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  #21  
Old 02-19-2012, 03:47 AM
missbee missbee is offline
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@ fionwe1987
Having re-read the chapter, I think there is plenty of wiggle room in the wording.
Min doesn't know where Rand is, just that he is north somewhere. That could be because he is far away, or because the bond is masked.
In fact, I have to take back my comment about it just being sunny that day - the description is actually very specific, it can only be Rand

Quote:
Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting
Someone asked about why the clouds are clearing and whether they were clearing around the certain of the important women in the story. Brandon said that the clouds are clearing around Rand, but it has not been specified whether that's because of ta'veren, the Fisher King or another reason entirely.
He said that the clouds had cleared over Aviendha in the Waste and we have not seen whether the clouds have cleared over Tuon, but Tuon is still somewhat behind the other characters at the end of Towers of Midnight. He also said the clouds have not cleared over Seandar.
I think the description was 'just over Caemlyn' rather than 'perfectly aligned'. There is no way anyone could judge just how well the clouds were aligned from ground level.
Neither is it necessary for Rand to sit still for hours, even if the patch was so regular and precise that its centre moved with every step he took, he'd still have to move quite some distance before you'd notice the effect at ground level. And, we don't know how long the patch persists after Rand has left.
.

Last edited by missbee; 02-20-2012 at 04:50 PM.
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  #22  
Old 02-19-2012, 04:24 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missbee View Post
@ fionwe1987
Having re-read the chapter, I think there is plenty of wiggle room in the wording.
Min doesn't know where Rand is, just that he is north somewhere. That could be because he is far away, or because the bond is masked.
When the bond is masked, it is masked. You can't tell anything about the location of the masked person. Further, Min can also determine the distance, roughly:

Min turned her eyes northward again, into the distant, cloud-smothered haze. As far as
she could determine through the bond, she was looking directly at him. Was he in Andor,
perhaps? Or in the Borderlands?


He's at least as far away as Andor, not located in Tear!

Quote:
In fact, I have to take back my comment about it just being sunny that day - the description is actually very specific, it can only be Rand
You seem to have completely misread Brandon's statement. He states clearly that the clouds did clear over Aviendha in the Waste! The doubt is if it cleared over Tuon, and from what we have seen, there's no reason to suspect it will.

Quote:
I think the description was 'just over Caemlyn' rather than 'perfectly aligned'. There is no way anyone could judge just how well the clouds were aligned from ground level.
Neither is it necessary for Rand to sit still for hours, even if the patch was so regular and precise that its centre moved with every step he took, he'd still have to move quite some distance before you'd notice the effect at ground level. And, we don't know how long the patch persists after Rand has left.
Not the way these rings are described. They're perfect circles, which means they have a very clear edge, and if that edge moves, people can easily notice.
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2012, 08:09 AM
missbee missbee is offline
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When the bond is masked, it is masked. You can't tell anything about the location of the masked person.
How do you know that? We know that partial bonding by the bond holder is possible (Alanna) and as far as I remember there is no mention of what is possible for the bondee. Not to mention the fact that there is no precedent for the situation where it is the bondee who can channel instead of the bond holder, or that the bondee happens to be the Dragon

Quote:
Further, Min can also determine the distance, roughly
All we can say from this is that she thinks Rand is somewhere to the north. As far as judging distances, have you looked at the relative distances between Caemlyn and Tear and then between Caemlyn and the Borderlands? I know you said 'roughly', but with that much margin for error he could be anywhere. Or, Rand could be messing with the bond.

When asked whether the clouds clear around certain women Brandon says the clouds clear around Rand. That seems pretty clear - Rand, not the women, is followed by his own patch of sunshine
Yes, the clouds had cleared over Aviendha in the Waste - ie there was a point where the clouds had cleared above Aviendha, but they do not continuously clear around her the way they do for Rand.
Putting the two together, I would say the simplest explanation is that Rand paid a visit to Rhuidean while Avi was there.

Quote:
Not the way these rings are described. They're perfect circles, which means they have a very clear edge, and if that edge moves, people can easily notice.
No: relative distances, relative sizes, perspective, angle of view, thickness of cloud cover, shape of cloud edge itself.
Then we get to arguments over whether the patch follows his every step, or just generally hovers around, maybe it hangs around as a sort of blessing on the land after Rand has left?

Meh, foolishness and pure speculation. I can't prove that Rand was in Tear at some point to create the sunshine and you can't prove he wasn't.
That's why I'm going to stick to the simplest interpretation of Brandon's quote and say he was
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  #24  
Old 02-19-2012, 11:23 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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But we see in Gawyn's chapter when he came to Caemlyn that it's been sunny there for a week, ever since Veins of Gold.

Quote:
“I can’t believe how much sunlight we’ve been seeing here. I’d nearly convinced myself that the perpetual gloom was something unnatural.”

“Oh, it probably is,” she said nonchalantly. “A week back the cloud cover in Andor broke around Caemlyn, but nowhere else.”

“But…how?”

She smiled. “Rand. Something he did. He was atop Dragonmount, I think. And then…”
Besides, how likely is that Rand has a way to mask the partially mask the bond so the distance can't be detected? This is not something in which LTT's memories can help.
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  #25  
Old 02-19-2012, 12:58 PM
missbee missbee is offline
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No, LTT can't help with this one, but Alanna does tell him that partial masking is possible (WH25) so it doesn't seem too much of a stretch for him to figure out how.
I interpreted that Caemlyn sunshine as 'normal' and not necessarily constant since Elayne compares it to the specific 'patch' of sunshine earlier. (surely, there must be a neater way of saying that)

Another interesting point, Elayne knows he was atop Dragonmount. Huh? How?
Still, if Elayne can be that specific, then surely Min should be able to tell the difference between Andor and Borderlands from Tear.
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  #26  
Old 02-19-2012, 03:20 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by missbee View Post
How do you know that? We know that partial bonding by the bond holder is possible (Alanna) and as far as I remember there is no mention of what is possible for the bondee. Not to mention the fact that there is no precedent for the situation where it is the bondee who can channel instead of the bond holder, or that the bondee happens to be the Dragon
There's a lot of precedent for that. Look at all the Asha'man AS pairs.

And the partial masking makes it possible to ignore emotions while still detecting location. If you think there's a way to block off distance but not direction, you need to show me some proof.

Quote:
All we can say from this is that she thinks Rand is somewhere to the north. As far as judging distances, have you looked at the relative distances between Caemlyn and Tear and then between Caemlyn and the Borderlands? I know you said 'roughly', but with that much margin for error he could be anywhere. Or, Rand could be messing with the bond.
But that's how the bond always works! The closer you are, the better you can pinpoint location (which is why Elayne can tell Rand was on Dragonmount, while Min thinks he's between Andor and the Borderlands). But there's no way for someone to be in Tear and give someone the impression they're in Andor!

Quote:
When asked whether the clouds clear around certain women Brandon says the clouds clear around Rand. That seems pretty clear - Rand, not the women, is followed by his own patch of sunshine
First, this wasn't even a direct transcript of what he said. Second, he said it cleared around Rand, and around Aviendha in the waste, and probably didn't mention Min or Elayne since it was beyond obvious from the books. Nowhere does he say the clouds clear only around Rand.

Quote:
Yes, the clouds had cleared over Aviendha in the Waste - ie there was a point where the clouds had cleared above Aviendha, but they do not continuously clear around her the way they do for Rand.
That's your interpretation, and not at all obvious from the statement.

Quote:
Putting the two together, I would say the simplest explanation is that Rand paid a visit to Rhuidean while Avi was there.
Okay... you see you have to increasingly create situations with no evidence to back up your point right? Rand was in Caemlyn for a week, Rand was doing something to the bond so Min thought he was far away when in fact he was nearby, Rand made a trip to Rhuidean... By Occam's Razor, my explanation is simpler. Not to mention actually supported by the text.

Quote:
No: relative distances, relative sizes, perspective, angle of view, thickness of cloud cover, shape of cloud edge itself.
Not sure what you mean here...

Quote:
Then we get to arguments over whether the patch follows his every step, or just generally hovers around, maybe it hangs around as a sort of blessing on the land after Rand has left?
It doesn't. The clouds roll back over Tar Valon and Dragonmount after he leaves. The clouds do seem to only hover over Tear and Caemlyn (and presumably the Waste) and not follow Min and Elayne around. The clearest indication of this is that when Elayne gets to Merrilor, the clouds don't clear. They do so when Rand appears.

Quote:
Meh, foolishness and pure speculation. I can't prove that Rand was in Tear at some point to create the sunshine and you can't prove he wasn't.
That's why I'm going to stick to the simplest interpretation of Brandon's quote and say he was
I can prove he wasn't in Tear. Min says he was far away. To disprove that, you need to invent the ability to tweak the bond to misinform someone of location, and there's zero evidence for that being possible. And yours isn't the simpler explanation by a long stretch! You need to create all sorts of situations and abilities to interpret Brandon's statement the way you're doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by missbee View Post
Another interesting point, Elayne knows he was atop Dragonmount. Huh? How?
Still, if Elayne can be that specific, then surely Min should be able to tell the difference between Andor and Borderlands from Tear.
Not true. The location detection of a bond strengthens when you're closer.
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  #27  
Old 02-20-2012, 08:38 PM
missbee missbee is offline
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-So we agree with me that partial bonding exists.
-Are you saying that the Asha'man/AS pairs provide a precedent for a non channelling bond holder(Min) and the Dragon? really?
-As I have said before, there is no proof of what can be done with the bond. I am speculating that Rand has worked out how to mess with the bond enough to enable him to conceal his whereabouts when he wants to. I believe this explains the various random patches of sunshine.
-Yes I agree that the closer you are the easier it is to pinpoint someone. I suggest you actually look at a map here.
The one I'm looking at shows the distance from Caemlyn to Dragonmount as being roughly the same as from Tear to Andor.
Elayne was able to pinpoint Rand to the top of a specific mountain at this distance. By that example Min should at least be able to tell if Rand is in Andor or not. She can't. In fact, going by the relative distances she is considering, she hasn't a clue how far away he is. Hence my conclusion that something funky is going on.
-If you have a reference for a direct transcript I'll be very happy to check it out. In the meantime, I'll make do with what we have.
I'm not even sure why you're arguing with me here or what it is that you think is way beyond obvious
We assume that the patch above Rand is constant, I take the quote to mean that Avi's patch is not, and, we definitely know that the patches appearing around the other girls are not - It rains regularly in Caemlyn and there is a strong implication that the patch of sun in Tear only appeared 3 days after VoG (Min comments on the locals' reactions) I know there are other theories around, but I think the simplest way to explain the timing and location of the patches is that they have nothing to do with the girls at all, but are caused by Rand.
-Creating situations? I don't think the idea that Rand actually went places whilst off-screen is all that difficult to believe.
Nor do I think it is too much to believe that it might have occurred to Rand (the way to occurred to us readers many books ago) that having 4 people who can track him might be a security risk. Maybe he just wanted to have some privacy. Hell, for all I know he may not even need to learn to mask the bond at all - maybe it's the pattern giving him protection so that the FS don't find him. Anyway, Rand knows it is possible to partially mask the bond, he has plenty of reasons to do so and considering some of the other weaves invented by the main characters, I'd say this is small fry
-I never said Rand was in Caemlyn for a week.
-I don't know what your explanation is because you've not offered one. All you've done is attack mine.
-Relative distances, relative sizes, perspective, angle of view, thickness of cloud cover, shape of cloud edge itself are all factors you may wish to consider before claiming that you can see an edge of cloud move every time Rand takes a step, as per your earlier post.
-I think you may have misunderstood my point there, I was saying that we do not have enough information to judge Rand's movements by the sunshine patch alone. Yes, the clouds come back when he leaves, but we don't know if they do so immediately.
-Now I'm confused. You say here that the patches of sunshine do not follow the girls, yet earlier you seemed to say they did.
-No, you can not prove Rand wasn't in Tear. You'd be trying to prove a negative, we simply do not have the information.

And, to finish off, I will add that I find it suggestive that when Rand appeared in Tear he did so in the north quarter of the city rather than the Travelling room in the Stone.
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  #28  
Old 02-23-2012, 06:44 AM
missbee missbee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
missbee, do you happen to have a list of internal contradictions? I found a few when I was trying to make a timeline, but didn't note them down. I need to go back through those books again and note those contradictions, but I'd need to start taking notes with COT and KOD to work it all out.
Here is the list. I had hoped to find the original running list I kept whilst making the spreadsheet but I can't find it. So this list is from memory and almost certainly incomplete.
I've taken 'several' to mean 3 or 4 and 'few' to mean 3 - except where noted below. I've used the same references as on the spreadsheet and PoVs are in bold.

729 - KOD pr/22 Suroth has been looking for Tuon for '17 days' and Furyk left town '9 days' ago doesn't square with 720 - 4/180 Furik PoV or 719 - 4/169 Furyk PoV.
770 - 19/307 Tuon has taken 7 days to reach Ebou Dar which seems waaay too short to me. But both Mat's and Tuon's timelines are so firmly tied in to other events and timelines that it is impossible to make her trip last longer. Shorter, yes, but not longer. I suspect this ties in to Mat's 20 day hitch, but I'm not sure.
785 - TGS 3/73 Avi is running from Caemlyn to see Rand in Arad Doman, which is contradicted by Rand in 748 - KOD 27/599 when he thinks that Avi is already in Arad Doman - this needs checking but my daughter has stolen the book off me and I can't, for now.
792 - TGS 28/463 Mat - Trustair is described as '20 leagues away' by the Hinderstap mayor, but 10 days later Mat is still 'half a day' away. Even allowing for the 'hard ride' it apparently was (TGS 34) and for delays in finding someone to draw a map this seems too long
793 - TOM 2/60 Perrin - described as 'over a month/few weeks since he's left Malden'. I have it at 43 days after Malden which stretches the description, but I feel that Perrin's timeline afterwards is also stretched so I have left it there. It could be pushed back to 790, but then Perrin stalling 'last several' days (802 to 809 - TOM 16/230 Faile) stretches from 7 days to 10.
815 - TOM 29/461 Perrin lets Tam go to Tear via a gateway, even though Slayer's dreamspike is in place the day before. (719 - 28/438 Perrin ) But this can probably be fudged around since we don't know exactly where the gateway was.
815 - TGS 44/735 Nyn - 'during the past week' Nyn had been trying to question Cad. I believe this refers to events after Rand balefired Natrin's Barrow (806 - 37/601 Min) when Nyn went to see Cad to demand what her plans were 9 days before (not 10)
829 - TOM 47/706 Perrin, Mat and Thom catch up. Mat hasn't seen Verin for 'over two weeks'. I've made it 27 days. This is so tightly tied to so many other PoVs that I've been unable to make it any shorter without causing problems elsewhere
833 - TOM 53/777 Perrin arrives at FoM. IIRC he sees Bryne's troops there. It may be that the troops arrived early to prepare, just like Perrin, but they are seen still working on palisades in (56/814 Eg) which is a bit odd.
I am reasonably sure Perrin did arrive early at FoM because he talks of training troops while they still have time and sends off for more soldiers. But 833 seems too early. As before though, this is tied so firmly into other events that I can't move the date forward without making Mat's ride to Trustair even longer than it is.
844 - TOM 57/821 Mat's exit from ToG could be anywhere between 833 and 844

Terez, I still have your email address from the Great Hunt, so I can send you a copy of the spreadsheet for reference if you like. I find it much easier to read than the one on Google docs. Just let me know if you want ods or xls format.

I'd appreciate it if you could let me know when you find any other anomalies. Thanks.

Edit: just remembered another - there is/was debate regarding the order of Moridin's PoVs at TPOD Pr and ch 2 (ie. should they be reversed so that chronologically ch 2 comes before the Pr.) Personally I can understand why they would be reversed and have no problem with it.

Last edited by missbee; 02-23-2012 at 08:32 AM.
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