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Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Book 13: Towers of Midnight
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  #1  
Old 12-17-2010, 11:55 AM
Landro Landro is offline
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Default Egwene's Dream about the nest of eagles

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The vision changed. She was looking down at a nest. In it, a group of fledgling eagles screeched toward the sky for their mother. One of the eaglets uncoiled, and it wasn't an eagle at all, but a serpent. It began to strike at the fledglings one at a time, swallowing them whole. The eaglets simply continued to stare into the sky, pretending that the serpent was their sibling as it devoured them…

The middle of the three this night was the clearest to her. She felt the meaning of it, interpreting it as she sometimes could. The serpent was one of the Forsaken, hidden in the White Tower, pretending to be Aes Sedai. Egwene had suspected this was the case—Verin had said she believed it so.
Mesaana was still in the White Tower.
Egwene is correct about Mesaana hiding in the Tower but I think she misinterprets the Dream nonetheless.

Egwene attributes the murdered sisters to Mesaana when in fact, they were killed by the Bloodknives. So the events don't match the Dream because the "serpent" didn't kill any "eagles". Dreams are supposed to be prophetic which implies that it's impossible to change the outcome unless there's an "if" involved.

I think it's more likely to refer to the BT and the 13x13 thing going on there because we know that actually happened and the people there are slow to notice what's happening there while others (e.g. Egwene and Rand) hardly pay any attention to it even when they know they should.
  #2  
Old 12-17-2010, 12:27 PM
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The bloodknives weren't the only ones causing Aes Sedai deaths, nor did they disguise themselves as Sisters/siblings. In the Battle for the Tower in tel'aran'rhiod, Mesaana/Danelle Aes Sedai/Serpent (along with her minion Black Ajah Aes Sedai) killed quite a few Aes Sedai/eagles. So the dream was true, just in a different time frame, since the battle was after the bloodknives killings.
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  #3  
Old 12-17-2010, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
The bloodknives weren't the only ones causing Aes Sedai deaths, nor did they disguise themselves as Sisters/siblings. In the Battle for the Tower in tel'aran'rhiod, Mesaana/Danelle Aes Sedai/Serpent (along with her minion Black Ajah Aes Sedai) killed quite a few Aes Sedai/eagles. So the dream was true, just in a different time frame, since the battle was after the bloodknives killings.
Egwene thinks Mesaana/Snake kills AS/Eagles. She's wrong. Mesaana does end up killing AS in T'A'R but her hiding among the AS has little to do with that I think. She could have entered T'A'R from anywhere in the world and still killed those AS. The bloodknives have nothing to do with this Dream except that Egwene attributes their killing of AS to Mesaana.
  #4  
Old 12-17-2010, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Landro View Post
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The middle of the three this night was the clearest to her. She felt the meaning of it, interpreting it as she sometimes could.
Egwene is correct about Mesaana hiding in the Tower but I think she misinterprets the Dream nonetheless.
The bolded portion is author/omniscient narrator code for "This one's a freeby. You don't have to think about it."

Like Min's viewings, when she just knows wat it means, she's right. It is only when Egwene has to guess or deduce the meaning of a dream does she sometime get it wrong.
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  #5  
Old 12-19-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
The bolded portion is author/omniscient narrator code for "This one's a freeby. You don't have to think about it."

Like Min's viewings, when she just knows wat it means, she's right. It is only when Egwene has to guess or deduce the meaning of a dream does she sometime get it wrong.
Elaida has "known" the meaning of several of her own Foretellings too and, well, let's just say she wasn't 100% correct.

From the top of my head, all of Egwene's Dreams have been about the future and none of them were prevented. If this Dream is about Mesaana then it was prevented because the AS that were killed by Mesaana after this Dream, were aware that they were in danger.
  #6  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:06 AM
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Perhaps Egwene is the serpent, eating the WT from within?
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Old 12-19-2010, 11:16 AM
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Elaida has actually been right in what she knew about what she foretold, she was just wrong about what she went from there, "The dragon reborn will stand before the amyrlin and know her anger", just not elaida, "the WT will be whole again stronger then ever before" just not under elaida

The foretelling is right but it's still easy to go wrong with the truth, its like asking a genie questions, the answers can be totally truthful but completely misleading
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  #8  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:43 AM
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I'm kind of surprised that Felix hasn't picked up on their being eaglets, considering.
  #9  
Old 12-19-2010, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Perhaps Egwene is the serpent, eating the WT from within?
I was going to say that it was her attacking the people she grew up with. It supposed to be the equivelant to Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount, but she went completely the wrong way with it. After all, she can do no wrong!
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Old 12-22-2010, 12:53 PM
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Elaida has actually been right in what she knew about what she foretold, she was just wrong about what she went from there, "The dragon reborn will stand before the amyrlin and know her anger", just not elaida, "the WT will be whole again stronger then ever before" just not under elaida
The problem with this is that under Elaida was part of what she knew. She was wrong, but when she had the prophecy she knew that they referred to her. If we're accepting the person having the viewing always being right if they know what it means (aside from Min, who actually has a proven track record there as well as Word of God backing it up), then Elaida is a clear disproof of that idea. She knew she would be Amyrlin over a bigger better stronger tower, and that al'Thor would know her anger. She was wrong. While you could describe it as ironic, you cannot describe her as right in what she knew.
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Old 12-22-2010, 01:05 PM
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The words come with the Foretelling, and the feeling of certainty applies only to those words, just like Egwene's feeling of certainty applies only to the Mesaana=viper aspect of the dream. Both Elaida and Egwene make a mistake in carrying it too far; likely the Wise Ones are far less susceptible to this sort of thing.

(sorry, haven't been reading the thread)
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:38 AM
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There are cases (like Nicola) who do not even remember the words, so I do not think that there is reason to believe that there is such a "feeling of certainty with the words" either. That is a feature which seems unique to Min's version.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
There are cases (like Nicola) who do not even remember the words, so I do not think that there is reason to believe that there is such a "feeling of certainty with the words" either. That is a feature which seems unique to Min's version.
Actually the dreamers seem to think that when they know the meaning, that is what the dream is about.

The only feature unique to Min is that when she knows the meaning it will happen, while for dreams it's still only a possibility, albeit one with a high chance of coming true.
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Old 12-23-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
There are cases (like Nicola) who do not even remember the words, so I do not think that there is reason to believe that there is such a "feeling of certainty with the words" either. That is a feature which seems unique to Min's version.
Elaida has it, and it is so similar to what Min and Egwene feel that it is obviously the same thing. It just doesn't prevent misinterpretation; only experience and self-control can do that.
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  #15  
Old 12-23-2010, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The words come with the Foretelling, and the feeling of certainty applies only to those words, just like Egwene's feeling of certainty applies only to the Mesaana=viper aspect of the dream. Both Elaida and Egwene make a mistake in carrying it too far; likely the Wise Ones are far less susceptible to this sort of thing.

(sorry, haven't been reading the thread)

The Wise Ones have been as blind, as a few others have. None of them foresaw Egwene al'Vere nor Mat Cauthon entering the Aiel Waste. They didn't foresee Mat Cauthon entering Rhuidean, next to Rand al'Thor either. Yes, Wise Ones are mortals too.


Linda at 13th Depository once connected Tuon to a snake deity, i recall... so I guess that Dream of Egwene might be related to a Seanchan Empire invasion of the White Tower.

How so? Tuon tied to the Serpents presently; in a former turning of the Wheel as Queen Eldrene of Manetheren, she was also an Aes Sedai. Thus, eating of one's own?

Or perhaps, the eating of one's own... is instead tied to Fortuona killing her husbands own followers, the White Tower Aes Sedai, in a type of civil war?

Shrug. That's a very quick speculation at least....
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Old 12-23-2010, 02:52 PM
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The vision changed. She was looking down at a nest. In it, a group of fledgling eagles screeched toward the sky for their mother. One of the eaglets uncoiled, and it wasn't an eagle at all, but a serpent. It began to strike at the fledglings one at a time, swallowing them whole. The eaglets simply continued to stare into the sky, pretending that the serpent was their sibling as it devoured them…
Or perhaps, the fledgling eagles are Novices who actually were Black Ajah or Moghedien or Mesaana plants?

Why? Dissension.
Mesaana always was good at Dissension, according to Demandred & Semirhage.


If Moghedien planted spies and individuals ultimately loyal to herself, along the new recruits of Queen Guards in Caemlyn--as is one theory of mine. It is fitting to consider Moghedien would have done the very same thing in Tar Valon, as a form of planned of later revenge.

The Spider sought to get back at Graendal in Arad Doman, for applying a Compulsion weave.... Egwene al'Vere did perhaps a worse thing, in Moghedien's eyes. She held and imprisoned Moghedien with an a'dam. Thus, gaining Moghedien an even worst position in the Dark Lord's eyes and a Mindtrap to boot.
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