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  #61  
Old 12-23-2010, 05:08 AM
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Default Who leads Rand's Linked Circle? No, to Nynaeve. Yes, to Mierin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless View Post
Nynaeve's the best bet for leading the circle.
Problem: Nynaeve specifically claimed in her thoughts, after the Cleansing of the Taint, she NEVER ever wants to join into a Linked Circle with an individual who channels Saidin. (See CoT book)

Conclusion: Nynaeve will absolutely not join a Linked Circle with Rand al'Thor, nor any other male channeler.


Alternatively, who once claimed to be a more Talented Channeler than L.T.T was?
Mierin, otherwise known as Lanfear.

Who once bent her knee and kneeled to Rand al'Thor?
Mierin, otherwise known as Selene.
(See TGH book, the Mirror World chapters for scene).
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  #62  
Old 12-23-2010, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Problem: Nynaeve specifically claimed in her thoughts, after the Cleansing of the Taint, she NEVER ever wants to join into a Linked Circle with an individual who channels Saidin. (See CoT book)

Conclusion: Nynaeve will absolutely not join a Linked Circle with Rand al'Thor, nor any other male channeler.
She may have changed her mind:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 15, Use a Pebble
"Go to Egwene," Rand said, releasing her shoulder. "But when you can, I would like it very much if you returned to me. I will need your counsel again. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

"I will be there, Rand." She felt oddly proud. "Hold still for a moment. I won't hurt you. I promise."
Of course, she could have been telling lies. She isn't bound by the Oaths, yet, after all, at this point.
  #63  
Old 12-23-2010, 09:09 AM
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Default Hm!

I don't have any concrete evidence for this idea 's but of late there's a nagging feeling 'why can't the three be Mat, Perrin and Rand' of course it's not that Mat and Perrin could channel But may be when they are doing their djob - Perrin as the standard bearer Mat as the horn sounder and rand doing his stuff.

I don't know if I could find any references to support the theory any pointers would be much appreciated

Last edited by gholam; 12-23-2010 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Typos
  #64  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
She may have changed her mind:
Of course, she could have been telling lies. She isn't bound by the Oaths, yet, after all, at this point.
excluding Rand Therin with his AoL knowledge, she is the best suited to heal the pattern.
I've always thought of the sealing of the Bore in a similar way as reconnecting the 2 severed parts when she heals a stilled person.
In that case Damer Flinn would also be suited to the job. Perhaps they'll each lead a circle and work together.

As for callandor, I think they have the wrong idea about it.they believe they have to nullify the effect of its flaw. I think they'll have to make use of the flaw to win the last battle.
  #65  
Old 12-23-2010, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by gholam View Post
I don't have any concrete evidence for this idea 's but of late there's a nagging feeling 'why can't the three be Mat, Perrin and Rand' of course it's not that Mat and Perrin could channel But may be when they are doing their djob - Perrin as the standard bearer Mat as the horn sounder and rand doing his stuff.

I don't know if I could find any references to support the theory any pointers would be much appreciated
I've also considered the 3 ta'veren for the three who become one. The problem is that the Callandor theory fits with what we know of link mechanics. Links function as an automatic overdraw buffer as long as someone else is in control, and two women, one man is the minimum necessary circle that allows a woman to control the flows.

Of course it's entirely possible that the prophecies referred to something else entirely, like the ta'veren, and the Callandor thing will happen anyway just cause it's the best way to compensate for the missing surge protector.
  #66  
Old 12-23-2010, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
She may have changed her mind:
Of course, she could have been telling lies. She isn't bound by the Oaths, yet, after all, at this point.
Nynaeve will keep her word, her promises. For example, her other prior promises to Mat Cauthon.

There is a problem through, even with that TofM quotation.


Problem:
  1. Nynaeve claimed " I won't hurt you. I promise."
  2. Dark Prophecy foretells:

    Quote:
    Daughter of the Night (Mierin), she walks again.
    The ancient war, she yet fights.
    Her new lover (Rand) she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Incompatible:
  • Nynaeve will not hurt Rand.
  • Rand will serve Mierin, shifted control of a Link Circle to Mierin, and die.

Outcome: Nynaeve is not part of a Linked Circle with Rand, which "hurts him" or "kills him".
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  #67  
Old 12-23-2010, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nameless View Post
I've also considered the 3 ta'veren for the three who become one. The problem is that the Callandor theory fits with what we know of link mechanics. Links function as an automatic overdraw buffer as long as someone else is in control, and two women, one man is the minimum necessary circle that allows a woman to control the flows.

Of course it's entirely possible that the prophecies referred to something else entirely, like the ta'veren, and the Callandor thing will happen anyway just cause it's the best way to compensate for the missing surge protector.
Yeah! that sounds logical. May be this is one of those ideas rather than theories which might die an early death - but who knows. Callandor is like an onion, there is always something new about it. Even in TOM

Last edited by gholam; 12-25-2010 at 09:32 AM. Reason: typos typos typos
  #68  
Old 12-25-2010, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
N

Outcome: Nynaeve is not part of a Linked Circle with Rand, which "hurts him" or "kills him".


That Dark Prophecy quote is not about The Three or Callandor... It has no references to it, at all. Nothing in that prophecy relates to or even hints at a relation to such an event.
  #69  
Old 12-25-2010, 08:55 AM
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i would laugh so hard if tuon was part of the circle. That would be the most absurd thing ever in the series.
  #70  
Old 12-25-2010, 02:55 PM
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i would laugh so hard if tuon was part of the circle. That would be the most absurd thing ever in the series.
Ironic too.
  #71  
Old 12-25-2010, 06:08 PM
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i would laugh so hard if tuon was part of the circle. That would be the most absurd thing ever in the series.
Just wait until Gawyn kills Rand.
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  #72  
Old 12-27-2010, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by CreationEdge View Post
That Dark Prophecy quote is not about The Three or Callandor... It has no references to it, at all. Nothing in that prophecy relates to or even hints at a relation to such an event.
No references to it? Ha!


Min has a foretelling specifically about Alivia, which is exactly in the same vein as the Dark Prophecy writings (TGH book):

Quote:
Alivia - "Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you." Rand replies, "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

Winter's Heart, Chapter 25 -- Rand point of view; next to Min.
Alivia is going to help Rand al'Thor die.


The Karaethon Cycle or Cycle of the Dragon, proclaims that a Blade (e.g. Callandor) and Three shall be one.

Quote:
"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

The Gathering Storm, Chapter 48

Rand, Callandor, Alivia, and Mierin each are all tied together by multiple prophecies and foretellings.

Quote:
Callandor. With that in my hands, I can do anything. Anything. I know I can do anything.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 21 "Into the Heart" -- Moiraine point of view; Rand speaking, with Egwene, Mat, Lan, et la in scene

Even writings in the "future" imply directly that the Moon (Mierin) and the Sun (Rand) died to end the Third Age during the Last Battle.

Quote:
And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age

Karaethon Cycle prophecy proclaims that the Dragon Reborn will die, and be born again:

Quote:
"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.
"


The Great Hunt, Chapter 26 -- Rand point of view

Prophecy even proclaims that people will be blinded (lightning), and his Blood shall give us Light.

Quote:
"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation."


The Great Hunt, Prologue -- Header

The Dark Prophecy even proclaims Mierin the Daughter of the Night will kill the Dragon Reborn...

Quote:
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 7
What does the 'serve' in this above context reference?

Quote:
  • be a servant to
  • carry out duties
  • meet a purpose; perform a function

Source: Oxford Desk Dictionary (American Edition); Oxford Univ. Press, 1995
Mierin is an Aes Sedai, in terms of the 2nd Age pre-Breaking Era;
Mierin is fighting the Shadow, past and present;
Mierin will protect those of the Light and shall kill those who have been touched by the Shadow--including Rand al'Thor.


Why would Rand al'Thor let Mierin guide the weaves which shall kill himself?

Mierin is a more apt & talented channeler than the Dragon Reborn is, for one reason among others.

Quote:
Lanfear appeared to have no trouble breathing. “Whatever you can do, Lews Therin, I can do. And better.” Pinned against the wall as she was, she seemed unperturbed. The din of fighting surged up somewhere nearby, then faded as the battle moved away. “You half-use the smallest fraction of what you are capable of, and walk away from what would allow you to crush all who come against you. Where is Callandor, Lews Therin? Still up in your bedchamber like some useless ornament? Do you think yours is the only hand that can wield it, now that you have drawn it free?

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 10 'The Stone Stands' -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Lanfear/Mierin


Rand al'Thor has been touched by the Dark One directly since at least his fight against Asmodean in Rhuidean. How? Rand became one with the 'Black Steel Wires' in the Void. Thought can become reality in the Void, like in the Dream Worlds.

Quote:
He had not seen those strange things like black steel wires around Asmodean since leaving the dark place, but he could visualize them even in the Void, place them in his mind around the Forsaken. Tam had taught him the Void as an aid to archery, to be one with the bow, the arrow, the target. He made himself one with those imagined black wires.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; fighting Asmodean
Nynaeve saw the Dark One's touch, on Rand's mind in TofM book during a delving.
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  #73  
Old 12-27-2010, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
No references to it? Ha!


Min has a foretelling specifically about Alivia, which is exactly in the same vein as the Dark Prophecy writings (TGH book):



Alivia is going to help Rand al'Thor die.


The Karaethon Cycle or Cycle of the Dragon, proclaims that a Blade (e.g. Callandor) and Three shall be one.




Rand, Callandor, Alivia, and Mierin each are all tied together by multiple prophecies and foretellings.




Even writings in the "future" imply directly that the Moon (Mierin) and the Sun (Rand) died to end the Third Age during the Last Battle.




Karaethon Cycle prophecy proclaims that the Dragon Reborn will die, and be born again:




Prophecy even proclaims that people will be blinded (lightning), and his Blood shall give us Light.




The Dark Prophecy even proclaims Mierin the Daughter of the Night will kill the Dragon Reborn...



What does the 'serve' in this above context reference?



Mierin is an Aes Sedai, in terms of the 2nd Age pre-Breaking Era;
Mierin is fighting the Shadow, past and present;
Mierin will protect those of the Light and shall kill those who have been touched by the Shadow--including Rand al'Thor.


Why would Rand al'Thor let Mierin guide the weaves which shall kill himself?

Mierin is a more apt & talented channeler than the Dragon Reborn is, for one reason among others.





Rand al'Thor has been touched by the Dark One directly since at least his fight against Asmodean in Rhuidean. How? Rand became one with the 'Black Steel Wires' in the Void. Thought can become reality in the Void, like in the Dream Worlds.



Nynaeve saw the Dark One's touch, on Rand's mind in TofM book during a delving.
That was a well thought out and actually very coherent post, Felix. Well done.

Not that I agree with it in the least.
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  #74  
Old 12-28-2010, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 7
Could the new lover be Ishamael, who died and returned as Moridin?

After all, LTT/Rand was her old lover.
  #75  
Old 12-28-2010, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Could the new lover be Ishamael, who died and returned as Moridin?

After all, LTT/Rand was her old lover.
Utterly impossible.

Why? Because Mierin claims to love the soul of Lew Therin always: past, present, future.

Quote:
She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. “Graendal said . . . ” she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. “Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!”

The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 6 "Gateways" -- Rand point of view; with Mierin/Lanfear/Selene/Else Grinwell/Moonhunter/Silvie speaking
Who did Mierin seek out, and kneel to?
In a Mirror World, no less, with two witnesses present?

Quote:
“I am called Selene,” she said. “You have risked your life, and saved mine. I am yours, Lord Rand al’Thor.” And, to Rand’s horror, she knelt before him.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 16 "In the Mirror of Darkness" -- Rand point of view; with Loial, Hurin, Mierin
What's so special about the place Mierin kneeled to Rand al'Thor?

It's the one place the Dark One cannot touch, according to Graendal in TofM book. Thus, Mierin kept her ultimate loyalties to Rand secret from the Dark Lord and Ishamael.

Who's life does Mierin care for?
Rand al'Thor's as can be readily seen...
Quote:
Selene still seemed uneasy when he helped her dismount. “Are you all right?” he asked. “I didn’t frighten you back there, did I? Red would never fall over a cliff with me.” He wondered what had really happened.

“You terrified me,” she said in a tight voice, “and I do not frighten easily. You could have killed yourself, killed . . . ” She smoothed her dress.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 20 'Saidin' -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mierin, Loial, Hurin.
Who does Mierin claim to think of always?

Quote:
I must leave you for a time. There are too many people here, and I do not like Caldevwin. I will await you in Cairhien. Never think that I am too far from you. You will be in my thoughts always, as I know that I am in yours.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 21 "The Nine Rings" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; reading Selene/Mierin's Letter
Who is the one man Mierin "could stand beside"?
Rand al'Thor.

Quote:
“One of those pathetic followers of Ba’alzamon who think he will give them immortality and power? I follow no one. There is one man I could stand beside, but I do not follow.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 20 "Visitations" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Selene/Mierin
Just as Rand al'Thor could recognize who Mierin is, by only looking into the soul of her eyes, in TofM book. Mierin is able to do the very same, recognize souls by looking into a person's eyes.

Quote:
Not with that, certainly,” she added, grimacing at Callandor. “There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that.

“Stop calling me that,” he growled. “My name is Rand. Rand al’Thor.”

“You are Lews Therin Telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height, but I would know who is behind those eyes even if I’d found you in your cradle.” She laughed suddenly.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decision" -- Rand point of view; with Mierin

Moridin on the other hand prefers Cows to Humans....
Moridin evens knows Mierin betrayed Asmodean to Rand al'Thor's side, as is implied in TofM book (Graendal point of view).

Moridin is a torturing terrorist, not a new lover of Mierin's.
Moridin seeks death; Mierin seeks love.
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  #76  
Old 12-28-2010, 05:23 PM
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Just wait until Gawyn kills Rand.
oh the uproar would be delicious to watch. Dragonmount forums would probably crash!
  #77  
Old 12-28-2010, 06:26 PM
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oh the uproar would be delicious to watch. Dragonmount forums would probably crash!
And then shall Theoryland stand among the ashes, immortal.
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