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  #1  
Old 08-11-2011, 12:11 AM
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Thumbs up I like old interviews

Cause they get so fun.

Quote:
November 2nd, 2009, Wired Magazine.

GD: Anyone who knows the books at all knows that Rand alíThor hears the voice of Lews Therin in his head-sometimes cackling like a madman, other times more helpfully. After wading through all of Robert Jordanís notes, and listening to those dictated comments, do you have a new sympathy for Rand?

BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because Iíd been told that ďRand will go mad, Rand will go mad,Ē but I didnít accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Randís head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that heíd promised: ďNo, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, heís seeing part of his past life, but heís going insane. Itís the immense pressure thatís doing this.Ē In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, itís hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.

Robert Jordan once said in an interview, when someone tried to get him to boil down the series to its core-he first said, you canít boil down this series. I wrote it as long as I did because thatís how long I needed to tell the story, and so boiling it down doesnít work. But he finally did say this: At itís essence, this series is about what itís like to be told that you need to save the world, and that itís probably going to cost your life. Even all of the other characters, you could say that that is a theme for them, too. Egwene has had to give up the life that sheíd assumed that she was going to live, and to adopt this other life in the name of the greater good. And thatís happening to everybody. Kings and queens are being cast down, and people who thought that their lives were just going to be normal and stable, and thatís all they really wanted, are being forced to take upon themselves these mantles of responsibility. And Rand is at the very heart of that. Rand is the center, the example for all of them of what theyíre having to go through, and itís the worst for him.
Anyway, I'll just be wandering on along.

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  #2  
Old 08-11-2011, 12:17 AM
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Thanks to Marie for digging this one up. I bet Brandon has been scared all this time we'd find it. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Isa saw it before and didn't tell anyone. I tweeted about it, and Brandon hasn't commented beyond saying this. At which point Luckers assured him that he hadn't actually confirmed anything. Ha! So we argued back and forth a bit including Brandon in our tweets. But I imagine that the pool of diehard real'ers has to get much smaller at this point. Even Luckers is not really a real'er; he's just a semantic champion. But Brandon says clearly that RJ's notes indicated that the voice was a delusion caused by madness.
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  #3  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
BS: Robert Jordan dropped a bomb at the end of Knife of Dreams, with what Semirhage was saying about or to Rand, talking about his level of stability. I remember as a reader, going through as a kid-I think Robert Jordan blindsided me with Lews Therin, because I’d been told that “Rand will go mad, Rand will go mad,” but I didn’t accept that voice as Rand going mad. I accepted that as another person, inside of Rand’s head, and not a delusion or anything like that. Across the course of the books, Robert Jordan brought together this thing that he’d promised: “No, look, this guy is just going crazy. Yes, he’s seeing part of his past life, but he’s going insane. It’s the immense pressure that’s doing this.” In looking through the notes, and seeing what Rand has to go through, it’s hard not to sympathize with the poor guy.
Let's dissect this quote:Brandon is refering to a quote by Semirhage:

Quote:
He’s insane. Graendal could explain it better than I. Madness was her specialty. I will try, however. You know of people who hear voices in their heads? Sometimes, very rarely, the voices they hear are the voices of past lives. Lanfear claimed he knew things from our own Age, things only Lews Therin could know. Clearly he is hearing Lews Therin’s voice.
It makes no difference that this voice is real, however.Even Graendal usually failed to achieve reintegration with someone who heard a real voice. I understand the descent into terminal madness can be abrupt.
(KoD, a plain wooden box, Semirhage, p 592)
Semirhage said that Rand is insane, but still hearing a real voice. So no that doens't mean that Brandon confirmed the construct theory here.
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  #4  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:55 AM
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Yes, actually, it does. One thing I've tried to stress to you real'ers before is that the word 'real' does not mean what you think it does in that context. Brandon is the proof of that - he didn't have the history with the fandom and the debate and all the connotations that were ascribed to the word 'real', and as a fan, he read the Semirhage passage in a completely different way than you did. He realized that Semirhage was saying that Rand heard the voice because he was insane. Specifically, he realized that the voice was a delusion. And this was in the notes. So you can't try to reconstruct what Brandon said based on your faulty assumptions. His meaning is clear. If he meant what you thought, then the passage would make no sense at all, because Semirhage would have been confirming his previous assumptions.
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  #5  
Old 08-11-2011, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isabel
So no that doens't mean that Brandon confirmed the construct theory here
Confirmed? Perhaps not.

Strongly, strongly implied? I'll let you answer that one with your own rational judgement...
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  #6  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:32 AM
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Brandon sent a response to Luckers, not sure through which medium (I was expecting a hedge post, so this comes as no surprise):

Quote:
I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet.
And this is my response to Luckers on Dragonmount:

Quote:
It was expected, actually. His wording is even further confirmation, and follows on a point I just made to Isa at Theoryland. (He won't lie, so things like 'Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes' are huge red flashing arrows.) Clearly, his views shifted when reading the Semirhage passage, which confirms that he didn't read into the word 'real' in the same way that the real'ers did at all...and he wouldn't have spoken about it in that way if the notes had contradicted his feelings.
Brandon can't dance around this one, no matter how hard he tries.
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  #7  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, actually, it does. One thing I've tried to stress to you real'ers before is that the word 'real' does not mean what you think it does in that context. Brandon is the proof of that - he didn't have the history with the fandom and the debate and all the connotations that were ascribed to the word 'real', and as a fan, he read the Semirhage passage in a completely different way than you did. He realized that Semirhage was saying that Rand heard the voice because he was insane. Specifically, he realized that the voice was a delusion. And this was in the notes. So you can't try to reconstruct what Brandon said based on your faulty assumptions. His meaning is clear. If he meant what you thought, then the passage would make no sense at all, because Semirhage would have been confirming his previous assumptions.
Nope, the voice can be real and it can still mean Rand is insane.

Brandon hasn't confirmed any of the theories, so you can't claim victory, however you want it.
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  #8  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:39 AM
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Ah, but I can, and I do. The delusional few (or two) don't change the facts and the logic.
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  #9  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:45 AM
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I asked Brandon about this, and here was his reply.

Quote:
James,

Feel free to post this response from me.

"I stand by everything I said in those interviews; I did not make any miss-steps. However, there is one big misinterpretation. Terez says that I was asked by Team Jordan to be more secretive. That's not the case. There was one time when Harriet asked me to be more secretive, but that was in regards to spoilers about TofM when I was working on it, and she felt (rightly) that I was hinting about too many things that would come in the book.

I have not settled, and do not intend to settle, this debate except in regard to the things placed specifically in the books. The Geekdad interview response is primarily talking about my own reactions as a reader the first time I read specific scenes, long before I saw what was in the notes. At that point, as a fan, my view of the books shifted.

Those views may have shifted again while looking at the notes. I have not said, and will continue not to say, what was in them on this point. There are clues in the text. That is always the way it has been, and I think that is sufficient for this conversation. However, I can explicitly say there was no "Team Jordan order of silence" on this particular point. In fact, there have been few (or none) of those except in regards to spoiling surprises for the books not yet in print. I prefer to keep it that way, which is why I generally ask interviewers to run my interviews past Team Jordan for clarification, and so that they know what I'm saying and can steer me if I do happen to stray into areas best left quiet."

Best,

Brandon
I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate, since nor do I.

Nor do I reguard it to have particularily shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory (the Real Madness Theory), actually requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.

You Constructionists don't own madness or delusion, you know. It's presence doesn't lend weight to your argument--Semirhage was quite clear. That the manifestationd of a past life voice is real means nothing. The descent to terminal insanity occurs just the same.



Oh, and Terez, it was via email.

Last edited by Luckers; 08-11-2011 at 02:52 AM.
  #10  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luckers View Post
I'm fine with the fact that Brandon does not reguard his comments to have settled this debate, since nor do I.
LOL. What did you expect him to say? "Oh, my bad...yeah, I accidentally confirmed construct theory."

Quote:
Nor do I reguard it to have particularily shaded the argument. Brandon thought the manifestation of Lews Therin was completely unrelated to madness when he was a fan, the notes changed that but he will not say how. Since my theory (the Real Madness Theory), actually requires that the voice be the result of the taint and the basis of Rand's mental instability, I'm good with that.
Again, he also changed his opinion on whether or not the voice was a delusion. Obviously, Semirhage convinced him that it was...and obviously, the notes confirmed that impression or he wouldn't have spoken about it in the interview in the way that he did.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:56 AM
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Yes... obviously...

*rolls eyes*
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:04 AM
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I don't care what Brandon or anyone ever says, I'm still sticking by my opinion I had when first reading through the books. Rand, knowing he was the Dragon Reborn, began going mad and heard voices based on the madness. At the same time though, he was remembering memories of Lews Therin. So that combined with his madness created the imaginary voice and which is then further confirmed at the ending of TGS saying that they had never been two people because they weren't... Just Rand the whole time.
  #13  
Old 08-11-2011, 05:26 AM
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Southpaw, that is exactly my reading of it. You can even, on a re-read, determine the point at which he started repressing the memories and subconsciously creating the LTT personality (it was during TSR and TFOH). Rand starts having AOL memories, he doesn't like them, he represses them, and then LTT appears; later, he experiences an epiphany at Dragonmount and accepts the memories and personality, becoming one. That's all there is to it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:57 AM
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it kinda does seem to confirm the construct theory.

In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!

One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
it kinda does seem to confirm the construct theory.

In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!

One quick question, since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...
Probably because it's rather clearly and explicitly stated in the books. He's RAFO'd questions the answers to which can be found on a careful reading before.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:11 AM
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I never knew that this was even a real issue. I mean, I knew RJ would RAFO it, and I've heard it is not something to expect an answer on, but I never really thought anyone doubted that Rand was nuts.
(Hey Terez, something we agree on!)

Actually, some of Rand's odder moments remind me of what it's like right before a seizure.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
since this is hardly likely to play a major part of aMoL why wouldn't brandon just confirm it either way? It just seems needless to keep this going...
I always wondered if RJ never clearly stated it in the notes. Definitively anyway.

EDIT: and let me say, I do agree it is a construct and I think most of the notes and last couple of books have confirmed that. What I am saying is a five or six word sentence in the notes. Lews Therin's voice is a construct.

EDIT 2: Hi C. Miss ya round here
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The delusional few (or two) don't change the facts and the logic.
This is actually the only part I wholeheartly agree with, Terez.

"You never escape the traps you spin yourself"

That goes for both you and Lews Therin.
One has to admire the irony.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Daekyras View Post
In fact, denying it may be as bad as denying who killed asmodean at this point!
Burn my soul, you may as well claim that Verin Sedai abandoned the Lord Dragon in Tear to bring the Borderlander armies to heel.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:35 PM
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Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mik View Post
This is actually the only part I wholeheartly agree with, Terez.

"You never escape the traps you spin yourself"

That goes for both you and Lews Therin.
One has to admire the irony.
In case anyone is wondering, Mik is in denial because he has a theory that Lews Therin Mindtrapped himself, and he's sticking to it.
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