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  #81  
Old 02-09-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
You know, that scene always bothered me. This actually explains it pretty well, though it doesn't explain how he missed some other DFs. Moreover, somehow the Forsaken must be able to mask their Darkness, else Selene wouldn't have been a surprise (not to mention Dashiva).

As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.
Possible explanation for the Forsaken: Selene was never with Rand around people for long enough to have an effect (note that Lanfear is actually quite careful about avoiding people in TGH; perhaps this is why). By the time Dashiva showed up, Rand was getting to the point where he was so paranoid he was causing the darkness effect himself, so there was no need to mask it.
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  #82  
Old 02-09-2012, 01:58 PM
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Moreover, somehow the Forsaken must be able to mask their Darkness, else Selene wouldn't have been a surprise (not to mention Dashiva).
Selene had two very good distractions. Dashiva...well, by the time he came on the scene, Rand ignored any of his instincts about male channelers because he associates them with LTT wanting to kill every last one of them.
  #83  
Old 02-09-2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.
And what happened to Torkumen disproves the theory that the "darkness" Min saw around Bashere indicated he was a DF.
  #84  
Old 02-09-2012, 03:59 PM
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And what happened to Torkumen disproves the theory that the "darkness" Min saw around Bashere indicated he was a DF.
Pshaww.

Clearly Bashere went over to the shadow when he visited the lady Suroth with that Karldin fellow, revealing the location of the Lord Dragon to one of the Forsaken. Likely he met with the Lady Tuon's Truthspeaker and found her quite . . . compelling.

No doubt this Karldin fellow is trustworthy despite his constant scowling and his Aes Sedai's black moods sharp as a spinning knife, but Bashere should be exiled or executed.
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  #85  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:07 PM
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Selene had two very good distractions. Dashiva...well, by the time he came on the scene, Rand ignored any of his instincts about male channelers because he associates them with LTT wanting to kill every last one of them.
Hmm...don't really buy it about Selene. A better option is subtle Compulsion. But he still got no weird vibe from her even up until the point that she revealed herself.

No way he was too busy being slackjawed to just ignore his spidey-sense.
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  #86  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:11 PM
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And what happened to Torkumen disproves the theory that the "darkness" Min saw around Bashere indicated he was a DF.
On the other hand, there's still Compulsion, which is potentially just as destructive as an actual DF betrayal.

Something to consider: All the simping Bashere does during the books about Tenobia having his head, as if he isn't a Great General capable of making serious decisions and then accepting the consequences...

... might that be his subconscious trying to worm a way around a Compulsion - to stay with Rand and betray him at an opportune moment?
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  #87  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:22 PM
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All the simping Bashere does during the books about Tenobia having his head, as if he isn't a Great General capable of making serious decisions and then accepting the consequences...
That's actually...a really good point I hadn't thought about before. Contrast with Yoeli in ToM, who basically does what he has to and disobeys orders, fully expecting to confess and be hung for it afterwards. Is Bashere a really bad Saldaean, or had that particular trait not been established yet? Or is Yoeli just weird?
  #88  
Old 02-09-2012, 04:40 PM
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No, I considered it a casual remark made for Rand's benefit the first time Bashere said it. After all, that -is- important information, that his former liege will probably have his head for failing to obey and that Rand may have to intercede.

After the first time, however, it just came across as strange and kind of whiny, as if we should be sympathetic to him.

Strange, because it seems to me that a requisite of being a Great Captain is to be able to accept the consequences of what you've done so that you can learn from it and avoid doing the same thing again later.
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  #89  
Old 02-09-2012, 05:44 PM
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No, I considered it a casual remark made for Rand's benefit the first time Bashere said it. After all, that -is- important information, that his former liege will probably have his head for failing to obey and that Rand may have to intercede.

After the first time, however, it just came across as strange and kind of whiny, as if we should be sympathetic to him.

Strange, because it seems to me that a requisite of being a Great Captain is to be able to accept the consequences of what you've done so that you can learn from it and avoid doing the same thing again later.
So who Compelled him? Demandred? Or...is Tenobia one of the Chosen?
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  #90  
Old 02-09-2012, 06:23 PM
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I never got the feeling Bashere was whining. It just came off as realistic.

And Yoeli has a whole different amount of power compared to Bashere. Yoeli wasn't even a noble, Bashere was Tenobia's cousin, a powerful lord in his own right. I doubt accepting beheading for a politically and morally correct choice even occurred to him.
  #91  
Old 02-09-2012, 10:52 PM
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So who Compelled him? Demandred? Or...is Tenobia one of the Chosen?
My guess? Either Ishamael did it after Taim defeated Bashere the first time around, or Demandred did it sometime just before TFoH when Tenobia sent Bashere after Taim yet again.

Probably the reason Taim mocks Bashere - despite being a Great General, the man has never succeeded in defeating him.

Might even have been Semi when Bashere had his meeting with Suroth.

Actually, Compulsion seems to work better from women, I understand? and Demandred had the benefit of an alliance with Mesaana and Semirhage to pull that off if need be.

So, any of those five. Because honestly, it makes sense from a tactical perspective, when a big battle is coming, to either take the greatest generals off the field or turn them to your side.
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  #92  
Old 02-10-2012, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Crispin's Crispian View Post
As an aside, I was thinking last night that the Weiramon scene in ToM all but disproves the Dark Min (and Dark Rhuarc) theory. Plus anyone else who was with him in the scene.
You have a point with Rhuarc. But as for Min: did Rand ever look at her eyes?
  #93  
Old 02-18-2012, 01:33 PM
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You have a point with Rhuarc. But as for Min: did Rand ever look at her eyes?
Yes he did every single night he spent with her. Unless they have some kind of weird no eye contact rule.
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  #94  
Old 02-18-2012, 01:46 PM
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Yes he did every single night he spent with her. Unless they have some kind of weird no eye contact rule.
Nah, that was Mat and Tylin.
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  #95  
Old 02-18-2012, 02:17 PM
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Yes he did every single night he spent with her. Unless they have some kind of weird no eye contact rule.
Well, Rand does seem to provide us with far more frequent descriptions of her hips and of the shortness of her coats than of her eyes...
 


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