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  #21  
Old 07-06-2011, 09:41 PM
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Sorry about my absence - I've had a rather weird couple of days.
It's the "only one attacker" mentality that annoys me, and the desire to capture only. Narishma was able to retrieve Callandor from Rand's layered deadly-to-humans inverted traps, and whilst I'm aware a) Rand has an extra life's (and a more advanced one!) OP XP on him in that regard, could she have had... for want of a better word... a Secret-Keeper for the night? Someone who knew the way around the deadly wards placed and was not easily controlled or discoverable?
(Did she have anyone not involved in the TAR battle that she could trust? Would the closest be Nicola, which she knew likely wasn't BA but wasn't responsible or perceptive? Could she have spared one fighter and one ter'angreal from the battle so she could have one person secreted in her room to pop into TAR and tell her there that Stuff Was Happening?)
Would it be possible to have a trap akin t the one she had that would reset itself - after passing the person on to another trap purely for holding? Or at least one that held the person somewhere... less obvious... so that the room could be designated into "zones" of wards and the surprise wouldn't be ruined/intruder wouldn't be halted by seeing a maid or their comrade strung up in midair?
(Does anyone remember the old PC game? That, ironically, was what got me into WoT, or at least persuaded me to start reading it.)
  #22  
Old 07-07-2011, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Lupusdeusest View Post
Sorry about my absence - I've had a rather weird couple of days.
It's the "only one attacker" mentality that annoys me, and the desire to capture only. Narishma was able to retrieve Callandor from Rand's layered deadly-to-humans inverted traps...

Good to have you back.

But I still think she did quite well with the information available to her. She actually brought in as much outside help as she could trust. You can just imagine her setting guards on her rooms and that of all those involved in the bait. Too much preparation is a sure giveaway.

Worse, it would have done her no good and might have made Gwayn's rescue impossible. If chubain was in charge of security, there'd probably be an officer to deny Gwayn access to the amyrlin's chambers and the bloodknives would slip past him.

Again, whatever traps she set, who's to say what one of the forsaken can do? Travel right into her bedroom with masked weaves? Unless you're suggesting that Egwene has a Talent for wards (which Moiraine seems to have) or is more skilled in battle than we've been led to believe, then the preparations she made were the best to be expected.

All I'm saying is to be fair in assessment of her character and circumstances. She's hardly my favorite character, but I try to be fair though I have criticised her before and might again.

FWIW, Cadsuane did the kind of preparation you're talking about at SL, and it was still pretty close. We shouldn't mention Rand's incompetence during before or after that event. Or we can ascribe it to taint madness.

Phaw! (sorry, had to)
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2011, 04:00 AM
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The preparations which Egwene made to ward off physical attack may have been the best she could do. But they were nowhere near close to good enough, which of course means that putting herself as bait in the trap was just stupid.

If you can not devise a trap that is good enough, then you have to use another solution.

Just to name yet another possibility Egwene does not seem to have considered: the murders might have been done by Gray Men sent by Mesaana, rather than by Mesaana herself. On an earlier occasion, Egwene (and Elayne and Nynaeve) had already been attacked in the White Tower itself by two Gray Men. So she actually knew about this possibility from her own personal experience.
  #24  
Old 07-07-2011, 04:15 AM
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Yet another possibility Egwene hasn't considered: the attack could have come from a batallion of worms using exploding sheep that escaped from a computer game, or Galactus, or the Royal Air Force....

You hold Egwene up to a far higher standard than any other character, Gonzo. Just admit it.
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  #25  
Old 07-07-2011, 05:42 AM
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I think this is the wrong thing to hold against her. she is clearly relatively competent, and while most conceivable wards have holes in their defense (and likely provide a poor defense against a forsaken) no one in their right mind would think those wards adequate. It was purposefully flawed, by author or Pattern (or both) to provide Gawyn with his chance to be a hero, and prove himself to egwene. Egwene is many things (pompous and arrogant barely scratch the surface) but she is not stupid.

Having secret wards that need to be reset and no guards has an obvious hole-any maid or messenger (oblivious to their existence) could inadvertently trip the wards, and without action on egwene's part, they become useless. any inverted ward against sound could stop an alarm. egwene must have known all of this.

I'm glad gawyn is a big hero though
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  #26  
Old 07-07-2011, 06:58 AM
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Yet another possibility Egwene hasn't considered: the attack could have come from a batallion of worms using exploding sheep that escaped from a computer game, or Galactus, or the Royal Air Force....

You hold Egwene up to a far higher standard than any other character, Gonzo. Just admit it.
Egwene didn't know about any of them*, so having her discount them is not something that should be considered too stupid.
However, she did know about the BA, yet she took no precautions against the possibility that there would be anyone else with Mesaana.
She did know about Gray Men, she knew that the murders appeared to be done by a non-channeler, and she knew that Mesaana might have the authority to order Gray Men to carry out assassinations. Yet Egwene took no measures to deal with this possibility at all.
She knew that Gawyn had seen a male would-be killer, yet she decided to ignore that and concentrate only on the assumption that it would be Mesaana alone who came for her.

It is the tunnel vision which she displays here that is the flaw I am griping about. And tunnel vision is a very ordinary situation for Egwene, it comes back again and again and again.
Perrin also got blinded by tunnel vision during his Hunt for Faile, and that annoyed a lot of people (including me) who thought that he should have looked a bit more at the bigger perspective. To wit: he should have re-established communications with Rand.

* Apart from the worms; they are mentioned in the KC, but in a part which hasn't been quoted in the books yet. How did you learn about them?
  #27  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:17 AM
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* Apart from the worms; they are mentioned in the KC, but in a part which hasn't been quoted in the books yet. How did you learn about them?
They're in the Essanik Cycle. I have a copy.

So are you, btw.
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  #28  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:21 AM
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They're in the Essanik Cycle. I have a copy.
But I don't think we can assume that Egwene has the EC, so she has to do with the (somewhat vagues, admittedly) reference in the KC instead.
  #29  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:33 AM
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But I don't think we can assume that Egwene has the EC, so she has to do with the (somewhat vagues, admittedly) reference in the KC instead.
So by your standards the logical response to the situation was to what? Dig a tunnel with the blowtorch (or the Power, I guess), block it up with girders and hide in it, calling in airstrikes until the enemy had been wiped out?
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  #30  
Old 07-07-2011, 07:54 AM
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Good idea, that.

Alternatively, set up precisely the kind of trap she actually did use, then, right before going to sleep, use an inverted weave to go to another room entirely, possibly somewhere in Rhuidean, and sleep there. That way, if the trap works, and no one gets past it once it has been sprung, fine, no problem. If the trap is not enough, then all the would-be assassin finds is an empty bed.

Appearing to be bait might be a good idea. Being defenseless and available for getting her throat slit was not.
  #31  
Old 07-07-2011, 08:09 AM
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Good idea, that.

Alternatively, set up precisely the kind of trap she actually did use, then, right before going to sleep, use an inverted weave to go to another room entirely, possibly somewhere in Rhuidean, and sleep there. That way, if the trap works, and no one gets past it once it has been sprung, fine, no problem. If the trap is not enough, then all the would-be assassin finds is an empty bed.

Appearing to be bait might be a good idea. Being defenseless and available for getting her throat slit was not.
Damn you, you beat me to saying that by 6 minutes.

It's the Horn (or where we think the Horn is) all over again. Or Mat's clothes in Ebou Dar, if an example we know is true is preferred XD
If she had been trapped in the dream she could have the knowledge of her location with 3 others.
  #32  
Old 07-07-2011, 08:59 AM
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Good idea, that.

Alternatively, set up precisely the kind of trap she actually did use, then, right before going to sleep, use an inverted weave to go to another room entirely, possibly somewhere in Rhuidean, and sleep there. That way, if the trap works, and no one gets past it once it has been sprung, fine, no problem. If the trap is not enough, then all the would-be assassin finds is an empty bed.

Appearing to be bait might be a good idea. Being defenseless and available for getting her throat slit was not.
That's the idea I immediately had when I first read about Egwene's "trap". With Travelling available, it really makes no sense to sleep in that room instead of secretly moving to another location and sleeping there.

What good are wards on such a limited area against someone of Forsaken level strength anyway? Mesaana could've just blasted the whole of the Amyrlin's apartment to pieces without triggering the alarms by coming too close.
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:17 AM
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Or she could have poisoned Egwene's porridge.
  #34  
Old 07-07-2011, 10:05 AM
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Or she could have poisoned Egwene's porridge.
If they expect cannons, give them poison needles.
(If they wear plate armour for an expected hail of arrows, use a knife between the plates.)
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:31 AM
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it occurs to me that the traps cadsuane set over what are very probably two of the most dangerous objects in the world weren't particularly strong either. both cadsuane and egwene would have seen their traps rendered useless if the thief/assassin simply sent a lackey first, after setting an inverted ward against sound.

for egwene, i still think it was more about giving gawyn his day in the sun. and i suppose cadsuane's screw up could be about kicking her out of it.

but for egwene-pretending to be bait is one thing, being bait quite another.

for cadsuane-i wonder if, after learning the room, cadsuane could have made a ward that would open a small travelling gateway and push the chest through if the chest was approached by anyone other than her. or the skimming space? can a platform be made without a consciousness?
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Old 07-07-2011, 10:34 AM
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or the skimming space? can a platform be made without a consciousness?
I'm not sure, but even if it is possible, the platform would dissolve quite rapidly. You do need to hold on to it for it to keep solid enough to support any weight.
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:20 AM
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And is this lack of knowledge of warding relevant to humans more prevalent than other areas of AS knowledge?
(Bedtime for me... won't be too active tomorrow either - speed 3D modelling comps on all day)


Edit: That made more sense in my head than out.
Rephrasing. Is the decay of weave knowledge greater in this field than in others of AS knowledge to a level of significance to be considered artificial?

Last edited by Lupusdeusest; 07-07-2011 at 11:22 AM. Reason: my head hurts
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Old 07-07-2011, 11:29 AM
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That is sort of unknown, but the AS (including Egwene) should have assumed that Mesaana knew more about the stuff than they did. After all, she had been a fairly talented Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends, when all sorts of things were standard practice that are now only vaguely remembered myths.
So gambling on just a warding would not seem a sensible approach. Adding a couple of guards with crossbows would have significantly improved matters.
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Old 07-07-2011, 05:13 PM
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However, she did know about the BA, yet she took no precautions against the possibility that there would be anyone else with Mesaana.

She also knew about other forsaken. She really should have taken the best precaution against the fact that all the forsaken and the shadow coming for her. RUN.

For all she knew, Mesaana might not even have taken the bait. Or she could have set a trap, ready to Travel and found she couldn't because of the dreamspike. Knowingly or not, she took the right course of action. And instinct is as much a part of any battle as luck.
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