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  #21  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:41 AM
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Well, Rand did get quite close to it on Dragonmount.
And, considering the fact that for more than 3,000 years, of all the men who learned how to channel a total of zero managed to remain sane and healthy for their whole natural life, I think that a certain discomfort around male channelers is not entirely unreasonable.

Out of curiosity: if a boyhood friend of Taim were to show up and appear distrustful of the M'Hael, would you then fault him for that too?

Do you fault Min for being frightened when she realised that Fedwin Morr had gone totally insane while she was alone with him?
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  #22  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:08 AM
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Well, Rand did get quite close to it on Dragonmount.
And, considering the fact that for more than 3,000 years, of all the men who learned how to channel a total of zero managed to remain sane and healthy for their whole natural life, I think that a certain discomfort around male channelers is not entirely unreasonable.

Out of curiosity: if a boyhood friend of Taim were to show up and appear distrustful of the M'Hael, would you then fault him for that too?

Do you fault Min for being frightened when she realised that Fedwin Morr had gone totally insane while she was alone with him?
Dude. did I say it was unreasonable of Mat? no, I said some amount of distrust is justified. I also said that considering Mat's own experiences with an insanity-inducing force, his attitude towards Rand is highly hypocritical.

Rand stood by Mat during the whole dagger-craziness, Rand tried to help Mat get better and believed in Mat's recovery, after he was Healed. And how does Mat behave towards Rand? hm? If he's that terrified/disgusted at Rand, then why doesn't he take a good look at himself and either do something about his attitude or go hang himself for real this time.
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  #23  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:15 AM
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He complains, but he does stick by Rand. About the only time that he really retreats is right at first, when Rand pulls that banner from his saddle bag and informs Mat and Perrin that the Tower is gonna push him into being a mad false Dragon. Not wanting to be caught up in that is sort of sensible.

Plus, he would've annoyed the Lady Selene far too much, if he had accompanied Rand then.

Nynaeve also grumbles, and she also supports her friends.
Egwene grumbles less, and is out for her own advancement exclusively.
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  #24  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:47 AM
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He complains, but he does stick by Rand. About the only time that he really retreats is right at first, when Rand pulls that banner from his saddle bag and informs Mat and Perrin that the Tower is gonna push him into being a mad false Dragon. Not wanting to be caught up in that is sort of sensible.

Plus, he would've annoyed the Lady Selene far too much, if he had accompanied Rand then.

Nynaeve also grumbles, and she also supports her friends.
Egwene grumbles less, and is out for her own advancement exclusively.
Mat "sticks around". yeah, because the Pattern pulls him, not because he thinks it's a good idea to support his friend. In fact, he fights as much as he can against the Pattern pulling him, if you haven't noticed. The constant whining about ta'veeren this and Pattern that is almost as much a part of Mat as a character as his whining about the memories in his head.

Nynaeve thinks it's a good idea to support Rand even though she's worried about him. Egwene constantly tries to check up on Rand because she's worried about him (but of course she can't because his dreams are warded). She keeps having Dreams about him though and tries to take steps to ease Rand's way.
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Old 09-22-2011, 06:15 AM
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What steps does Egwene take to ease his way?
That may be a bit off topic*, but it is something I haven't really noticed since she hid him in TGH.

Mat does think he should help Rand if Rand needs it. He just does not think that Rand needs such help all that much, and he doesn't think that Rand wants it either, for the most part.
Mat wasn't really eager to go and be a large red herring distracting Sammael, but he did it anyway. Then he wasn't really eager to barge into a swarm of AS and bully them into helping Rand, but he agreed to try anyway. He wasn't eager to accompany half a dozen or so AS to Ebou Dar, but he did it, in order to help Rand. He wasn't eager to get married, but he did it (though that was an accident, admittedly). When Rand was going to Caemlyn to avenge Morgase, Mat showed up to come too.

* Then again, Egwene bashing is always on topic in WOT discussions.
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:30 AM
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What steps does Egwene take to ease his way?
That may be a bit off topic*, but it is something I haven't really noticed since she hid him in TGH.

Mat does think he should help Rand if Rand needs it. He just does not think that Rand needs such help all that much, and he doesn't think that Rand wants it either, for the most part.
Mat wasn't really eager to go and be a large red herring distracting Sammael, but he did it anyway. Then he wasn't really eager to barge into a swarm of AS and bully them into helping Rand, but he agreed to try anyway. He wasn't eager to accompany half a dozen or so AS to Ebou Dar, but he did it, in order to help Rand. He wasn't eager to get married, but he did it (though that was an accident, admittedly). When Rand was going to Caemlyn to avenge Morgase, Mat showed up to come too.

* Then again, Egwene bashing is always on topic in WOT discussions.
you said it yourself, Mat isn't interested in helping Rand. He's interested in running away and/or getting rid of the memories in his head. sure, he "does it anyway", kicking and screaming, shiftily craftily looking for another option (=not to help Rand) every step of the way.

As for Egwene helping Rand, she tried helping him to learn to channel, she's carrying messages back and forth between Rand's supporters, she's keeping an eye on him in T'A'R, she's politicking the AS to support him, although admittedly as the series progresses this gets rather difficult and in the end she has to take an official position that is (in my opinion) not in line with her personal thoughts. But, as you said, this isn't about Egwene, it's about wimpy wussy hypocrite Mat.
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2011, 07:34 AM
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Lemme see:

-Wimpy.
I don't think that is correct. He wants to be, but whenever it actually matters, he is brave. Then he berates himself again for having been a fool.

-Wussy.
If that were true, then he would accept Healing, instead of getting stitched up by someone who never even heard of anesthesia.

-Hypocrite.
No, he's quite honest about his attidude, he does not say it's wrong to use the OP and then benefit from it anyway (not unless it is to help others, at least), and he does not say that others have to do without either.
Still, it may be that this charge can be substantiated. I don't think the other two can. So, what've you got?
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2011, 07:57 AM
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you didn't address the fact that he's a bad friend.

wimpy: "When it actually matters" do you mean on the battlefield? Where he can't get away because of ta'veerenness? and where he's tried consistently not to end up? sure, if accident of location is bravery then Mat's insanely brave.

mind you, I don't think Elayne's type of reckless running into dangerous situations is bravery either.

wussy:your counterpoint has to do with his hypocricy, which you admit that he has. so your counterpoint is invalid. Mat is a wuss.

hypocricy regarding the OP: I'm sorry, did you actually read what I said he was hypocritical about? He HAS benefited from OP. By the end of FoH, the OP has saved his life, literally, 3 times! Not once has Mat thought "oh, look, I got saved by it this time, good for me". His hypocricy isn't even saying that OP is wrong in and of itself, his hypocricy is thinking (and pay attention here Gonzo, I laid it out in my first post already) that OP has somehow caused him enormous harm and every single wielder of the OP is specifically out to get him, Mat Cauthon when actually the OP hasn't treated him any different than anyone else and in fact has benefited him several times. 3 times (by the end of FoH) by saving his worthless little life. He's also hypocritical about madness when he himself suffered it and his friends stood by him and now a friend of his is suffering it and he's ready to desert him at first opportunity.
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  #29  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:04 AM
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I don't think Mat can give up his gambling, since it was the Pattern that chose that habit for him, and he will need it to help fight the Dark One. If nothing else, it already contributed to saving Moiraine, who is critical to Rand's success, according to Min (unless there is some other woman who is dead and gone that Min was thinking of, which doesn't seem likely-it would be funny if that viewing was about Lanfear though).

I also think that the whiny Mat has redeemed himself, becoming the General and embracing his fate rather than running away from it. And he does take his lumps with more humor than mopey Perrin and Rand.
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  #30  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:14 AM
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Well, the "wimpy" thing would also be disproven by his decision to run off to Tear in order to save some of his friends (who can channel), despite the fact that the a couple of Forsaken and the BA are out to get them.
Another case is his offer of letting either Nynaeve or Elayne have his medallion, when he learns that another Forsaken is out to get them. He could have ran away, but he didn't even consider that then.

I don't think I admitted he was a hypocrite, merely that I couldn't disprove that, yet.
And I think that I would want some quotes to substantiate that he is "thinking ... that OP has somehow caused him enormous harm and every single wielder of the OP is specifically out to get him". I do not see that. I do see that it makes him uncomfortable, and that his reaction is not entirely rational. He does not want anything to do with it.

As an aside, "thinking ... that Seanchan somehow caused her enormous harm and every single Seanchan is specifically out to get her" does describe part of Egwene pretty well. Amusing, that.
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  #31  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:47 AM
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As an aside, "thinking ... that Seanchan somehow caused her enormous harm and every single Seanchan is specifically out to get her" does describe part of Egwene pretty well. Amusing, that.
I'm looking for quotes for the rest of it. While you're waiting though, read my first post again, I give a pretty good chronological summary there.

as for Gonzo's Mandatory Egwene-Hate: I'm sorry, when was the OP used to brutally torture, humiliate and incarcerate Mat? When was the OP used to force Mat do something he really didn't want to do, such as blow stuff up? I mean FORCE, not coerce. When was OP used to strip Mat of his identity, his name?
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Old 09-22-2011, 09:00 AM
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When was OP used to strip Mat of his identity, his name?
In Caemlyn, when Rahvin lightninged him. Then he was pining for the fjords for a while, but Mat got over it.
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  #33  
Old 09-22-2011, 09:13 AM
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In Caemlyn, when Rahvin lightninged him. Then he was pining for the fjords for a while, but Mat got over it.
is that all you've got?

you know, come to think of it, I think Mat might be The Character Most Often Brought Back To Life By The One Power. I'll have to do some research on that though.
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  #34  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:28 AM
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is that all you've got?

you know, come to think of it, I think Mat might be The Character Most Often Brought Back To Life By The One Power. I'll have to do some research on that though.
Of course, every time he's been brought back to life by it, its because he was originally put in that situation by it.

Its like an abusive spouse taking his wife to see the doctor after giving her a black eye.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:31 AM
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Of course, every time he's been brought back to life by it, its because he was originally put in that situation by it.

Its like an abusive spouse taking his wife to see the doctor after giving her a black eye.
dude. again. killed by OP (Rahvin) once. killed by Darkhounds once. in the process of being killed by the Shadar Logoth dagger once.

Brought back by OP 3 times. 3>1 last I checked.

ETA: that's the count at the end of FoH, anyways.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:39 AM
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The Dagger was the result of Moiraine (a channeler) taking him into Shadar Logoth but forgetting/refusing to properly warn them. All she says is a vague comment about how it was an ally of Manetheren in the Trollocs Wars and that Fades/Trollocs still fear it. Thus, she failed big time on giving them a proper threat briefing.

Killed by Lightning OP...brought back by balefile OP.

The Darkhounds (creatures created by the OP) are stopped by another OP channeler.

Thus, without the OP, he's living a nice easy life in the TR.
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Old 09-22-2011, 10:45 AM
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The Dagger was the result of Moiraine (a channeler) taking him into Shadar Logoth but forgetting/refusing to properly warn them. All she says is a vague comment about how it was an ally of Manetheren in the Trollocs Wars and that Fades/Trollocs still fear it. Thus, she failed big time on giving them a proper threat briefing.

Killed by Lightning OP...brought back by balefile OP.

The Darkhounds (creatures created by the OP) are stopped by another OP channeler.

Thus, without the OP, he's living a nice easy life in the TR.
lol, by that Moiraine point you're helping my argument against Gonzo, you know (that Mat thinks OP has done some Huge Harm to him).

Without OP Mat would indeed be in TR, probably getting his ass soundly whooped by Mistress Luhhan for stealing pies. And he'd probably be moaning and whining about his poor destiny, no adventures anywhere to be had, only milking cows day in, day out.

Then again, Without OP we wouldn't have Wheel of Time to read so the question is rather moot.
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Old 09-22-2011, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
I don't think Mat can give up his gambling, since it was the Pattern that chose that habit for him, and he will need it to help fight the Dark One. If nothing else, it already contributed to saving Moiraine, who is critical to Rand's success, according to Min (unless there is some other woman who is dead and gone that Min was thinking of, which doesn't seem likely-it would be funny if that viewing was about Lanfear though).

I also think that the whiny Mat has redeemed himself, becoming the General and embracing his fate rather than running away from it. And he does take his lumps with more humor than mopey Perrin and Rand.
Well to be fair to Perrin, he's certainly redeemed himself for moping. As of the end of ToM, he's embraced his role and appears to be the only one of three who self-actualized. I don't count Rand, because he had supernatural help from LTT's memories. Plus his whiny, mopey, non-embrasure was way worse than Perrin's.

Mat, though, still can't seem to figure out exactly what he wants to do.
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Old 09-22-2011, 01:02 PM
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Mat, though, still can't seem to figure out exactly what he wants to do.
i would say mostly Tuon at this point, and drink then stay alive to drink while gambling then Tuon again in the morning
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Old 09-24-2011, 10:05 AM
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I don't think Mat can give up his gambling, since it was the Pattern that chose that habit for him, and he will need it to help fight the Dark One.
Yeah, but who's going to want to gamble with Mat? He already cannot gamble with any of the Aiel men from Rhuidean. Then he's got reputation problems elsewhere too, as the Prince of Ravens who never loses!

People just won't play that game with him, anymore. No fun. No chance of winning.
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