art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7611

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > THEORYLAND STEDDINGS > Forum Archives > Archived - WoT Discussion Boards > Archived: General Wheel of Time Discussion - 05/2008 - 03/2012
User Name
Password

 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 08-30-2011, 05:26 AM
Enigma Enigma is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,064
Enigma will become famous soon enoughEnigma will become famous soon enough
Default

The BWB is written as if authoried by an Aes Sedai with fragmented records so there can be some parts of it spot on, some nearly right and some completly false.

Leaving that aside I seem to recall that Graendal's suggen personality change was commented on by one of the forksaken when remembering the AoL. I think it was one of their meetings. I don't have the books right in front of me but it could have been one of the times Sammael met her and played her.
__________________
Everyone has a right to my opinion
  #22  
Old 08-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Juan's Avatar
Juan Juan is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 984
Juan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud of
Default

Graendal seems like she'd be amazing in bed. Really.

On a more serious note, I thought Graendal using the dove to spy on Rand before he balescreamed her tidy little fortress was pretty cool. I don't recall that ability even being mentioned in the series before. It seems like a pretty useful ability when it comes to spying. I expect people like Moghy and Mesana and Graendal would be the Forsaken who could put that to use most effectively.

That does lead me to wonder if there's a way to detect someone doing that. Rand had no clue when she did it to him.
__________________
I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

I went to a garage sale. "How much for the garage?" "It's not for sale."
  #23  
Old 08-30-2011, 04:45 PM
Enigma Enigma is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,064
Enigma will become famous soon enoughEnigma will become famous soon enough
Default

From the brief exposure we had in that scene it appears that this is an ability that can only be gained by using the True Power, or at least no one has figured out how to use the One Power to see/hear/contrl a bird. One of the big bonus points about using the True Power is that no one except the Dark One can feel what you are doing.
__________________
Everyone has a right to my opinion
  #24  
Old 08-30-2011, 09:09 PM
Oneirist's Avatar
Oneirist Oneirist is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 46
Oneirist is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
This is nothing more than an idle thought, with little evidence one way or the other, but does anyone else think Graendal's sudden switch from ascetic to hedonist might have come about because she was turned to the Shadow forcible, with a circle of 13 channelling through Myrddraal? We have little evidence of the behaviour of turned people, but we do know that all the good parts of their personality are repressed:



It also appears that the 13x13 turning trick was known before the Trolloc Wars:

(emphasis mine)

All in all, Graendal's personality shift - and the fact that the dating for discovery of the trick would appear to be during the War of the Power - makes me think there is a reasonable chance she might have actually been turned.
Graendal was one of the first to swear to the Shadow long before the actual War of Power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Mmmmmm....

Except for the fact that her 180 change happened gradually, over about 10 years. It wasn't overnight. How do we explain that?

Also, for the little that it's worth the BWB does clearly state that the change in her lifestyle/ personality wasn't linked to her turning to the Shadow...
During the Collapse, certain negative characteristics were supposed to have been expanded upon because of the Dark One's influence. Kamarile Maradim Nindar was always supposed to have been something of a narcissistic perfectionist -- perhaps that, in conjunction with the overall degradation of society, gave her a good nudge to the Dark Side?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
The plan to keep the various factions divided and at each other's throats was great but she took her eye off the ball. Using her forged orders Ituralde was able to unite a large portion of Arad Doman's military strenght to hold back the Seanchan who at the time were more of less under the control of Suroth (a darkfriend) and Semirhage. It was just by good fortune for her that Tuon took care of Suroth and Rand dealt with Semirhage. At the time the General was doing his thing he was effectivly keeping a Shadow proxy from his nation.

Then he turns around and because Graendal has completly cut him loose, and is scooped up by Rand and help hold off a massive invasion from the blight inflicting some considerable casualties on the Shadow army. If Ituralde had not been there the Shadowspawn would have free range of Saladea and be heading south as fast as they could run.

Put it another way I think Granedal is great at spreading chaos and controling small groups but when it comes to large groups that she is trying to direct as opposed to scatter etc, thats where she runs into problems because as Mat said no plan survives contact with the enemy. She set plots in motion but was then distracted and not around to keep them on course.
Shadow proxy or not, the Seanchan would've restored order to Arad Doman, the same as they did with Tarabon. Arad Doman was in tatters because of Graendal, with nearly everyone a starving refugee. Ituralde was operating inadvertantly under her orders, and although she didn't anticipate his success, so long as the Seanchan didn't establish order in her territory she seemed to be content. Chaos was her goal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
The BWB is written as if authoried by an Aes Sedai with fragmented records so there can be some parts of it spot on, some nearly right and some completly false.

Leaving that aside I seem to recall that Graendal's suggen personality change was commented on by one of the forksaken when remembering the AoL. I think it was one of their meetings. I don't have the books right in front of me but it could have been one of the times Sammael met her and played her.
It was Sammael in LoC. He mentions how it seemed "as if she had deliberately become the opposite of everything she had been before."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
On a more serious note, I thought Graendal using the dove to spy on Rand before he balescreamed her tidy little fortress was pretty cool. I don't recall that ability even being mentioned in the series before. It seems like a pretty useful ability when it comes to spying. I expect people like Moghy and Mesana and Graendal would be the Forsaken who could put that to use most effectively.

That does lead me to wonder if there's a way to detect someone doing that. Rand had no clue when she did it to him.
I wonder if it could be used on another human?
  #25  
Old 08-31-2011, 05:56 AM
Enigma Enigma is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,064
Enigma will become famous soon enoughEnigma will become famous soon enough
Default

That's a good point about the Seanchan bringing order even if they did have darkfriends holding the reins of power. Perhaps that was part of the good she did by accident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneirist View Post
I wonder if it could be used on another human?
I doubt it. Humans are a lot more complex that simple birds plus it would be so useful that if it could have been done surely it would have been done before now.

Then again what about the messanger Sammael sent to Rand with the offer of truce?
__________________
Everyone has a right to my opinion
  #26  
Old 08-31-2011, 07:15 AM
Toss the dice Toss the dice is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 609
Toss the dice is a glorious beacon of lightToss the dice is a glorious beacon of lightToss the dice is a glorious beacon of lightToss the dice is a glorious beacon of lightToss the dice is a glorious beacon of lightToss the dice is a glorious beacon of lightToss the dice is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
Then again what about the messanger Sammael sent to Rand with the offer of truce?
That's possible but I would guess it's a completely separate weave. Where Sammael received a proverbial "alarm" or notice when the messenger was given his answer, along with another when he died. Or something similar.
__________________
"You see, it doesn't work on me. Now you bloody well release the shields, or I'll bloody well haul you out of the saddle and paddle your bottoms."
  #27  
Old 08-31-2011, 03:21 PM
Oneirist's Avatar
Oneirist Oneirist is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 46
Oneirist is an unknown quantity at this point
Default

Then again, it's apparently been possible to do that trick with a rat or raven this whole time and we've only just heard about it. Maybe that's how the Grey Men are controlled?
  #28  
Old 08-31-2011, 04:35 PM
the_collective the_collective is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 141
the_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oneirist View Post
I wonder if it could be used on another human?
I wish I had the quote, but at the end of TEotW, after Fain is caught snooping around in Fal Dara and Moiraine has her first tete-a-tete with him in the dungeons, she comes back up to join the group and relay what she has learned.

In her account of what Fain said, when Fain was driven to the Waygate in Caemlyn to continue following the group, he says something like he watched his hands move of their own accord in order to activate the Waygate. He mentions a complete inability to control his own body and he's watching himself do things he doesn't know how to do, plus it was very very painful for him to try to resist.

Anyway, it seems to me like this is an example of a human being used in the same way (by Ishamael, in my opinion) that the bird was being used by Graendal in TGS.
__________________
Fun with out-of-context-canon!!:

"Egwene had told him she had murdered children...Too horrible for anyone to admit to unless it was true." [TGH: Chapter 46, Rand PoV]
  #29  
Old 08-31-2011, 04:38 PM
Juan's Avatar
Juan Juan is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 984
Juan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud ofJuan has much to be proud of
Default

The more intelligent the animal, the harder it is to control. If Graendal had such a hard time with a dove, I doubt shed be able to with a mammal, much less a human, the most complex and intelligent of animals.
__________________
I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

I went to a garage sale. "How much for the garage?" "It's not for sale."
  #30  
Old 08-31-2011, 04:48 PM
the_collective the_collective is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 141
the_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud of
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Juan View Post
The more intelligent the animal, the harder it is to control. If Graendal had such a hard time with a dove, I doubt shed be able to with a mammal, much less a human, the most complex and intelligent of animals.
Well, assuming there's any credence to the notion that creatures such as "ravens" or "rats" are somehow "tied" to the Dark One in some way, we can probably assume that a dove is NOT a creature easily controlled by the Dark One or his associates, while someone that has been to Shayol Ghul to make certain promises to the Dark One's face (such as Fain) might have a metaphysical conduit standing ready for advantage to be taken of it.
__________________
Fun with out-of-context-canon!!:

"Egwene had told him she had murdered children...Too horrible for anyone to admit to unless it was true." [TGH: Chapter 46, Rand PoV]
  #31  
Old 09-01-2011, 03:43 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,820
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEOTW, Chapter 47, More Tales of the Wheel
"If Fain was half mad by the time he reached Caemlyn, he sank even further when he realized that only two of those he sought were there. He was compelled to find all of you, but he could do no other than follow the two who were there, either. He spoke of screaming when the Waygate opened in Caemlyn. The knowledge of how to do it was in his mind; he does not know how it came there; his hands moved of their own accord, burning with the fires of Ba'alzamon when he tried to stop them. The owner of the shop, who came to investigate the noise, Fain murdered. Not because he had to, but out of envy that the man could walk freely out of the cellar while his feet carried him inexorably into the Ways."
  #32  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:50 AM
maacaroni maacaroni is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Worcester, UK
Posts: 339
maacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant futuremaacaroni has a brilliant future
Default

I think her relative success is a matter of opinion. On the grand scale, she 'let the lord of chaos' rule more than most. But she also directly and indirectly caused the death of three other chosen...now one could argue that this was Shai'tan's ultimate aim - selfishness - to it's ultimate conclusion, but you can't help thinking that by removing three players from the game it reduced the Dark One's options.

I think she failed most in her direct attacks to the Wunderkids.

What I always found hardest was any mythological allusions from her name. Graendel is based on the Grendel from Beowulf...but that's about it.

As for her reasons for turning to the shadow, she basically abandoned every aspect of her old life, for asceticism read hedonism, for mental health read compulsion. She saw the battle as hopeless so joined the winning team in heart and in soul.
  #33  
Old 09-01-2011, 05:39 PM
the_collective the_collective is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 141
the_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud ofthe_collective has much to be proud of
Default Thanks!!

Thank you Gonzo for providing that quote. It does illustrate my point as intended.
__________________
Fun with out-of-context-canon!!:

"Egwene had told him she had murdered children...Too horrible for anyone to admit to unless it was true." [TGH: Chapter 46, Rand PoV]
  #34  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:11 PM
WinespringBrother's Avatar
WinespringBrother WinespringBrother is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,889
WinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant futureWinespringBrother has a brilliant future
Send a message via AIM to WinespringBrother
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_collective View Post
Well, assuming there's any credence to the notion that creatures such as "ravens" or "rats" are somehow "tied" to the Dark One in some way, we can probably assume that a dove is NOT a creature easily controlled by the Dark One or his associates, while someone that has been to Shayol Ghul to make certain promises to the Dark One's face (such as Fain) might have a metaphysical conduit standing ready for advantage to be taken of it.
There is also the possibility that Fain had post-hypnotic suggestions standing by, just as Bors did:

Quote:
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 15 - Insects
Suddenly he felt as though a knotted rope had been fastened around his head and was being drawn ever tighter. For an instant a race hidden behind a red mask filled his vision. Night-dark eyes stared at him, and then were endless caverns of flame, and still staring. Within his head, the world exploded in fire, cascading images that battered him and swept him beyond screaming. The forms of three young men stood unsupported in air, and one of them began to glow, the form of the man in the street, brighter and brighter till it must have seared any living eyes to ash, brighter still, burning. A curled golden horn sped toward him, its cry pulling his soul, then flashed into a ring of golden light, swallowing him, chilling him until the last fragment of him that recalled his name was sure his bones must splinter. A ruby-tipped dagger hurdled straight at him, curved blade striking him between the eyes and sinking in, in, until gold-wrapped hilt and all was gone, and he knew agony that washed away all thought that what had gone before was pain. He would have prayed to a Creator he had long abandoned if he remembered how. He would have shrieked if he remembered how, if he remembered that humans shrieked, that he was human. On and on, more and more....
__________________
Mera'Daghain M'hael

"Oh, y'all [Theorylanders] are awesome with awesome sauce, but you ask a lot of tricky questions. I had to watch myself with you guys." - Maria

"I need to RAFO more things, I'm not being very Robert Jordan..." - Brandon
 

Tags
character of the week, cotw, graendal


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.