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  #81  
Old 07-20-2011, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by ArtK View Post
As far as we know, Taim didn't, although there are those interesting extra two chairs. (For Taim and Alviarin?) But I don't believe the masked Chosen had anything to fear regarding Rand discovering him/her. Rand doesn't go into T'A'R any more. And if Taim were exercising his rights as Chosen, why should he find it necessary to hide from Isam?
I don't think Taim is Chosen, and I certainly don't think that the others would stand (or sit) for him sitting amongst them as an equal. He's simply not. And Alviarin is akin to a pet dog to them. Useful, serving a purpose perhaps, but nowhere on par with them. They'd laugh to see her at that meeting. And then kill her.
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  #82  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
I don't think Taim is Chosen, and I certainly don't think that the others would stand (or sit) for him sitting amongst them as an equal. He's simply not. And Alviarin is akin to a pet dog to them. Useful, serving a purpose perhaps, but nowhere on par with them. They'd laugh to see her at that meeting. And then kill her.
Well, if he's not, I doubt he would have been able to command Isam. But I'm not so sure. I recall a discussion a while back about Taim, where I suggested that Be'lal had been replaced into Taim's body. (After a subtle game wherein Ishamael killed him using the TP when he realized Moiraine was about to balefire him.)

As for Alviarin, she was recently "marked" by SH, something more than what a normal DF gets, and this might actually have been the mark of the chosen. AFAIK this info isn't available, unless there was a Q&A I'm not aware of.
  #83  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:21 PM
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As for Alviarin, she was recently "marked" by SH, something more than what a normal DF gets, and this might actually have been the mark of the chosen. AFAIK this info isn't available, unless there was a Q&A I'm not aware of.
There is and it's not. It's basically like a halfway-mark, so she's not quite Chosen but more than Darkfriend (Dreadlord, perhaps?).
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  #84  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:44 PM
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Well, if he's not, I doubt he would have been able to command Isam. But I'm not so sure. I recall a discussion a while back about Taim, where I suggested that Be'lal had been replaced into Taim's body. (After a subtle game wherein Ishamael killed him using the TP when he realized Moiraine was about to balefire him.)

As for Alviarin, she was recently "marked" by SH, something more than what a normal DF gets, and this might actually have been the mark of the chosen. AFAIK this info isn't available, unless there was a Q&A I'm not aware of.
Taim was active in recruiting men who could channel, probably already working for Moridin, prior to Be'lal's egress from the Bore, let alone to his demise. He is not Be'lal. Chronology alone should be enough to demonstrate that, but if not, there is also that vexing issue that Be'lal was erased from existence.

@ Zombie
I'm not sure we should even go so far as to call Alviarin's "mark" as a designation of demi-Chosen status. Pet might be more fitting.
  #85  
Old 07-20-2011, 02:49 PM
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@Kimon - I don't think there's much evidence either way, but I'm inclined to think that there might be gradations of the Dark Lord's favour - Darkfriend, Dreadlord, Chosen, possibly some more rankings in between. Alviarin is certainly more important than any non-Chosen DF alive today.
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  #86  
Old 07-20-2011, 03:05 PM
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@Kimon - I don't think there's much evidence either way, but I'm inclined to think that there might be gradations of the Dark Lord's favour - Darkfriend, Dreadlord, Chosen, possibly some more rankings in between. Alviarin is certainly more important than any non-Chosen DF alive today.
I'll agree that there does seem to be evidence of gradations between random DF grunt and Chosen, but do you honestly set her above Slayer and Taim?
  #87  
Old 07-20-2011, 03:45 PM
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Taim was active in recruiting men who could channel, probably already working for Moridin, prior to Be'lal's egress from the Bore, let alone to his demise. He is not Be'lal. Chronology alone should be enough to demonstrate that, but if not, ...
Says who? Taim? Why should we believe him even if he isn't a darkfriend?

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... there is also that vexing issue that Be'lal was erased from existence.
Well, I haven't found my previous discussion, so I'll repeat it. The scene is at the end of "Dragon Reborn", in the Heart of the Stone. Be'lal had a plan to kill the Dragon Reborn and steal Callandor. Ishamael had very strong reasons to keep Rand alive, and probably no desire to see Callandor in Be'lal's hands. (And remember he was present, up in a dark corner IIRC.)

IMO Ishamael had set up a "trigger" using the TP so he could instantly kill Be'lal if he looked to kill Rand. When Moiraine started to weave Balefire, we hear Be'lal say "No!" just before it hits. Clearly, he and everybody else could sense it before it hit. (IMO Balefire can be sensed before it hits because of its ability to burn stuff out of the Pattern before it's fired.)

Ishamael used his TP "Trigger" to kill Be'lal before the Balefire hit. I see two possible explanations for this:

1. He was on such a hair trigger he responded to the "smell" of balefire too quickly to realize that it wasn't Be'lal who was weaving it.

2. He realized that if Be'lal was thought by everybody to have been killed by Balefire, he would constitute another useful "returnee" to another body, one that nobody would suspect.

Even if number 1 is the actual explanation, he would have realized after the fact that Be'lal would be a wonderful stalking horse, one he could use against the other Chosen.

(And yes, I realize that weakens my argument that Taim wouldn't have disguised himself in Far Madding. But I'm not really that sold on Be'lal as Taim, I just object to ruling it out. Unless you can point to a Q&A?)

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@ Zombie
I'm not sure we should even go so far as to call Alviarin's "mark" as a designation of demi-Chosen status. Pet might be more fitting.
It might well put her on a par with the other "Chosen", and above those with mindtraps. It might be nothing but a minor upgrade of her DF status. Or anything in-between. All we know, AFAIK, is that she was protected from Mesaana's strong desire to kill her (unless she failed).

How about some RJ or BS quotes, or Q&A's?
  #88  
Old 07-20-2011, 04:07 PM
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And it's pronounced Ta-eem. Not Tame. Ta-eem.
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  #89  
Old 07-20-2011, 04:44 PM
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The scene is at the end of "Dragon Reborn", in the Heart of the Stone. Be'lal had a plan to kill the Dragon Reborn and steal Callandor. Ishamael had very strong reasons to keep Rand alive, and probably no desire to see Callandor in Be'lal's hands

Cool idea, I know we have a quote about Rahvin being beyond the DO's grasp due to balefire, but do we have one for Be'lal? Only the DO or Moridin (or RJ and co.) could absolutely confirm this.
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  #90  
Old 07-20-2011, 05:17 PM
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Wait, didn't Rand see the balefire stream connecting? Balefire-related temporal anomalies would trump anything Ishamael did because Be'lal would actually die several seconds before the balefire was generated in the first place.
  #91  
Old 07-20-2011, 05:20 PM
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Says who? Taim? Why should we believe him even if he isn't a darkfriend?



Well, I haven't found my previous discussion, so I'll repeat it. The scene is at the end of "Dragon Reborn", in the Heart of the Stone. Be'lal had a plan to kill the Dragon Reborn and steal Callandor. Ishamael had very strong reasons to keep Rand alive, and probably no desire to see Callandor in Be'lal's hands. (And remember he was present, up in a dark corner IIRC.)

IMO Ishamael had set up a "trigger" using the TP so he could instantly kill Be'lal if he looked to kill Rand. When Moiraine started to weave Balefire, we hear Be'lal say "No!" just before it hits. Clearly, he and everybody else could sense it before it hit. (IMO Balefire can be sensed before it hits because of its ability to burn stuff out of the Pattern before it's fired.)

Ishamael used his TP "Trigger" to kill Be'lal before the Balefire hit. I see two possible explanations for this:

1. He was on such a hair trigger he responded to the "smell" of balefire too quickly to realize that it wasn't Be'lal who was weaving it.

2. He realized that if Be'lal was thought by everybody to have been killed by Balefire, he would constitute another useful "returnee" to another body, one that nobody would suspect.

Even if number 1 is the actual explanation, he would have realized after the fact that Be'lal would be a wonderful stalking horse, one he could use against the other Chosen.

(And yes, I realize that weakens my argument that Taim wouldn't have disguised himself in Far Madding. But I'm not really that sold on Be'lal as Taim, I just object to ruling it out. Unless you can point to a Q&A?)



It might well put her on a par with the other "Chosen", and above those with mindtraps. It might be nothing but a minor upgrade of her DF status. Or anything in-between. All we know, AFAIK, is that she was protected from Mesaana's strong desire to kill her (unless she failed).

How about some RJ or BS quotes, or Q&A's?
So far as a quick check goes, no one thought to ask either of them if Taim was Be'lal. You could always track down BS at some book signing and do so, the answer will likely either be "no" or "what??" or "Felix?".

On a more serious note, think of it this way - if he's Be'lal, explain why he wasn't at the Chosen Socials. The other resurrected Chosen have been, why would Be'lal be brought back and not get an invite?

Here's the actual text:

Quote:
There was an instant of surprise on the Forsaken's face, and he had time to scream "No!" Then a bar of white fire hotter than the sun shot from the Aes Sedai's hands, a glaring rod that banished all shadows. Before it, Be'lal became a shape of shimmering motes, specks dancing in the light for less than a heartbeat, flecks consumed before his cry faded.
Then Moiraine talks, tells Rand to stop hesitating and grab Callandor already, then Ishamael hits her. He did nothing to interfere while she erased Be'lal. He didn't have any trigger to magically save him.

Be'lal is gone. Taim is not Be'lal.
  #92  
Old 07-20-2011, 05:21 PM
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Wait, didn't Rand see the balefire stream connecting? Balefire-related temporal anomalies would trump anything Ishamael did because Be'lal would actually die several seconds before the balefire was generated in the first place.
Not if he was already dead and the BF just destroyed his body. Or would it? If his body vanished but he didn't die, would his "soul" have been there for Ishamael to kill?

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  #93  
Old 07-20-2011, 05:27 PM
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On a more serious note, think of it this way - if he's Be'lal, explain why he wasn't at the Chosen Socials. The other resurrected Chosen have been, why would Be'lal be brought back and not get an invite?
I thought I just did... because he was a "hidden weapon" the DO was saving against an emergency. Assuming he was rescued from balefire at all, I suspect both the DO and Ishamael/Moridin would have wanted to keep his return from death a secret from the other Chosen.
  #94  
Old 07-20-2011, 07:40 PM
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There is no winning with this guy.
Jordan said Alviarin's mark is not one of the chosen, and the mark (or at least the mark alone) does not make her a lesser chosen.

Be'lal even did the 'motes' trick with balefire.

Why not start a new thread to present your aruments? Not following how Min fits in.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:40 PM
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Default Elmindreda Farshaw has absolutely nothing to do with Be'lal

What does Be'lal have to do with Elmindreda Farshaw?



Quote:
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You could always track down BS at some book signing and do so, the answer will likely either be "no" or "what??" or "Felix?".
Huh? Do I read a question in the making?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
On a more serious note, think of it this way - if he's Be'lal, explain why he wasn't at the Chosen Socials. The other resurrected Chosen have been, why would Be'lal be brought back and not get an invite?
Mierin is a Chosen, yet she did not get an invitation. Though Moridin's mindtrapped pet, Cyndane did make an appearance.


Chosen do not trust each other. Moridin does not like to give out information, either. Only time Moridin does, is if other events might effect his large plans.

Shaidar Haran kept Osan'gar and Aran'gar each a secret for some period time. Even Moridin kept his new identity & body a secret from the other Chosen, and Rand al'Thor for as long as possible.

If Be'lal is back again, in a new body... Moridin or Shaidar Haran could have put him on a secret task elsewhere.
Did someone needed to ferry Shadowspawn to the Blight? Be'lal the Netweaver of Ferries?
  #96  
Old 07-21-2011, 12:46 PM
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DUDE. If Felix is trying to get you back on topic, you have significant problems. Just sayin.'
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