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  #41  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:29 PM
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Bah! Probably the whelp of some Cairhienin serving woman.
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  #42  
Old 03-16-2011, 12:37 PM
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Bah! Probably the whelp of some Cairhienin serving woman.
Or a Tairen one. Wouldn't it be fun if Mat were the father?
  #43  
Old 03-16-2011, 01:21 PM
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He would make a good father, if that Olver lad is any indication.

But could be a threat to the Seanchan throne. No one wants some illegitimate offspring showing up, contesting their rule. A messy business that. Best to round up all the babies born in Tear in the last year or so, and exile them to some remote island.
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  #44  
Old 03-16-2011, 06:14 PM
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Personally I think Gaidal Cain is Gadren Grady, he is big for his age. I have a nephew who looked 4 when he was younger than 2. I think that might apply to Gadren.
  #45  
Old 03-23-2011, 12:41 AM
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I have a small theory that may or may not make sense. Now we know that TAR doesn't move backwards in time, perse`, but what if it exists in different line of time. While it does move forward there, it doesn't move parallell to time in the normal world. Actually, we already know that, to a point, but what if it's more than that?

I'm not sure how to explain this, but what if when someone goes into TAR, they are actually going back in time in that world and interacting with the people who live there as spirits. True, Nyneave met Cain in TAR, but what if, compared to our time, she had already done that before she did and when she actually went there and did it, she was just catching up to her TAR self in that point of time?

It's kind of a paradox, I know, but maybe it would explain how a soul could seemingly be in TAR at the same time it was alive in the real world, but in fact you were just interacting with the past version, an echo, if you will, of that soul. Like I said, I don't know if this makes any sense to yall, as I'm not sure really how to put it to words, but there it is.
  #46  
Old 03-23-2011, 11:19 AM
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@Edynol - it's an interesting idea but I don't think there's any evidence that time in TAR flows any differently to time in the rest of the world.
  #47  
Old 03-23-2011, 01:21 PM
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We know time flows different there - Birgitte explained it. But RJ also explained that Gaidal Cain has to have been born after he disappeared in Tel'aran'rhiod because time does not flow backwards, so I'm not sure why Edynol thinks his/her argument gets around that fact in any way.
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  #48  
Old 03-23-2011, 03:42 PM
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We know time flows different there - Birgitte explained it. But RJ also explained that Gaidal Cain has to have been born after he disappeared in Tel'aran'rhiod because time does not flow backwards, so I'm not sure why Edynol thinks his/her argument gets around that fact in any way.
If I read that person correctly, I think she is saying ppl in TAR are backwards in time, thus Cain was spun out prior to the corrisponding time in the real world... which makes no sense what so ever...
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  #49  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:18 PM
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If I read that person correctly, I think she is saying ppl in TAR are backwards in time, thus Cain was spun out prior to the corrisponding time in the real world... which makes no sense what so ever...
If time flows differently in T'A'R, then an event in the real world may not correspond to its T'A'R counterpart. Of course, that assumes some sort of absolute time measurement, which there is not.

But imagine if time is slower in the Unseen World one day. Let's say a house burns down in the Real World that morning. The house may not disappear in T'A'R for, say, several hours in the RW. That is, you could dream yourself into T'A'R and find the house still there.

Now imagine if a Hero of the Horn were born that morning. The baby is crying at 9 a.m., but since time is slower in T'A'R, the Hero could potentially still be in T'A'R at 10 a.m.

I think RJ was deliberately trying to avoid such problems by having static structures (like White Towers) leave a stronger impression than dynamic objects (like letters in a box). But if time indeed flows faster or slower at any given point, events cannot correspond directly. This means Gaidal Cain could have potentially been born into the Real World before his soul actually left Tel'aran'rhiod.


**ETA**
I wonder if time is subjective to the dreamer, such that once a person knew Gaidal was reborn, all interactions in T'A'R could include that fact. Makes for problems with Birgitte's conversations pre-ripout though...
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  #50  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:22 PM
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I really don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand the parameters of who can and cannot be Gaidal Cain Reborn:

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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Time runs strangley in T'A'R but it does NOT run backwards. No person living while Gaidal was known to be in T'A'R can be Gaidal reborn.

No Child not born within nine months of Gaidal's disappearance from T'A'R can be Gaidal Reborn.

...

Birgitte reported that Gaidal had been spun out on Day 512 according to the WOT Chronology That means Gaidal woul have been reborn no later than day 782. Look for a babe born sometime between tFoH Ch 14 and TGS Ch30.
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  #51  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:42 PM
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Not by years though. So you're still back to Gaidal being an infant, or not yet born, no matter how one dances around the time differential in T'A'R.

(Come to think of it, are Melaine's twins about right for the timing of Gaidal Cain's disappearance? I'm trying to remember.. Min tells Melaine from her vision in.. LoC, and Melaine just barely knew at that point. Not even known long enough to tell Bael. Gaidal disappears at some point in what, tFoH?)

Though to that point, I took the time difference to apply only to how a particular person perceives time flowing in T'A'R as opposed to the real world. It isn't that Birgitte was existing in one time frame while, say, Nynaeve was experiencing a different one in the future, and they brought their time together.

It is that, had Birgitte remained in the T'A'R reflection of a mountain in the Spine of the World, while Nynaeve remained in the T'A'R reflection of the Stone of Tear, each would perceive a different experience of time flow. Say for Birgitte, 3 hours in the real world actually only feels like an hour in T'A'R. And for Nynaeve, just 90 minutes passes in the real world while she feels like it has been an hour.

If they come together, then they experience the same time flow.

Now if Gaidal Cain's new real world body that he has been spun out to was ready for his soul at 9am Real World Time, it really doesn't matter what time it is in T'A'R. If you put yourself into a waking trance at 8am Real World Time, and spent two hours in the real world there but it felt like three hours in T'A'R, and while in T'A'R you were somehow with Gaidal Cain (and he was breaking the Precepts to be talking to you at that time), then I would imagine he'd disappear at whatever point the real world hit 9am. The crazy thing is, I doubt that event would even match the 2:3 ratio I just put in. As I recall, a basis of this entire series is Jordan playing with non-linear time.

None of this allows for a pseudo 'time-travel', however, and I don't think it was intended to be a possibility. It is all a matter of how one perceives the passage of their experience of time in T'A'R. (Edited to reinforce this, as it was the point I was trying to make. It is perception, not actual time movement. Thanks to Harold's post for reminding me of what I'd begun with.)

Last edited by Heinz; 03-23-2011 at 05:52 PM.
  #52  
Old 03-23-2011, 05:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
If time flows differently in T'A'R, then an event in the real world may not correspond to its T'A'R counterpart. Of course, that assumes some sort of absolute time measurement, which there is not.
...
**ETA**
I wonder if time is subjective to the dreamer, such that once a person knew Gaidal was reborn, all interactions in T'A'R could include that fact. Makes for problems with Birgitte's conversations pre-ripout though...
Time is subjective to dreamers and wakers alike.

It is really very simple: The rate at "time runs" is a measure of how many actions/perceptions can be packed into the space between two events. Any event or interaction that affects both T'A'R and the waking world synchronizes time so that there is an objective before and after divide in both timelines.
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  #53  
Old 04-22-2011, 07:02 PM
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I am hoping it is Olver. He definitely seems to fit the qualifications, ugly as hell and brave.
Plus, every time I'm about to discard it as Cain not being olver, I'm reminded of the many times throughout the series when we're reminded that time in T'A'R and in the waking world are very different. Who's to say a few weeks in T'A'R between Cain being spun out and Birgitte being ripped out couldn't possibly be a decade or so in the waking world?
  #54  
Old 04-22-2011, 10:07 PM
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I am hoping it is Olver. He definitely seems to fit the qualifications, ugly as hell and brave.
Plus, every time I'm about to discard it as Cain not being olver, I'm reminded of the many times throughout the series when we're reminded that time in T'A'R and in the waking world are very different. Who's to say a few weeks in T'A'R between Cain being spun out and Birgitte being ripped out couldn't possibly be a decade or so in the waking world?
Please read this: Gaidal Cain for Noobs (Yes, I know how long you've been around - I remember when you joined, after all - but that makes it even funnier!)
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