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  #41  
Old 08-16-2011, 04:33 PM
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I'm not saying it was the right choice but at the risk of turning this into an Egwene thread the way Egwenen sees the world is as follows:

1 The Aes Sedai are the only transnational group that can look at the big picture as opposed to other groups that follow more limited national interest. As they alone can see the big picture they are key to the light having any hope of winning.

2 None of the rest of the AS see Rand as a person, they see hm as a dangerous eratic creature that must be controled. Egwene wants to do what is right but also honestly believes that she is the best suited to deal with Rand and take him in hand.

3 To be in a position to take Rand's hand and lead him in the right direction and be the buffer between him and the rest of the AS she has to be in charge.

4 To be in charge and given any authority and respect she has to be able to solve the problems herslef and not go running for help.


Put it another way, what do you think would be the reaction in the US if President Obama asked the German Chancelor to come over to Washington and run the US government for a while seeing as the German economy is in a lot better shape that the US?
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  #42  
Old 08-16-2011, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
1 The Aes Sedai are the only transnational group that can look at the big picture as opposed to other groups that follow more limited national interest. As they alone can see the big picture they are key to the light having any hope of winning.
Maybe they could, but they don't. Instead, they look to the limited interests of the White Tower.
That is actually my main criticism of almost all AS. There are a few exceptions (Moiraine, Siuan perhaps, Verin, maybe Cadsuane), but on the whole, AS look out for AS.

Quote:
Put it another way, what do you think would be the reaction in the US if President Obama asked the German Chancelor to come over to Washington and run the US government for a while seeing as the German economy is in a lot better shape that the US?
Let's look at it a bit more realistically, shall we?
How hard would the Republican Party object if Obama got Jesus to take over for a while?

That is the correct analogy, not Egwene stepping aside for Weiramon, as you're suggesting.
And, as you can probably figure out, I expect the Republicans (yeah, even the Tea Party) to be more rational than the average AS is. Caveat: this is not in any way, shape or form intended as a compliment for right wing Americans.
  #43  
Old 08-16-2011, 05:06 PM
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As an aside, I'm wondering why Moghedien didn't get help from any Black Ajah members. She should have been able to recruit them fairly easily.
  #44  
Old 08-16-2011, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Let's look at it a bit more realistically, shall we?
How hard would the Republican Party object if Obama got Jesus to take over for a while?

That is the correct analogy, not Egwene stepping aside for Weiramon, as you're suggesting.
And, as you can probably figure out, I expect the Republicans (yeah, even the Tea Party) to be more rational than the average AS is. Caveat: this is not in any way, shape or form intended as a compliment for right wing Americans.
First, I wonder how much the Left would object to that arrangement.

Second, is there a parallel going Left-ways? How hard would the Democratic Party object if Obama got _______ to take over for a while?

Hopefully Egwene will think of the grand scheme rather than just the White Tower when it comes to negotiations over breaking the seals, preparing for TG, and "dealing" with male channelers. Stubborn woolhead. I think she will be taken down a notch.

Are there any Forsaken incognito at FoM? Seems like something Mogi would like to peek in on.
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  #45  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:10 PM
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Are there any Forsaken incognito at FoM?
Egwene invited Demandred, but he decided not to come.
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  #46  
Old 08-16-2011, 07:01 PM
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Default Berylla Naron = Malena Aylar?

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Originally Posted by sleepinghour View Post
And we still don't know what Moghedien ordered the remaining three Black sisters in Liandrin's group (Jeaine Caide, Rianna Andomeran, Berylla Naron) to do. They haven't been seen or heard of since TFoH.
I'd like to propose that we may have a hint at what Berylla Naron may be up to (admittedly, it's a tenuous possible-hint).

First of all, in TFoH, Chapter 18 (Liandrin PoV), we have the only physical description of Berylla available in all the books: she is "lean, to the point of being scrawny." She's also noted to be "a manipulator and planner" in the same PoV.

Now I'd like to direct your attention to TGH, Chapter 23, in which Nynaeve enters the testing ter'angreal. In the second of the three rings ("for what is"), Nynaeve ends up in a simulated Emond's Field which is suffering in her absence. The village has been plagued for weeks by a series of unfortunate events starting from the moment 'Malena Aylar' showed up from Watch Hill to relieve Mavra Mallen (whom Nynaeve had appointed as Wisdom in her stead) as Wisdom of Emond's Field. Without going into detail, she poisons several that speak against her (including Bran al'Vere and Haral Luhhan - both very upstanding men), condemning them for Darkfriends and bullies everyone that has a thought to question her motives and/or actions. Toward the end of this little scene-within-a-scene, Malena herself shows up on-screen and she is described thusly: "a tall, scrawny woman..." and then: "Bony as she was, she had a look of wiry strength, and a set, determined slash of a mouth."

As an aside: I've been rereading; I'm only on TGH so far and I just came across this scene yesterday. At first, I thought that maybe this woman bore some physical resemblance to Semirhage, but the modus operandi is not at all the same. For Berylla, the physical description AND modus operandi match (such as it is). So that got me thinking...

Obviously this exact scenario never went down. Emond's Field acquired Daise Congar as their Wisdom instead, and the village was never beset by the Shadow to such a substantial degree as Nynaeve had feared (at this point in the story, anyway). I'm not suggesting that this scene is a prescient look into Nynaeve's future as presented, but rather that there just might be a kernel or two of truth in the scene.

For instance, there is one fact that is true about this scene that Nynaeve could not possibly have consciously known: Tam al'Thor and Abell Cauthon are conspicuously absent of any mention at all. If one looks at the timing of this scene in the grand chronology of the books, the 'real world' reason for this would be that those two gentleman are on their way to Tar Valon, but Nynaeve could not know this. I assert the conjecture that those two men are NOT present in Emond's Field during this scene, not because we were told so specifically (we weren't), but because of the complete absence of any mention of either man. I also assert that this conspicuous absence is a product of the ter'angreal knowing enough of the 'present-day' Pattern (and all the threads therein) to include their absence.

That is - had either man actually been in this fictional Emond's Field, the events described in this fictional scene would have either transpired differently OR would have included them by name as people that had attempted to stand up to this woman and paid for it in some way (just as Bran al'Vere and Haral Luhhan tried to). Therefore, I propose that they were certainly not in this fictional Emonds' Field, they were presumably on their way to the fictional Tar Valon.

So, if you're still with me (and I know that some of you are most definitely NOT with me), I'm suggesting by this omission that the ter'angreal is somehow using actual fact from the actual Pattern (as opposed to that which can be contrived using only Nynaeve's memories/experiences).

To further illustrate, I refer you just a few pages prior (same chapter, the first time she enters the ter'angreal "for what was") to another great example of this ter'angreal taking and using actual FACT from the Pattern completely independent of any preconceived notion of Nynaeve's conscious/subconscious mind:

In this scene, Nynaeve is battling Aginor in a maze of some kind and on two separate occasions during this fight, Nynaeve is capable of not only feeling, but redirecting Aginor's flows of saidin, which is impossible. Nynaeve doesn't know this, of course, but apparently this fictional ter'angreal-created Aginor does:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RJ
The Great Hunt: Chapter 23, The Testing

Abruptly there were clouds in the sky, threatening billows of gray and black. Lightning leaped from the cloud, straight for Nynaeve's heart.

It seemed to her, just for a heartbeat, as if time had suddenly slowed, as thought that heartbeat took forever. She felt the flow inside her - saidar, came a distant thought - felt the answering flow in the lightning. And she altered the direction of the flow. Time leaped forward.

With a crash, the bolt shattered stone above Aginor's head. The Forsaken's sunken eyes widened, and he tottered back. "You cannot! It cannot be!" He leaped away as lightning struck where he had stood, stone erupting in a fountain of shards.
Now, I'll finally get back to my original point. If we can accept the possibility that this ter'angreal does somehow access actual factual information about how the Pattern works independent of the knowledge possessed by a given candidate, it seems possible that we may be able to infer the intent/actions of a given member of the Pattern based on what we see here.

I put forward that the description of Berylla Naron (scant though it may be) matches that of the fictional Malena Aylar (it's important to note that this name is never mentioned anywhere again, implying that either this person is completely a figment of Nynaeve's imagination - which, if true, is the only time an imaginary person shows up in this ter'angreal the we know of - OR the name Malena Aylar is a psuedonym for an individual known by the Pattern. Of course, it's possible that such a Darkriend exists by that name in Watch Hill and hasn't been mentioned ever in the series, but I'm personally not buying that) from Nynaeve's trip into the second ring ("for what is") and that we might be able to use some information from this scene to determine the present-day whereabouts of this Moghedien-controlled Black Ajah Aes Sedai.

As I continue my reread, I'll keep an eye out to see if I can offer more information on the subject.
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  #47  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Egwene invited Demandred, but he decided not to come.
hahahaha iiiiii know what you're referring to
  #48  
Old 08-17-2011, 01:21 AM
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No doubt loyal King Roedran has good reason to refuse the invitation to Merrilor.

Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear the loyal king has gathered for war and is even now leading an army to aid those fighting in Caemlyn.

But the loyalty of those mercenary armies besieging Caemlyn is . . . questionable. The loyal King Roedran best destroy all the mercenary armies caught outside the City walls.
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Old 08-17-2011, 06:25 PM
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No doubt loyal King Roedran has good reason to refuse the invitation to Merrilor.
Burn my thread posting, King Roedran is needs more acres.


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Originally Posted by Weiramon View Post
Burn my soul, it would not be a surprise to hear the loyal king has gathered for war and is even now leading an army to aid those fighting in Caemlyn.
Burn the hand that takes freely offered aid, King Roedran is only loyal to himself. Bloody hell, that foreigner has even made an alliance with the Seanchan Empire!


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Originally Posted by Weiramon View Post
But the loyalty of those mercenary armies besieging Caemlyn is . . . questionable. The loyal King Roedran best destroy all the mercenary armies caught outside the City walls.
As in the Band of Red Hand? Lord Aedmun of the House of Matherin?

Tsk. Tsk.

Every reader knows Lord Aedmun's men are loyal to Queen Elayne of Andor. Snow delayed their arrival to Caemlyn, as Elayne's point of view acknowledge's. See 'Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 10'.


Shadow on Weiramon's mind still? Jealous of Talmanes position? Perhaps not... just misinformed?


Hasn't Weiramon ever wondered why the Sky and Land are an utter mess as of ToM book?
Quote:
'but the Dragon . . . the Dragon is one with the land, and the land is one with the Dragon. (TEOTW, Ch. 34 "The Last Village")
Where was the Dragon last known destination? Murandy.


Me thinks, Weiramon needs to find a Red Apple... a Cape like Anaiyella's.

Imagine Weiramon's calves popping out of his spotless silver boots... fit for a ball... on a gelding.
  #50  
Old 08-17-2011, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Where was the Dragon last known destination? Murandy.

Burn my soul, there were stories of a travelling show that disappeared while heading to Murandy, being pursued by a bloodthirsty creature from legend.
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  #51  
Old 09-15-2011, 10:26 AM
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I'm now almost at the end of FoH in my re-read and here's one thing not yet mentioned for Moghedien:

In chapter 48, the Seal to the DO's prison is still giving out an evil vibe:
Quote:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 48 - Leavetakings.
She was only trying to avoid the washleather purse stuffed right to the back, and she knew it, yet there was not a hair’s difference for ugliness between the purse and the thought of losing to Moghedien again. Drawing a deep breath, she gingerly reached, in and took it up by the drawstrings, and knew she had been wrong. Evil seemed to bathe her hand, stronger than ever, as if the Dark One really was trying to break through the cuendillar seal inside. Better to dwell all day on defeat by Moghedien; there was a world of difference between thought and reality. It had to be imagination-there had been no such feeling in Tanchico-but she wished she could let Elayne carry that, too. Or leave it there.
On the same day, they meet Marigan and bring her with in a group of refugees from Samara:

Quote:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 49 - To Boannda
Marigan, a few years older, had been plump once, but her frayed brown dress hung on her loosely now, and her blunt face looked beyond weary. Her two sons, six and seven, stared silently at the world with too-big eyes; clinging to each other, they seemed frightened of everything and everyone else, even their own mother. Marigan had dealt in cures and herbs in Samara, though she had some odd ideas about both. That was no wonder, really; a woman who offered healing with Amadicia and Whitecloaks right across the river had to keep low, and even from the first she had had to teach herself. All she had ever wanted to do was cure sickness, and she claimed to have done it well, though she had not been able to save her husband. The five years since his death had been hard, and the coming of the Prophet had certainly not helped her any. Mobs searching for Aes Sedai chased her into hiding after she had cured a man of fever and rumor had turned it into bringing him back from the dead. That was how little most people knew of Aes Sedai; death was, beyond the power to Heal. Even Marigan seemed to think it was not. She did not know where she was going any more than Nicola. A village somewhere, she hoped, where she could dispense herbs again in peace.
they spend 3 days on the way to Boannda and a few more days on the way to Salidar. When they reach Salidar, the Seal is broken:

Quote:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn
Beonin had not said a word since the shield of saidar was lowered, but as Nynaeve and Elayne made their curtsies, the Gray sister rose and strode to the table where their things were laid out. “And what of thjs?” she demanded in heavy Taraboner accents, whipping aside the white cloth that covered the seal on the Dark One’s prison. For a change, her large blue-gray eyes looked more angry than startled. “Are there to be no more questions about this? Do you all mean to ignore it?” The black-and-white disc lay there, next to the washleather purse, in a dozen or more pieces, fitted back together as neatly as they could be.
Quote:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 50 - To Teach, and Learn
“It was whole when we put it in the purse.” Nynaeve paused to work moisture back into her mouth. As much as her eyes had avoided the covering cloth before, they could not leave the seal now. Leane had smirked when she saw the red dress unwrapped from around its cargo, and said. . . No, she would not run away from it, even in her head! “Why should we have thought to take special care? It’s cuendillar!”
At this point there are only 3 unbroken seals left. Now, I'm not entirely sure what it takes to break a seal. Nynaeve and Elayne certainly didn't detect Moggy channeling, but then again they didn't detect her until some time later and she'd been doing it all along (IIRC).

Did Moghedien "help" to break that seal? I think yes she did.
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  #52  
Old 09-15-2011, 10:31 AM
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I don't think so. If she could have, then she would not have left the seal where it was when she first found it.
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Old 09-15-2011, 03:46 PM
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Default Moghedien: Nynaeve, Elayne, and Birgitte. Those three she would find & deal with.

Question for you all: Where is Moghedien planning to trap Birgitte, Elayne Trakand, Nynaeve al'Meara at?


I'm specifically asking for discussion, because of this particular Moghedien point view:
Quote:
Stepping out from behind a thatch-roofed house, Moghedien wondered idly where this little village was. Not the sort of place she would expect to see banners flying. The girl had been stronger than she had thought, to escape her weaving of Tel’aran’rhiod. Even Lanfear could not improve on her abilities here, whatever she claimed. Still, the girl had just been of interest because she was speaking to Elayne Trakand, who might lead her to Nynaeve al’Meara. The only reason to trap her had simply been to rid Tel’aran’rhiod of one who could walk it freely. It was bad enough that she must share it with Lanfear.

But Nynaeve al’Meara. That woman she meant to make beg to be bound in her service. She would take her in the flesh, perhaps ask the Great Lord to grant her immortality, so Nynaeve could have forever to regret opposing Moghedien. She and Elayne were scheming with Birgitte, were they? That was another she had reason to punish. Birgitte had not even known who Moghedien was, so long ago, in the Age of Legends, when she foiled Moghedien’s finely wrought plan to lay Lews Therin by his heels. But Moghedien had known her. Only, Birgitte—Teadra, she had been then—had died before she could deal with her. Death was no punishment, no end, not when it meant living on here.

Nynaeve al’Meara, Elayne Trakand, and Birgitte. Those three she would find, and deal with. From the shadows, so that they would not know until too late. All three, without exception.

She vanished, and the banners waved on in the breeze of Tel’aran’rhiod.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 25 "Dreams of Galad" -- Moghedien point of view



Jewelry of a Ruler

Does Moghedien retain the Queen's Jewelry of Ghealdan still? The queen's necklace Masema took or stole from Alliandre?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
I'm not saying it was the right choice but at the risk of turning this into an Egwene thread the way Egwenen sees the world is as follows:

1 The Aes Sedai are the only transnational group that can look at the big picture as opposed to other groups that follow more limited national interest. As they alone can see the big picture they are key to the light having any hope of winning.

Technically speaking, Egwene al'Vere does refer to the Kin as transnational group. A group that can disappear at will. See Egwene's comments in Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 30 "What the Oath Rod Can Do".

Last edited by FelixPax; 09-15-2011 at 03:49 PM.
  #54  
Old 09-16-2011, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Question for you all: Where is Moghedien planning to trap Birgitte, Elayne Trakand, Nynaeve al'Meara at?
Er... it's pretty straightforward, as Moggy goes: she disguised herself as Marigan and attached herself to the trio. Thus gaining especially Nynaeve's sympathy and trust and entering Salidar. Sure, she probably had several more plans going on at the time but she made sure she was physically close to her targets.


Quote:
Jewelry of a Ruler


Does Moghedien retain the Queen's Jewelry of Ghealdan still? The queen's necklace Masema took or stole from Alliandre?
when did she get her hands on it and why is it important?
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  #55  
Old 09-19-2011, 03:38 PM
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Default Terez is not speaking the truth, only selling her theories here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Egwene invited Demandred, but he decided not to come.
False. Terez is incorrect.

Egwene al'Vere only invited the King of Murandy, in ToM book. (Grant that particular Chapter in ToM book, felt off in terms of Egwene's PoV. Details.)


Terez continues to try to sell a theory, at Demandred is King Roedran.


================================================== =======


I'm a bit amusing no one has tried to sell this idea yet at Theoryland forum:


If Demandred is impersonating anyone, outside of the two Shadow Mountain Coast nations, who to say it's not as the current King of Tarabon? A person Suroth formally put into power over Tarabon, no unless.

Who controls a darkfriend like Suroth? Chosen do.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:14 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Er... it's pretty straightforward, as Moggy goes: she disguised herself as Marigan and attached herself to the trio.
True, good point.

I have more to write about Moghedien, however I need to edit my lengthy response first.

Quote:
when did she get her hands on it and why is it important?
1st Short Answer: From Masema, in Samara.

2nd Short Answer: It ties directly to a Foretelling Dream Egwene al'Vere had early in the series. Moghedien is one of Chosen who have acquired the symbols of a Ruler.


Moghedien is the one who rules Ghealdan, in terms of power relations for a long part of the book via the Prophet of the Dragon Reborn. Not Queen Alliandre.

Moghedien is the one who is likely responsible for the death of the Panarch prior to Amathera Aelfdene Casmir Lounault. Moghedien is one of those who created chaos in Tarabon.
 

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