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  #21  
Old 11-11-2010, 07:54 AM
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I don't think the DO can be killed but I think its possible that Rand will find a way to seal him up so completely that he can't be found again. Bit of a stretch I guess.
Seal him better than the Creator did originally? I doubt it.
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  #22  
Old 11-11-2010, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Seal him better than the Creator did originally? I doubt it.
Oh, I dunno. Doing better then One that created Egwene can't be all that hard, now can it?
Ducks out, hoping to be away before people realise this is yet another "Egwene bashing".
  #23  
Old 11-11-2010, 10:59 AM
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I think the problem with this theory is magnitude.

A small piece of the dark one (the taint) destroyed an entire city of mashadar. Do you really think Fain has enough mashadar in him to cancel out the Dark One? Keep in mind that he obviously left the bulk of it in Shadar Logoth or the cleansing wouldn't have worked.

That said, I do think there is a way to kill the Dark One.

However, my theory ended up becoming the novel "Mistborn: Hero of Ages." So, I guess it's already been used up and WOT has to do something different.
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  #24  
Old 11-11-2010, 11:56 AM
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I think the problem with this theory is magnitude.

A small piece of the dark one (the taint) destroyed an entire city of mashadar. Do you really think Fain has enough mashadar in him to cancel out the Dark One? Keep in mind that he obviously left the bulk of it in Shadar Logoth or the cleansing wouldn't have worked.
I don't think that is a problem. The taint wasn't small, it had infected all of Saidin, half of the One Power that filled the world. Rand had directed a river of the taint at Shadar Logoth for hours and the city kept absorbing it and swelling.

There isn't a limiting factor for mashadar now that they are free of the city. They can keep spreading with every infection by Fain and his dagger. If you look at Rand's wound, a small cut by Fain is fighting the larger injury by Ishamael.
  #25  
Old 11-11-2010, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by One Armed Gimp View Post
Without the DO history can not repeat itself. It makes major changes to the Pattern itself and we know that the Pattern does not handle major changes well...

All that aside, belief that Rand will destroy the DO goes against RJ's comments that there is nothing special about this turning of the wheel. I think the destruction of the DO would count.
I agree that Rand will (probably) not actually destroy the Dark One. Mostly that's due to the way I understand the Creator/Dark One cosmic duality, though.

That said, there's nothing that says time can't still be cyclical without the Dark One involved. Sure, this coming cycle would be different from all that came before, but all subsequent cycles would just follow a "new" Pattern.
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  #26  
Old 11-11-2010, 03:03 PM
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How about unloading a boatload of balefire on Mierin so that what she did when she opened the bore didn't happen? How much balefire to go back 3000+ years though? Hmm..
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  #27  
Old 11-11-2010, 03:05 PM
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How about unloading a boatload of balefire on Mierin so that what she did when she opened the bore didn't happen? How much balefire to go back 3000+ years though? Hmm..
Sounds like a good way to unravel the Pattern completely. And even if that didn't happen, the balescream would leave the whole world deaf, which would just make it easier for the Dark One when he did eventually break free. After all, we've never seen His lips move, have we?

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  #28  
Old 11-11-2010, 03:43 PM
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I have to disagree with both of you - there's no indication that the Creator made the Pattern such that it depends on the Dark One to properly operate.
Well, it was mostly speculation on my part. Based on Fel's words "faith and order give strength".
What gave me confidence in this hypothesis is a theory I read on the main site about the DO being the Snake of the Wheel of Time.


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In fact, saying that He "sealed the Dark One away from the Pattern" heavily implies that the DO was not intended to have an effect on the Pattern.
That is just what the people there believed. They also believed that Ba'alzamon was the DO. And other incorrect things. We can't use their beliefs as proof of something.

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The Pattern and the Wheel aren't "order," they are balance. The Dark One merely tips the balance too far in the direction of chaos and evil, due to his too-strong touch on the Pattern.
That's a possibility, and I thought of it too.
But the DO tips he balance when he gets out of his prison and touches the world directly.
While he is imprisoned the world is in balance. But, Lanfear was able to detect the DO even when he was sealed. This means that he still had some effect on the pattern.
There are other indications.
It's said that death is his realm, and indeed he can take people away from death. Dead souls go to TaR, which is a world connected to all the worlds, and is from there that the wheel spins out souls into the pattern.
The DO causing the moving of the wheel, and the point where he and the wheel interact being TaR would be consistent with those facts.
He also can't break time. Time being movement of the wheel caused by him would explain this.

Also, the end of the 2nd age was caused by his getting free. And his interaction with the world has caused all the changes during the last 3000 years. The wheel spins out Ta'veren to correct errors caused by the DO to the pattern. The end of the 3rd age is caused, again, by the DO coming free.

The DO causes change in the patten. The DO causes the WoT to move in reaction to his actions. Those are facts.
The question is whether those are the only things that cause the wheel to move, or if it's already in a balance of order and chaos without any sort of influence, even weak, from the DO.
But the cases I presented above, especially Mierin finding the DO, suggest otherwise.
  #29  
Old 11-11-2010, 06:26 PM
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That's a possibility, and I thought of it too.
But the DO tips he balance when he gets out of his prison and touches the world directly.
While he is imprisoned the world is in balance. But, Lanfear was able to detect the DO even when he was sealed. This means that he still had some effect on the pattern.
I'd suggest you dig around in Terez's interview/question archive - I'm not conversant enough in them to point you in exactly the right direction, but RJ addressed the "existence of evil before the Bore" issue in the past. The practical upshot is that there is still evil in the Pattern without the influence of the Dark One - though I admit I'm not sure if he qualified it by saying "direct influence" or not.
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  #30  
Old 11-11-2010, 08:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Belazamon View Post
I agree that Rand will (probably) not actually destroy the Dark One. Mostly that's due to the way I understand the Creator/Dark One cosmic duality, though.

That said, there's nothing that says time can't still be cyclical without the Dark One involved. Sure, this coming cycle would be different from all that came before, but all subsequent cycles would just follow a "new" Pattern.
You maybe right in that. There is no real evidence to fully support either possibility. Most of my belief of it is gut instinct that the DO would not exist without a reason. You can point to cosmic duality as a reason but then I would suspect that would still throw all of existence off and destroy the Wheel.

It could be that the Wheel draws on the Creator and DO to achieve that balance that it seeks in the Pattern and without one you can not have balance.

But yeah, I think we both agree that for whatever reason, the DO is not toast.
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  #31  
Old 11-13-2010, 08:33 AM
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You maybe right in that. But yeah, I think we both agree that for whatever reason, the DO is not toast.
I hear this a lot and it has made me consider the why of it. I understand that this is supposed to be a "normal turning" of the wheel, but consider this: as far as we know, this is the only time the Dragon has known about the Dark One.

Every other cycle, the Dark One was accidentally released, and worldchanging events lead to his resealing. The Dragon did his job, died or grew old, then was reborn with no recollection of who or what he was, let along what the Dark One was. The books refer several times in the early chapters to the unsurety of the forsaken about Rand's memories because it had never before been prophecied that someone would be reborn into the pattern.

So, while the cycle might be all the same, and it may play out like a game of chess, I feel like this time the pieces know they are pieces and aren't going to settle for a checkmate threat...I think Rand will go for the Kill. Rand has more information about the Dark One in this incarnation than any before, and this is most likely his best chance to destroy the Dark One.

I also am a firm believer that "The Last Battle" has a certain significance. Its not just "The Last Battle with the Dark One...Until the Next Last Battle with the Dark One...UNTIL..." I think it has a sense of finality to it.
  #32  
Old 11-13-2010, 11:44 AM
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The Last battle will be similar to Ragnarok.
Maybe it will end everything, maybe not.
  #33  
Old 11-14-2010, 07:44 AM
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How do you stop something. Make it fight something else.

Seal away the DO and Fain at the same time and they fight each other forever, just like Rand's wounds and presto, the world is safe. Yeehaaarrr!

Now the sealing bit?
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  #34  
Old 11-14-2010, 08:14 AM
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Of course, the DO would obliterate Fain without even noticing he was there, but apart from that, it seems like a good idea.
  #35  
Old 11-14-2010, 08:30 AM
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Says you!
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  #36  
Old 11-14-2010, 09:17 AM
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Of course, the DO would obliterate Fain without even noticing he was there, but apart from that, it seems like a good idea.
I think Padan Fain has been building momentum since book one to become a titan of evil that will be able to throw down with the Dark One on a similar scale. Two wounds one from The Dark One, one from Fain, both sealed together and are equals in destructiveness. A sign? I would like to think so.
  #37  
Old 11-15-2010, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SixPips View Post
Every other cycle, the Dark One was accidentally released, and worldchanging events lead to his resealing. The Dragon did his job, died or grew old, then was reborn with no recollection of who or what he was, let along what the Dark One was.
And you know this how????

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The books refer several times in the early chapters to the unsurety of the forsaken about Rand's memories because it had never before been prophecied that someone would be reborn into the pattern.
That they know of. Their entire body of knowledge amounts to a few hundred years of the Age of Legends and some of the current age. That is it.

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I also am a firm believer that "The Last Battle" has a certain significance. Its not just "The Last Battle with the Dark One...Until the Next Last Battle with the Dark One...UNTIL..." I think it has a sense of finality to it.
Hate to burst your bubble, trust me I use to think the same thing, but nope, nothing significant.

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Originally Posted by RJ
No . . . Every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this Age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.
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  #38  
Old 11-16-2010, 08:52 AM
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In defense in regards to Gimp:

1.) Herid Fel Hypothesized about the circling of the wheel,and how the Dark One would only be released after sufficient enough time had passed that not even legend or myth of his existence is left for the people to know. The Dark One is released by accident because noone knew he existed in the time period he is released during.

2.)The Knowledge of the Forsaken is still more than anyone else knows. As a side thought: most people the pattern has spun back out exist in The World of Dreams awaiting to be respun (ergo Birgitte, Gaidal, Artur Hawkwing...) where as Rand is never indicated to have been there. As such, his Rebirth is indeed atypical.

3.)The Dark One exists outside the Wheel, the wheel would turn endlessly if he never existed, therefore the theory that The Last Battle is THE LAST battle can still hold weight. Notice that RJ did not say that the Dark One is endless, only the Wheel.

Hope that helps my defense = )

Last edited by SixPips; 11-16-2010 at 08:54 AM.
  #39  
Old 11-16-2010, 09:35 AM
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By default, destroying the DO in this Age makes this Age, and every Age thereafter, different.

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The Dark One exists outside the Wheel
This I will nitpick on. The DO was imprisoned outside of the Pattern, not the Wheel. That makes a big difference. We already know that DO is bound by time constraints that he would not be if he existed outside of the Wheel.

For 1: You seem to be implying that the Dragon Soul has never before been reborn in the manner that it is currently in Rand. I am not certain how you are coming to that conclusion or why? I could misinterpreting what you are saying though.

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As a side thought: most people the pattern has spun back out exist in The World of Dreams awaiting to be respun (ergo Birgitte, Gaidal, Artur Hawkwing...) where as Rand is never indicated to have been there.
Huh? Every soul is spun back out. Only those few souls bound to the Horn await their souls next turn in T'A'R. And it has been indicated that Rand's soul was hanging out there before.
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