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  #21  
Old 02-17-2012, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
If Elza's power snaps away at the point where Cads aims the circle at Dashiva, we (as the reader) could then guess that one of the BA oaths is 'Never harm a Forsaken' or something similar.
Considering the fact that we already have a case of Liandrin (and the others of the Keystone Coven, apparently) trying to stab Moghedien in the back, I think that we can rule out a "do not attack Forsaken" clause without searching for indirect evidence.
  #22  
Old 02-17-2012, 06:10 AM
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Considering the fact that we already have a case of Liandrin (and the others of the Keystone Coven, apparently) trying to stab Moghedien in the back, I think that we can rule out a "do not attack Forsaken" clause without searching for indirect evidence.
True. But beside my question, at least. In the loosest sense, I wondered if there was a way to accurately extrapolate the Black oaths from the text.
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Like say a situation... contain(ing) a lot of if's, and is almost entirely made up... poorly
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Let's say, for a moment, that one of the Black oaths forbids interference with a Forsaken's plans (this doesn't seem to be the case, but it really is beside my point)...Any circle (Black sisters) were in might have strange properties
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  #23  
Old 02-17-2012, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Considering the fact that we already have a case of Liandrin (and the others of the Keystone Coven, apparently) trying to stab Moghedien in the back, I think that we can rule out a "do not attack Forsaken" clause without searching for indirect evidence.
I wasn't insinuating that this was something we could actually extrapolate from the text. It was just a hypothetical situation in response to The Unreasoner.
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  #24  
Old 02-17-2012, 07:35 AM
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I don't think the Black Oaths would stop a BA member from doing anything that a typical normal AS would be able to do in circumstances where she's observed. If there were a marked difference, then the BA would have been discovered long ago already.
So while it is an interesting approach, I don't think it will lead anywhere at all.
  #25  
Old 02-17-2012, 07:56 AM
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I don't think the Black Oaths would stop a BA member from doing anything that a typical normal AS would be able to do in circumstances where she's observed. If there were a marked difference, then the BA would have been discovered long ago already.
So while it is an interesting approach, I don't think it will lead anywhere at all.
That's a reasonable assumption. But:
-The non-DF Aes Sedai have a long and proud tradition of not connecting the dots under their noses

-The world is different now: The Forsaken are loose, circles are more prevalent and in more varied uses (other than the obvious healing/demonstration), and the Pattern might have not 'needed' to expose the BA before.

Hypothetically, if one Oath is to not give a Forsaken a haircut with the Power, this really isn't the sort of thing that could have just come about already (especially since everyone 'knew' Baalzamon was the DO)
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Old 02-17-2012, 08:36 AM
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Hypothetically, if one Oath is to not give a Forsaken a haircut with the Power, this really isn't the sort of thing that could have just come about already (especially since everyone 'knew' Baalzamon was the DO)
True, but that would mean that for thousands of years, one third of the dark oaths had been wasted.

And who would have stuck such an oath into the mix?
I doubt it would have been Isha'mael. As you point out, he wouldn't have been worried over backstabbing anyway.
I doubt it would have been BA members themselves. They would have wanted to be able to rise in the ranks, after all.
It wouldn't have been the DO. He wants his underlings to compete, so that the strongest survive.
  #27  
Old 02-17-2012, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Precisely. Not sure what kind of glasses ishara was wearing, it seems I was quite clear.
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True. But beside my question, at least. In the loosest sense, I wondered if there was a way to accurately extrapolate the Black oaths from the text.
To be fair, you didn't actually come out with the point of all of the what ifs until post 228. To get an answer to the question you'd like answered you actually need to articulate it effectively.

As it stands guys, one or two more posts on the subject gets it moved to its own thread...
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  #28  
Old 02-17-2012, 10:06 AM
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(I think this might be the one that drives it into newthreadom )

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
True, but that would mean that for thousands of years, one third of the dark oaths had been wasted.
That's if we assume that the BA oaths are indeed Three to parallel the AS oaths. They probably are - it is the magic number in this series after all. But anywho...

I was just gathering up the odd quotes about the BA oaths and of course came to Verin's chapter in TGS. She points twice to the oath about not betraying the Dark One:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS - Chapter 39: A Visit from Verin Sedai
"The oaths one makes to the Great Lord are quite specific," she finally continued. "And, when they are placed upon one who can channel, they are quite binding. Impossible to break. You can double-cross other Dark-friends, you can turn against the Chosen if you can justify it. Selfishness must be preserved. But you can never betray him. You can never betray the order itself to outsiders. But the oaths are specific. Very specific." She looked up, meeting Egwene's eyes. " 'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.' That was what I promised. Do you see?"
Verin has given us an idea of what might be contained in a BA oath... as well as a couple of clauses "very specific" and "(on a channeler)impossible to break".

(Side note: but not impossible to circumvent the Oath's intention, Verin? By using that awesome loophole that you Brown Ajah'd with your epic Brown Ajahness?)

So now, we have that line "turn against the Chosen if you can justify it" obviously isn't an oath but it is a leading point to an different oath, maybe if as you suggest, it could have been Ishamael who applied the original oaths, so it could be something along the lines of: 'Obey the Chosen unless their actions contradict the wishes of the Great Lord' or something.

In this, Liandran seemingly did use justification before her attempt on Moghedien:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGH - Chapter 18: A Hound of Darkness
"We await orders from the Tower, Great Misteress"... If their failure was anyone's fault it was Moghedien's herself... "We have been given great responsibilities, great works to perform, and surely we will be commanded to continue -"

Moghedien cut her off sharply. "You serve whichever of the Chosen chooses to snap you up....

Perhaps the woman truly was in flight from the other Forsaken. To hand her over to them would surely earn her a high place. She might even become one of them. She had a trick, learned in childhood. And she could touch the Source.
But our main discussion is whether there is a situation in which a BA can be exposed due to her Oath.

I come back to Verin:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS - Chapter 39: A Visit from Verin Sedai
'I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death.' That was what I promised. Do you see?"
Very specific that bolded bit, it brings be back again to Elza and the Callandor Wielder's (Awesome name for a female fronted rock trio.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by WH - Chapter 35: With the Choedan Kal
Whatever the cost, the Dragon Reborn had to reach the Last Battle. Whatever the cost...
...Today, she had been forced to fight the Chosen. Surely the Great Lord would understand if she had actually killed any of them
This comes down to the nature of belief.
Elza is obviously a very Dark-One-devoted BA. She has killed Forsaken, protected Rand while he cleansed Saidin, helped imprison Forsaken (well she was complicit in Semi's imprisonment as well as escape but we won't split hairs.) But it seems that up until she is working with Semi she is acting from a specific (slightly Moridin sounding) set of instructions. She is not in her belief betraying the DO.

This is like how Verin had belief in that specific arrangement to her Oath, so was able to let spill in the 'hour of her death'. Or how a Saildar Aes Sedai making the statement "Suian Sanche is dead." is telling her truthful belief, it is a lie, or rather a falsity, but not to her.

So now I take it this way. (You are going to hate me for this)

If Elza wasn't controlling the weaves but was in a circle with another BA unbeknownst to her.

And if her belief in the 'don't betray the DO' but following an order to make sure Rand got to the last battle was rock solid.

IF that secondary BA suddenly directed the flow at Rand.

Would Elza's oath kick in drop her out of the circle??



Kidding.


But seriously, I don't buy the whole "BA would have been discovered long ago" thing.

The last time there has been a situation in which the BA would operate markedly different would be the Trolloc War’s. So there would be no true reason or situation wherein the BA would actively expose themselves in a day-to-day basis type way.

Which is why I am offering up the loony situations
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  #29  
Old 02-17-2012, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Dajoran View Post
That's if we assume that the BA oaths are indeed Three to parallel the AS oaths. They probably are - it is the magic number in this series after all. But anywho...
It sort of makes sense.

Especially in the light of the following, which is from Galina's POV:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACoS, Chapter 40, Spears
She would be rescued eventually, of course; she knew that. The Tower would not allow a sister to remain in captivity. Elaida would not allow a Red to be held. Surely Alviarin would send rescue. Someone would, anyone, to save her from these monsters, especially from Therava. She would promise anything for that deliverance. She would even keep those promises. She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at that moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue. Any promise, to anyone who would free her. Even a man.
Anyhow ...

Quote:
The last time there has been a situation in which the BA would operate markedly different would be the Trolloc War’s. So there would be no true reason or situation wherein the BA would actively expose themselves in a day-to-day basis type way.
They might also have been acting differently when Ishamael was running around, whispering in Hawkwing's ear.

And right around Rand's birth, until Ishamael put a stop to that.
  #30  
Old 02-17-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
It sort of makes sense.

Especially in the light of the following, which is from Galina's POV:

Anyhow ...
Touché!
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  #31  
Old 02-17-2012, 10:54 AM
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There are indeed 3 black ajah oaths (this is Galina Casban's POV):

Quote:
Crown of Swords CHAPTER: 40 - Spears
She would be rescued eventually, of course; she knew that. The Tower would not allow a sister to remain in captivity. Elaida would not allow a Red to be held. Surely Alviarin would send rescue. Someone would, anyone, to save her from these monsters, especially from Therava. She would promise anything for that deliverance. She would even keep those promises. She had been broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity, but at that moment she truly believed she would keep her word, if it brought rescue. Any promise, to anyone who would free her. Even a man.
It would have been interesting if Seaine and company tried to use the Black Ajah oaths in this manner to try to reveal them, though it would have been kind of reckless as opposed to the means they used. AFAIK, they never even bothered to learn what the BA oaths are. But then again, Egwene, with some wicked cleverness, used their lack of 3 oaths to trip up Sheriam.

However, it may be a moot point to have Black Ajah sisters hypothetically slip up while part of a circle. Since at least some of them know a trick for forcing someone into a circle (for interrogation/punishment/torture/what have you), perhaps some of them know a trick for extracting themselves from a circle as well though I'm sure they would only use this in extreme circumstances.

Quote:
Path of Daggers CHAPTER: 2 - Unweaving
He was about to turn away when the outlines of the gateway suddenly began to flex and tremble. Transfixed, he watched until the opening simply—melted. He had never been a man to give way to obscenities, but several rose in his mind. What had the woman done? These barbarous rustics offered too many surprises. A way to Heal being severed, however imperfectly. That was impossible! Except that they had done it. Involuntary rings. Those Warders and the bond they shared with their Aes Sedai. He had known of that for a long, long time, but whenever he thought he had the measure of them, these primitives revealed some new skill, did something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of. Something the pinnacle of civilization had not known! What had the girl done?
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  #32  
Old 02-17-2012, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
However, it may be a moot point to have Black Ajah sisters hypothetically slip up while part of a circle. Since at least some of them know a trick for forcing someone into a circle (for interrogation/punishment/torture/what have you), perhaps some of them know a trick for extracting themselves from a circle as well though I'm sure they would only use this in extreme circumstances.
I was lead to believe that 'involuntary rings' were the a'dam?
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  #33  
Old 02-17-2012, 11:12 AM
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I was lead to believe that 'involuntary rings' were the a'dam?
Forgot, there is also this more explicit quote:

Quote:
Knife of Dreams CH: PROLOGUE - Embers Falling on Dry Grass
What they had learned about the Black Ajah's means of putting someone to the question was as nauseating as it was incredible. Forcing a woman into a circle against her will? Guiding a circle to inflict pain? Pevara felt her stomach writhing. "Talene doesn't think she's to be honored or given an assignment," Yukiri went on, "so she begged to be hidden away. Saerin put her in a room in the lowest basement. Talene may be wrong, but I agree with Saerin. Risking it would be letting a dog into the chicken yard and hoping for the best."
I think that Moridin was thinking about this and not the a'dam, since technically, the sul'dam/damane link is not a true circle.
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  #34  
Old 02-17-2012, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
Forgot, there is also this more explicit quote:
Ah cheers! I am guilty of skimming the Pevara POV's during rereads. There is just something about them that sends me into a daydream read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WinespringBrother View Post
I think that Moridin was thinking about this and not the a'dam, since technically, the sul'dam/damane link is not a true circle.
I can see where you are coming from - but I see the a'dam as representing a true circle. The laws by which it can be used - as well as what it ultimately leads to...

I think for that Moridin POV it's a distinction in each persons reading. I would see what what was described in the quote you used as a Forced Circle, and an a'dam as an Involuntary Circle. But that is neither here nor there...

I see what you are saying now, that if this is a known skill of the BA then my earlier loonies are moot.

Gotcha!
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  #35  
Old 02-17-2012, 04:56 PM
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We know that there are three Black Oaths from Galina, but we also know that there probably has to be three to have the equivalent effect on aging. So...having one useless Oath might not be seen as a total loss. Especially if people overthink it: 'Why would they make us swear to not give the Chosen a haircut...unless their release is imminent?
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  #36  
Old 02-17-2012, 11:00 PM
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the a'dam actually raises interesting possibilities:
slap a collar on an Aes Sedai, and have the sul'dam try to make a Power-wrought sword.

Instant Darkfriend test.
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