendha thinks they will return to the Three Fold Land after the Last Battle because the wetlands are too "soft" but in the classic Socratic method, Nakomi makes her question this. She suggests that there would be no point afterwards. They would be growing harder for the sake of growing hard.

While doing this, she makes one of the most delicious meals Aviendha has ever eaten. Then she apologizes for making Aviendha feel weird and makes an excuse to leave to use the bathroom. She vanishes without a trace.

So if it is a channeler, she would have to hide her strength as Aviendha can't sense her at all.

As for Lanfear's involvement in this? It's hard to swallow. The advice given to Aviendha is VERY GOOD, something she and all the Wise Ones need to hear, it's something we the reader might tell them. I see absolutely no reason for Lanfear to do this.

Furthermore, from the end of the book, we know Lanfear is getting crushed night in and night out and really doesn't seem to be in the proper frame of mind for any clandestine missions to give helpful advice to the enemy.

Also, can't imagine you can even pass wind in a mindtrap without permission.

Meaning Moridin would have to approve of this plan which makes even less sense as he is the Forsaken absolutely most focused and engaged in having the Dark One WIN the Last Battle which means there is literally nothing afterwards making the Aiel's future completely moot.

Dennis
  #19  
Old 10-29-2010, 11:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
They will do what's necessary from what they read in the dreams. They will meddle as much as is required to save as large a remnant of their people as they can. But I'll wait for the theory to prove that out.
Hmmmm, no, I don't think they would break ji'e'toh like this. They would just tell Aviendha straight up. Why bother with this charade?

Unless the dream demanded this? Which would be pretty darn contrived don't you think?

I am 99% sure this is not an Aiel at all.

Who else it could be is anyone's guess.

Verin maybe but again she is THAT much of a busybody? And how did she even FIND Aviendha while simultaneously giving out letters to all these people . . . I don't know if logistically or thematically it makes sense for her to do this.

It HAS to be someone who has a vested interest in the Aiel's future, who cares about them, and it has to be someone who is NOT Aiel so he/she can provide the invaluable perspective of an outsider.

I just don't know.

Dennis
  #20  
Old 10-30-2010, 12:27 AM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default I don't think it would be contrived at all

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Originally Posted by dfchang813 View Post
Hmmmm, no, I don't think they would break ji'e'toh like this. They would just tell Aviendha straight up. Why bother with this charade?

Unless the dream demanded this? Which would be pretty darn contrived don't you think?

I am 99% sure this is not an Aiel at all.

Who else it could be is anyone's guess.

Verin maybe but again she is THAT much of a busybody? And how did she even FIND Aviendha while simultaneously giving out letters to all these people . . . I don't know if logistically or thematically it makes sense for her to do this.

It HAS to be someone who has a vested interest in the Aiel's future, who cares about them, and it has to be someone who is NOT Aiel so he/she can provide the invaluable perspective of an outsider.

I just don't know.

Dennis
First, I think the Wise Ones are wise. Second, we have seen a mysterious lack of the results of dreamwalking compared to what we saw regarding Aviendha's future in TDR and TSR. Third, Aviendha's decisions have obvious import to the Aiel and to the Wise Ones and they are very very invested in Aviendha. It is highly likely they read that she would go to Rhuidean and come back to them unchanged, and without that change the Aiel would be destroyed. And what we are now seeing is a product of how they believed she needed to be approached to get the results they needed to save their people.

Of course, their dreamwalking demanded it - they are dreamwalkers and from what we experienced in TDR and TSR, they are quite good and powerful. I can't imagine they were not involved in something so key regarding the remnant of a remnant of their people. In fact, I'm quite sure the Aiel Wise Ones are the most knowledgeable about this entire event (Last Battle and the Aiel) outside of the Wheel and the Dark One. Considering all of the other harmony written into this Pattern, this would resonate quite well from everything we've seen up to this point.

A final thought - I wouldn't be surprised if this was part of an apprentices trip to Rhuidean, to be approached in such a way as to question their purpose and prepare them to become a Wise One. Everything said there feels practiced, prepared and poignant, meant to make the apprentice consider the Aiel's place in the world. But that's not necessary, just a thought.

Everyone else that can be picked will have to feel contrived because motivation is missing and opportunity will have to be crafted. The Wise Ones have motivation, opportunity and means all built into the books.

Although, I think Lanfear and Verin are fun to play with as it is clear to me what happens here happens in a dream. I wouldn't be surprised by either, but certainly the Wise Ones are one of a handful of choices.

Last edited by Tamyrlin; 10-30-2010 at 12:29 AM.
 


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