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  #21  
Old 08-01-2011, 06:28 AM
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Default One down...

...Two to go.

The first (and most mundane) of the three. Let's see if it gets through.
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  #22  
Old 08-01-2011, 10:10 AM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
WSB - he is arguing that Verin uses the word "parallel" when describing Mirror Worlds and then mentions worlds that run perpendicular to the wheel. While Perpendicular to me suggests something completely other than a Parallel World, technically no quote denies Verin's perpendicular worlds from being "Parallel Worlds".

In essence it would be:

Verin's Parallel = Jordan's Mirror Worlds (this is factual)
Verin's Perpendicular = Jordan's Parallel Worlds (this is the theory)

Unreasoner - as to proof that weighs against, Egwene speaks about peeking into dreams through the GOI regarding Perpendicular Worlds and speaks of how they are so far from reality. And we are told that Ogier come from a Parallel World. The fact that they fit within the reality of Randland, and even the Finn world is not so different that it cannot be traversed and understood suggest to me that Perpendicular worlds are a type of Mirror World (within that Layer of reality) instead of mixing the concepts of reality and un-reality. And such will be my case against your theory, but you already knew that. And no I don't feel like finding the Egwene quote atm.
Yeah, I realized that the quote I was thinking of was not specific enough to say that parallel worlds were not the same as perpendicular worlds. However, I can't find the word 'perpendicular' mentioned anywhere in the books, using the search feature. The only thing that I can find possibly referencing that is the "warp and the woof" that Verin speaks of to Egwene in TDR ch 21:


Quote:
Dragon Reborn CH: 21 - A World of Dreams
"Very good. But the Pattern may be even more complex than that, child. The Wheel weaves our lives to make the Pattern of an Age, but the Ages themselves are woven into the Age Lace, the Great Pattern. Who can know if this is even the tenth part of the weaving, though? Some in the Age of Legends apparently believe that there were still other worlds - even harder to reach than the worlds of the Portal Stones, if that can be believed - lying like this." She drew more lines, cross-hatching the first set. For a moment she stared at them. "The warp and the woof of the weave. Perhaps the Wheel of Time weaves a still greater Pattern from worlds." Straightening, she dusted her hands. "Well, that is neither here nor there. In all of these worlds, whatever their other variations, a few things are constant. One is that the Dark One is imprisoned in all of them."
I also thought that parallel worlds were mirror worlds but that seems to be contradicted by this quote:

Quote:
Tamyrlin: Okay, so are Parallel worlds and Mirror worlds the same thing?

Jordan: No, they are different.
And yet we know that Portal Stones lead to Mirror Worlds, and also to parallel worlds:

Quote:
The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time CHAPTER: Exotic Animals of Seanchan

These strange new creatures were not Shadowspawn at all, but the descendants of beasts brought back from parallel worlds, via Portal Stones, during the first thousand years after the Breaking, probably in an attempt to find aid against the real Shadowspawn. While the creatures’ effectiveness was not recorded, it was during this same period that all remaining Shadowspawn on the continent were eradicated. The creatures remained, their care and training surviving through all the political upheavals until Luthair’s arrival. The knowledge that allowed their procurement by way of the Portal Stones, however, was lost.
So maybe there is some overlap between parallel worlds and mirror worlds, but some divergence also. There are other kinds of worlds out there, that may fall into different categories:

Tel'aran'rhiod
Finnland
The Dark One's Prison
Vacuoles (not that they are necessarily world size)
Gap of Infinity
The Ways

Can't think of any others ATM.
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  #23  
Old 08-01-2011, 10:14 AM
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@WSB: Ogierland...(same group as Finnland (most likely, the world/worlds/realms/dimensions debate is bizarre))

****************************


LEGEND:
Star w/circumscribed circle: The Wheel of Time
Blue Line: Ogierland
Red Line: Randland
Green Line: Other Parallel World
Purple Region: Period of Time Ogier Live in Randland

Basically a crappy diagram of how worlds could all be parallel to Time in one dimension, but must intersect with each other (and an even number of times), if the worlds are to exchange anything.
***EDITED TO ADD***
Essentially there is no reason why the worlds can't be both perpendicular to each other in one dimension while still being parallel to Time. I didn't realize how bad of a drawing that was at first, so clarification may be necessary
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Last edited by The Unreasoner; 08-02-2011 at 12:18 AM.
  #24  
Old 08-01-2011, 10:24 AM
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Default I would suggest

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Does anyone know how firm the five paragraph thing is? I make my case for the first theory, such as it is, in three (discounting quotes), but I see theories on the order of twenty paragraphs.
Writing as much as possible. I don't like posting theories that are not well quoted/supported. While it isn't quantity, most often the less well conceived ideas are short in their explanations.

I'll take a look and contact you if it needs more work.
  #25  
Old 08-02-2011, 11:38 PM
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Default

It occurs to me that my first theory really just alleges either Verin being metaphorical or inaccurate, so there may not be enough of an issue to take a stand on.
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  #26  
Old 08-04-2011, 01:48 AM
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Default Dark One has conquered other Worlds

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
I'm about to post three theories (my first), and I'd like a heads up if there is something obvious that proves any of them wrong so I won't bother.
Essentially:

The Dark One has already conquered at least one parallel world.
Moghedien has already claimed as much.


Quote:
She could not hide a relieved gasp. The only reason anyone would want to enter a vacuole was that time flowed differently there, sometimes slower, sometimes faster. Sometimes much faster. She would not have been entirely surprised to learn that the Great Lord had really imprisoned her for a hundred years, or a thousand, to emerge into a world already his, to make her way feeding among carrion while the other Chosen stood at the pinnacle. She was still one of the Chosen, in her own mind, at least. Until the Great Lord himself said she was not. She had never heard of anyone being released once a mindtrap was set, but she would find a way. There was always a way for those who were cautious, while those fell who called caution cowardice. She herself had carried a few of that so-called brave sort to Shayol Ghul to be fitted with cour’souvra.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 25 "Mindtrap" -- Moghedien point of view; with Moridin
  #27  
Old 08-04-2011, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
Moghedien has already claimed as much.
Felix, she is not claiming that the DO has conquered a parallel world, she is suggesting the possibility that she might re-emerge into a future of her world already conquered by the DO.
  #28  
Old 08-04-2011, 03:16 AM
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Default Dark One, The Creature, The Creator, the Pattern and Changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Felix, she is not claiming that the DO has conquered a parallel world, she is suggesting the possibility that she might re-emerge into a future of her world already conquered by the DO.

Have you thought about exactly what the Dark One does to a World conquered? A World transformed? A World taken by a true nightmare?


Think about the distinctions and effects between:
  • Fain-Mordeth-Sammael-Black Wind-Mashadar-The Creature
  • Dark One's World


Time and Dreams are two huge distinctions, differences.


It's a wheel, with third general constants--Dark One, Creator, Pattern(Parallel/Mirror). Yet Fain is not part of the Pattern nor is Fain connected to the Creator, nor the Dark One now.

Fain represents a change, a variation. A new force. Remember variations are allowed by the Wheel, according to RJ.

Oh, yes, the Dark One can and has conquered a World before. Like Fain, the Dark One can change a World to become like his own native World outside of the Pattern and the Creator. The Dark One is a change agent.


As long as memory exists in one soul, the Dark One cannot conquer all Worlds or places including vacuoles.
  #29  
Old 08-25-2011, 02:53 PM
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Default Some ideas I'd like to bounce around...

Some thoughts inspired by a post by Felix, and the general points made in the double dawn thread. Essentially I am working on ideas withhin one of the theories, and I thought the following posts and points frame the issues pretty well.

Is Rand 'one with' humanity itself? Can the belief and faith of the people give him power? Maradon-level power? Does the Dragon have Tel'aran'rhiod-like abilities within the real world? If so, is the inherent link to the land based on the same principles that link the Dragon to T'A'R? What sort of power can the Dragon access? What is his endgame? Is this an endgame?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Rand is one with the land rather than the world. The depth of that connection doesn't change the fundamental fact that his association is with the land, not the entire planet.
I would agree that being one withe the planet itself seems a little off. But why not one with the consciousnesses? The Dragon has demonstrated the ability to sense them:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TEotW Prologue
The land around him was flat and empty. A river flowed nearby, straight and broad, but he could sense there were no people within a hundred leagues. He was alone, as alone as a man could be while still alive, yet he could not escape memory.
And they are clearly discreet entities. In T'A'R, the world of fully actualized potentials, even Birgitte has the ability to sense them:
Quote:
Originally Posted by TFoH Meetings
In the usual course I can find anyone who knows they are in the World of Dreams; there is a feel, like ripples spreading through the air from them. Or perhaps from their awareness; I do not know, really. I am a soldier, not a scholar.
In T'A'R, Rand might be able to "create" a world himself, and give life to/transfer the souls of the people that define the land.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Tel’aran’rhiod is The Grand Reflection of the Collective Consciousness. As Loial notes, every world has a certain degree of ‘awareness’, and it is that awareness that I feel is reflected. Although, each awareness is unique, and so is each Dreamwalker’s experience of T’A’R.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FelixPax View Post
One caused by Dreaming, via Valan Luca creating Light by thought and imagination, after the 'World of Dream' and 'World of Flesh' have fully become One in the same on Earth. (Yes, A Mirror World become a Parallel World on Sunday. Seals are broken, then Dark One comes to try to finish the job.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
it is obviously possible for a soul to leave TAR and become corporeal through the Power of TAR.
It seems that some schools of thought within Randland ascribe to such a school of thought. The Aiel believe life is a dream, and the Amayar believe the world is illusion:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoD To Make an Anchor Weep
It seems the Amayar had prophecies that spoke of the Hand, and when it was destroyed, they believed this signaled the end of time, what they called the end of Illusion. They believed it was time for them to leave this . . . this illusion”—she laughed the word bitterly— “we call the world.”

The questions that remain are: Is Rand up for the task? Will such an act be 'unique'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToM Epilogue
This wasn't the real location. It wasn't even the World of Dreams, that place where he'd fought Forsaken, the place he'd been told was so dangerous.(1) No, this was one of his own ordinary dreams. He controlled them now(2)...In that nameless valley below, sheltered in the Mountains of Mist, he'd begun a journey. Not his first, and not his last, but perhaps the most important.(3) One of the most painful, for certain. "And now I come back," he whispered. "I've changed again. A man is always changing.(4)" He felt a unity in returning here, to the place where he'd first confronted the killer inside him. The place where he'd first tried to flee from those whom he should have kept near.(5) He closed his eyes, enjoying tranquility. Calmness. Harmony.
1. Does Rand Sedai laugh at such a notion?
2. Control, and certainty. Perhaps he can make a New World after all.
3. A potential indicator for uniqueness?
4. Change. A good thing. More achievable in linear time?
5. Kept near...those who are part of him? Or do they simply need one another?
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  #30  
Old 08-25-2011, 06:10 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix
Fain represents a change, a variation. A new force.
Yes, we know. Fain is Agent Smith.
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  #31  
Old 08-25-2011, 06:24 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeyRoad View Post
Yes, we know. Fain is Agent Smith.
Youngling Rep. Once I get round to changing my sig (sorry Unreasoner).
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  #32  
Old 09-27-2011, 11:23 PM
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Default A title for my next (and probably last) theory...

When working on my other theories, my WoT metaphysics write-up, and in responding to other specific threads, I noticed that my other theories began to mutate and coalesce into one. The process behind the theory is almost as interesting as the theory itself.

Major thanks to Felix, Terez, Gonzo, and Tamyrlin.

I also want to recognize Zombie, the collective, confused, finssss, Rand al'Fain, and Davian.

Not everyone directly contributed to the theory itself. For instance, Felix and Terez had more direct and correlated influence. Gonzo and Tamyrlin contributed more by presenting a specific point I disagreed with, but was unable to say exactly why. In finding the why, my theory evolved.

But so I would like some feedback on the title my submitted theory should have. The working title is "Wheel of Time Eschatology." But, I also have:

My Reconciliation with Gareth Bryne

The ESC Couch: Inherently Evil

Blacksmith's Puzzles: The Fundamental Metaphor

Felix Was (Almost) Right All Along

The True Nature of the Reset Button
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