The Dragon Reborn 27 - AMoL Foreshadowing Discussion

[GonzoTheGreat]

Then again, AS might be less inclined to credit a "wilder" like Alivia than they would be a Novice (Accepted? can't remember, and doesn't seem important enough to look up) like Sharina.

[Grig]

Unlike Sharina, there has been no talk of Alivia being as strong as it is possible to be, so we assume she isn't.

Are we really crediting what Third Age Aes Sedai think is possible as any sort of WoTverse truth? Cuz Logain was healed, yo.

The comparison also is not very apt since Alivia has not spent time with any of the old Aes Sedai that tend to make these proclamations, aside from Cadsuane who isn't generally the type to go on about what is or isn't possible. Sharina has been with the SAS, with plenty of older AS who are the type to not understand the limits on their (collective) knowledge and capabilities, which is why they say such silly thinks as "as strong as it is possible to be". Lanfear says something similar, but short a *finn request the most obvious explanation is she's used to being the strongest woman and is horribly arrogant.

[Terez]

*shrug* Believe what you want. The evidence points to Alivia being at least one rung below Lanfear/Sharina.

[1Powerslave]

Originally Posted by Terez

The angreal was not in addition (Lanfear has one, and so does Alivia). When Lanfear realized that Alivia's strength was impossible, she realized she must have an angreal. Unlike Sharina, there has been no talk of Alivia being as strong as it is possible to be, so we assume she isn't.

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too

This passage is problematic cause it has inherit logical flaws. For instance you say that Cyndane realizing Alivia's strength was impossible she thinks she must have an angreal, that goes against the conclusion Cyndane should have made. The obvious conclusion is not that someone has impossible strength, it is that they have an angreal. So that is the conclusion Cyndane should have made right of the bat, not by first jumping to an "impossible" conclusion, reiterating that conclusion in the next sentence before finally coming to a reasonable conclusion.

The sentence "She was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her!" seems to me to be referring to natural born raw strength. It is what is usually meant when using those terms. Also, in light of what we now know, that the *Finns drained Lanfear/Cyndane of her strength before she was rescued, it also appears that it was raw natural born strength that was the meaning in that sentance. She gives a reference to the *Finns and there she lost raw strength, not angreal enhanced strength.

Now, the first sentence "Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock." is what is starting the misleading and logically flawed monologue. How can you detect what raw strength someone has only based on the power of a weaving? Can't be done as far as I know.

Last two sentences goes with what you say the meaning is, "That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too." Which is likely what RJ meant. But that Lanfear would be so daft to say the things above, and so arrogant and daft and used to being the strongest woman alive to think that anything else would be impossible (because of plastic - power enhancing - surgery??), it doesn't make sense.

[Terez]

She believes that it was impossible to be stronger than she was before the 'Finns (that bit was not under debate so far as I recall) because there is an upper limit to female strength. This is made clear enough with the Sharina passage, not to mention the scale RJ mentioned. Graendal said much the same when speaking of her angreal - that anyone who thought they knew her strength would find a shock.

[1Powerslave]

The Graendal case does lend support by using the same lingo. Sharina and 21-scale isn't that conclusive though. What does Lanfear know of RJ 21-scale? Sharina is as has been said argued by third age Aes Sedai.

[Terez]

Evidently, there is a way that they can tell what the upper limit is. It may be a simple matter of sensing potential in terms of percentage. There would be no reason for the Aes Sedai to speculate that Sharina will become 'as strong as it is possible to be' if the upper limit wasn't known.

[Grig]

Evidently, there is a way that they can tell what the upper limit is. It may be a simple matter of sensing potential in terms of percentage. There would be no reason for the Aes Sedai to speculate that Sharina will become 'as strong as it is possible to be' if the upper limit wasn't known.

Unless they are imposing a limit that doesn't exist based on ignorance? Kind of like the one that said that stilling couldn't be healed? Or that channelers cannot be forced into circles?

I can say that there's no possible way a man can lift 2000 lbs unaided. That doesn't make it true. I might believe it is. It might be. But unless I can demonstrate it is somehow a logical contradiction, it is at best a provisional guess until someone comes along that can lift 2000 lbs unaided to disprove it. Same with their upper bound. Unless it's WoG, it's questionable. And what they consider the upper bound might not be the same as what Jordan did, even. And while Third Agers have lucked into some discoveries that AoL AS couldn't have dreamed of, their knowledge of the Power in general seems rather deficient -- they seem an odd source of absolutes on what can or cannot exist or be done with reference to the Power.

[Terez]

Originally Posted by Grig

Unless they are imposing a limit that doesn't exist based on ignorance?

Along with the fact that 1) we know there is an upper limit from RJ, and 2) Lanfear knows of the upper limit, Occam's Razor suggests that there is one, and that it's not a secret. I think I already explained sufficiently how this could be possible.

[Grig]

1) we know there is an upper limit from RJ

I never contested this. I'm asking you how the Third Age AS learned this from RJ, or how we know that their upper limit is congruent with his.

2) Lanfear knows of the upper limit

How do we know this? She thinks people can't be stronger than her. But unless it's phrased much clearer, that was no different than Vegeta crushing his scouter because he sees someone's power level over 8000. Every shounen villain goes off about how nobody can be stronger than them. It doesn't mean that their strength aligns with the actually existing universal upper limit.

[Terez]

Why assume that Lanfear was merely being arrogant when the idea of an upper limit is corroborated by the Aes Sedai? Again, Occam's Razor suggests that they simply have a way of knowing how strong a woman can be.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Originally Posted by Terez

Why assume that Lanfear was merely being arrogant when the idea of an upper limit is corroborated by the Aes Sedai? Again, Occam's Razor suggests that they simply have a way of knowing how strong a woman can be.

The other point I've always made is that Cyndane was right--Alivia did have an angreal. To me, this is pretty strong corroboration that Lanfear was indeed "maxed out."

[Rusty Neal]

If the Seanchan enter Tar Valon through a basement, they will quickly gain a superior position in one of the buildings: Library Tower or White Tower.

When I first read this I read it as
"If the Seanchan enter Tar Valon through a basement, they will quickly gain a '"Supervisor"' position in one of the buildings: Library Tower or White Tower. lol

I see you are knowlegable in history. Now, I need two forms of identification and 3 references.

[Rusty Neal]

Sorry, first time post. I do not know how to quote others entry's

[GonzoTheGreat]

Originally Posted by Rusty Neal

Sorry, first time post. I do not know how to quote others entry's

The simplest way is probably just hitting the "quote" button at the bottom of the post you want to quote.

And the Seanchan might find that they've stuffed their entire army into a basement that was blocked off during the Trolloc Wars, if they're just a bit unlucky. That'd be fun, wouldn't it?

[Rusty Neal]

thanks! i did not see the quote button

[codetoast]

Who is the guy thats coming in at the end of the visit to T'A'R to look at Callendor. Is it Rand? or Ishameal or Be'lal, or another. Theres a lot of people interested in it and it seems like sylvie is afraid for egwene being seen there.

Personally I think this is of significance:
"Air, and Fire, and Spirit. She could trace the intricate weave made by saidar, set with a strength that amazed her. There were gaps in that weave, spaces where her probe should slide through. When she tried, it was like fighting the strongest part of the weave head on. It hit her then, what she was trying to force a way through, and she let her probe vanish. Half that wall had been woven using saidar; the other half, the part she could not sense or touch, had been made with saidin. That was not it exactly--the wall was all of one piece--but it was close enough. A stone wall stops a blind woman as surely as one who can see it."

The shield exists in TAR as well as the waking world. Also its woven with saidar and saidin. Maybe this is the way the seal on the dark ones prison will work. Of course there is too much in this chapter to know for sure what he means but here are some other possibilities:

"she--she offered kisses, and more" -who is the she here, lanfear?

Verin seems to me more aloof going into those kitchens then she originally thought. I dont know if perhaps she was under compulsion.

So many more here to speculate on.

[Davian93]

Most likely Be'lal based on context.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Originally Posted by codetoast

Who is the guy thats coming in at the end of the visit to T'A'R to look at Callendor. Is it Rand? or Ishameal or Be'lal, or another. Theres a lot of people interested in it and it seems like sylvie is afraid for egwene being seen there.

I would guess Be'lal, based on the "Awake or asleep, he wants..." which follows Sylvie's statement that "he's coming to stare at it again".
Of course, that is not quite definitive, so there is still room for uncertainty here. But Be'lal is the only one who could safely approach Callandor in the real world, as any others would be considered intruders. Rand wasn't close to Tear, yet, and Ishamael didn't want to fight Be'lal for a prize neither of them could get anyway at that time.

"she--she offered kisses, and more" -who is the she here, lanfear?

Good question.
I would say that it depends on whether or not the "she" tried to kill Rand. If so, then it wasn't Lanfear, if not, then it probably was.

[IvySedai]

Early in 2011, Brandon Sanderson posted this on Twitter:

"Wow. TDR 27 has a cool little foreshadowing for the end of AMOL that I'd never noticed before. #wotrr"

At the time, people hottly tried to guess what it was, mostly by finding hidden meanings in Eg´s dreams and weaving theories with them. And then they forgot about it, myself included.

Then, during a reread of TDR I came across something that made me think 'hey, this looks like a foreshadowing'. And I suddenly remembered Brandon´s twit. When I went to check it, bingo, it was the same chapter I was reading. So my guess is simply that Elayne is going to be attacked by a gray man at the end of AMoL. Afterall, the foreshadowing was supposed to be about something little, not a big surprise.

There are 2 lines:

“I have to write to my mother,” Elayne said. When she saw the looks they gave her, her voice became
defensive. “I have already vanished once without her knowing where I was. If I do it again . . . . You do not
know Mother’s temper. She could send Gareth Bryne and the whole army against Tar Valon. Or hunting after
us.”
“You could stay here,” Egwene said.
“No. I will not let you two go alone. And I won’t stay here wondering if the sister teaching me is a
Darkfriend, or if the next Gray Man will come after me.”

and:

“Nynaeve,” Egwene said in a small voice, “I . . . . I don’t want to be alone tonight.” It pained her to make that admission.
“I don’t, either,” Elayne said. “I keep thinking about the Soulless. I do not know why, but they frighten
me even more than the Black Ajah.”

Both quotes are from TDR Ch27. And there is also that angreal that Aviendha thinks will make her undetectable to shadow minions. If Elayne is attacked by a Soulless, she will have need of it.

Comments?