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  #421  
Old 01-09-2012, 02:23 PM
Landro Landro is offline
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Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
Fain is as much a part of SL as the dagger by now and shouldn't become a rotting corpse in three seconds.
In ToM, Prologue, Fain cuts himself with the dagger and nothing strange happens. He just bleeds.
  #422  
Old 01-13-2012, 11:47 AM
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I like the idea of some kind of betrayal on Mat's part, and am surprised that this quote has yet to be mentioned in this thread:

Quote:
Dragon Reborn CH: 30 - The First Toss
From the looks some of the men gave him, he was glad he had left his own dice in his pouch. Those looks made him decide to move on. With surprise he realized that he had nearly thirty silver marks in his purse now, but he had not won so much from any one man that they would not all be glad to see him go.
So, in Chapter 30 (the first chapter in Brandon's clue range), Mat has nearly 30 silvers, evoking a famous traitor. Or maybe Mat will nearly betray Rand. Perhaps he will be forced to choose between Rand and Tuon. That would certainly give him pause, in the very least.
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  #423  
Old 01-13-2012, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
I like the idea of some kind of betrayal on Mat's part, and am surprised that this quote has yet to be mentioned in this thread:



So, in Chapter 30 (the first chapter in Brandon's clue range), Mat has nearly 30 silvers, evoking a famous traitor.
Wow. I never made this connection at all! Nice one.
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  #424  
Old 01-13-2012, 04:18 PM
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The whole foundation of the WoT is based on Rand requiring Perrin's and Mat's help to win against the DO. It would be safe to say that Mat's betrayal of Rand is inconceivable.

Mat loves Tuon/Fortuona; but he doesn't have Perrin's weakness (do anything for Faile). That is clear by his decision to go to Camelyon after Kadre took Tuon to Ebou Dor. If Mat was head over heels for Tuon at the expense of his mission, he would have gone back with her after getting rid of Suroth's army. But he didn't.

And in the last book, he's set to go with Moiraine and Thom to meet Rand.

I just cannot see any betrayal from the son of battle.
  #425  
Old 01-13-2012, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
The whole foundation of the WoT is based on Rand requiring Perrin's and Mat's help to win against the DO. It would be safe to say that Mat's betrayal of Rand is inconceivable.
No, Mat's betrayal is foreshadowed well. We know he won't do anything with malicious intent, but there's still plenty of room for interpretation.
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  #426  
Old 01-13-2012, 08:31 PM
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No, Mat's betrayal is foreshadowed well. We know he won't do anything with malicious intent, but there's still plenty of room for interpretation.
I think he's already done enough damage by ignoring Verin's letter. And there are other instances where his actions had grave consequences (e.g. running of after treasure in Shadar Logoth).

Mat's flaw is his desire to be as far away from Aes Sedai and their power as possible. But RJ drew him up as Aes Sedai savior to add to the irony. Mat has spent more time saving Aes Sedai than helping Rand!

But having a flaw is different from betrayal, since malicious intent is central betrayal.
  #427  
Old 01-13-2012, 08:44 PM
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I think he's already done enough damage by ignoring Verin's letter.
Sure, but that doesn't count as Mat's betrayal of Rand, specifically. There are all kinds of theories as to what form that betrayal will take, but it's going to be a little more obvious than that.

Quote:
And there are other instances where his actions had grave consequences (e.g. running of after treasure in Shadar Logoth).
This was before the foreshadowing of his betrayal began, though you might say his picking up the dagger was a foreshadowing itself.
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  #428  
Old 01-13-2012, 09:01 PM
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The foreshadowing goes back further, into the Portal Stone fun in TGH (discussed recently I believe). It's almost dead certain, I think (AMoL prove me wrong.)


Is there any before then? I honestly can't recall. I'm not sure if he says anything out of place during the dagger fever or not.

Something to look for in the reread. I had been focusing on instances of Rand holding/channeling.
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  #429  
Old 01-13-2012, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Sure, but that doesn't count as Mat's betrayal of Rand, specifically. There are all kinds of theories as to what form that betrayal will take, but it's going to be a little more obvious than that.

This was before the foreshadowing of his betrayal began, though you might say his picking up the dagger was a foreshadowing itself.
Please excuse my ignorance, but please refer me to a reading on this foreshadowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupusdeusest View Post
The foreshadowing goes back further, into the Portal Stone fun in TGH (discussed recently I believe). It's almost dead certain, I think (AMoL prove me wrong.)


Is there any before then? I honestly can't recall. I'm not sure if he says anything out of place during the dagger fever or not.

Something to look for in the reread. I had been focusing on instances of Rand holding/channeling.

As to the experiences in the portal stones, they presented alternatives to what could happen if such and such happened. Egwene's test as an accepted is an example; as she felt afterwards that she will always fail him. So in my current state of ignorance, I don't think Mat's portal stone alternatives will happen. He's still dedicated to Rand as far as I can see.
  #430  
Old 01-13-2012, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Lupusdeusest View Post
The foreshadowing goes back further, into the Portal Stone fun in TGH (discussed recently I believe). It's almost dead certain, I think (AMoL prove me wrong.)
That's what I meant when I said that he picked up the dagger before that foreshadowing.

Quote:
Is there any before then?
Nothing blatant.

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Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
Please excuse my ignorance, but please refer me to a reading on this foreshadowing.

As to the experiences in the portal stones, they presented alternatives to what could happen if such and such happened. Egwene's test as an accepted is an example; as she felt afterwards that she will always fail him. So in my current state of ignorance, I don't think Mat's portal stone alternatives will happen. He's still dedicated to Rand as far as I can see.
It's a foreshadowing, which means that the nature of the experiences in the Portal Stones is irrelevant. Rand's experiences all ended with him dying, and the last words he hears are "I have won again, Lews Therin." It may be that this is what he heard because he had taken the wrong paths in all those lives. It may be that it is simply the most unavoidable aspect of his fate. Mat's betrayal is foreshadowed in many ways, including the Portal Stone incident. WSB pointed out another one. I've pointed out before that there were heavy Judas parallels in the Rhuidean scene where Mat is hung (and Rand revived him with 'a kiss'), though they're 'reverse-engineered' (which is RJ's term for what he does with his parallels to myth and legend). I think that Mat's wager with Rahvin ties into it as well, though it was a sack of gold in that case. He gave the stakes to Basel Gill to watch over for him, and Gill has gone on to be an important character, so it's likely we'll hear something else about that. Mat is an Odin parallel, but he's also a Loki parallel. And Egwene's Accepted test is just another example of heavy foreshadowing masked by the non-prophetic nature of what she saw. It's the same with the Portal Stones.

I think that Mat's betrayal will have a few layers, but none of it involves malicious intent. Try to avoid the knee-jerk reaction, and be a little more creative in imagining what form the 'betrayal' might take.
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  #431  
Old 01-13-2012, 09:46 PM
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The whole foundation of the WoT is based on Rand requiring Perrin's and Mat's help to win against the DO. It would be safe to say that Mat's betrayal of Rand is inconceivable.
Actually with the hints we have pointing us in that direction I would say the opposite is inconceivable. As has been pointed out it need not be malicious.
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Last edited by suttree; 01-13-2012 at 11:26 PM.
  #432  
Old 01-13-2012, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
I think that Mat's betrayal will have a few layers, but none of it involves malicious intent. Try to avoid the knee-jerk reaction, and be a little more creative in imagining what form the 'betrayal' might take.
His "betrayal" could involve him siding with Egwene against Rand's plans (if he makes it to Merrilor in time), or even siding with Tuon in negotiating the treaty between the Seanchan and the Randlanders.
  #433  
Old 01-14-2012, 12:52 AM
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His "betrayal" could involve him siding with Egwene against Rand's plans (if he makes it to Merrilor in time), or even siding with Tuon in negotiating the treaty between the Seanchan and the Randlanders.
Right, I think that is likely to be one of the layers of the 'betrayal'. In fact, it could be a catalyst for Dark Rand, if Mat makes Rand angry and his Moridin side starts showing in response.

Another layer I have theorized about is the possibility that, after Rand dies, Mat will blow the Horn and either 1) 'betray' the fact that Rand is dead, or 2) 'betray' the fact that he has already been resurrected. I think the second is more likely because it is also a parallel to the empty tomb. In the case of the first, he might do that just based on the colors; after the Portal Stone incident, he promised he would never tell anyone about Rand. In that case, it was probably in reference to the fact that Rand could channel, which was still a secret at the time. So Mat could unwittingly betray Rand by blabbing his mouth about something he shouldn't have mentioned. It would be fitting for his character.

Another possible layer might have to do with the silver medallion, which is all tied up in the reverse-engineered Judas parallel at Rhuidean. Gawyn is also a Loki parallel, and a Mordred parallel, and he still seems slated for a betrayal. He would no doubt find a good use for a proper copy of Mat's medallion, which would be fitting, since they share a Loki parallel. There might be some other way to tie Gawyn up with Judas, but I think Judas is mostly Mat because I think Mat and Perrin carry the bulk of the disciple parallels. I think Perrin will deny Rand three times. Probably in the context of knowing Rand is alive; Perrin keeps the secret and Mat betrays it. Anyway, this is definitely a more indirect thing, unless Mat gives Gawyn his own medallion, which seems unlikely.
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  #434  
Old 01-14-2012, 01:53 AM
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Lol, I was elsewhere for 20m Terez - long enough for you to sneak in ahead of me (damn you!).

As for foreshadowing - Remember Min saying something along the lines of "There are so many sparks it's a wonder the inn doesn't catch fire" in TEotW? RJ's foreshadowings aren't always as blatant as "You could be the Amyrlin one day".
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  #435  
Old 01-14-2012, 05:07 AM
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Does spilling secrets to Asmodean about Rhuidean and the artifacts hidden there (including the Choedan Kal) count as a betrayal?
  #436  
Old 01-14-2012, 06:46 AM
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Mat's betrayal may be the thing that's needed to win, by a route not thought of beforehand.
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