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  #61  
Old 03-16-2012, 08:53 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
There's an additional possibility that the ability to sense the opposite Power is different between women and men. I don't support that idea, but it's an additional possibility - given that the two circles we're considering are led by different genders.
The only thing which might suggest that is that men can sense it when women channel, but women can't sense when men channel. Would that really be sufficient to suggest such a difference?
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  #62  
Old 03-16-2012, 09:09 AM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
The only thing which might suggest that is that men can sense it when women channel, but women can't sense when men channel. Would that really be sufficient to suggest such a difference?
Not sufficient to prove it, just to offer it as a possibility, if we're making a comprehensive list.
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  #63  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by The Unreasoner View Post
Well, Gonzo may be a bit overbold in pushing 'false', but we're all biased. Even you, you seem to want it (1) to be true, to the point of briefly entertaining the notion that its crazy offspring (2) has any real merit.

But let's take a look at some points you raised:

Or any woman at all. Aran'gar is some sort of unnatural creature, a sort of Forsaken Frankenstein in the WoT universe. It would be more accurate to say that 'a woman channeling saidin looks like a woman with her ability masked using reversed flows' then the other way around. Have you ever heard of someone describing horses as unicorns without horns?


Daighan is actually quite intelligent, if Cadsuane can be trusted. And Daighan's argument is more accurately 'my saidin-channeling Warder tells me this woman is channeling saidin.'



A few points you overlooked for (1):

Nowhere in any book has anyone been able to see weaves of the opposite gender. Ever. The only possible exception I know of is Rand, who had a vague impression of the nature of the saidar weave.

Something this profound would undoubtedly cause comment. But never have we heard someone notice the lack after the circle breaks, or even note it at all.

I cannot imagine why it would be possible to notice weaves of the opposite gender yet not sense the Power within them (which is how Aran'gar was detected).

Less compelling, but still worth noting, is Aran'gar. Why reverse her webs but not mask her Power?

Okay, so why do I want (1) to be true. I will admit that I would prefer it if characters could see flows of the other side of the Power while in a link with members of the opposite sex. But why? Well, the answer to this is that I expect the authors I like to remember things they've said in previous books and to not contradict themselves. Brandon talked about this in a blog post that he called Sanderson's first rule. That rule goes as follows:

"A character's ability to use magic to solve a problem is directly related to how well the audience understands the magic in question."

If you start changing the rules of your magic system five books into a series - or add new powers that we've never seen before - it starts to look as if you're pulling ideas out of thin air and it borders on deus ex machina. But more to the point, when you make new rules to a magic system, they can't contradict the rules that you have already established.

So, let's look at some of the things that Rj has told us about channeling.

"A woman cannot teach a man to channel any more than a fish can teach a bird to swim."

Okay, so this establishes saidin and saidar as two entirely separate things. The methodologies of one are entirely inapplicable to the other. Okay, fair enough. No problem so far.

"The greatest works of the Age of Legends were accomplished by men and women working together with the One Power."


Okay, sounds good. But how does that work with what we already know about channeling? Well, if men and women are going to work together, there has to be a method for synchronizing their efforts.

Rj gave us the link.

Okay, that works. But now we have

"Only one person can lead a circle at any given time."

Okay, well the person leading the circle will either be male or female and thus only thoroughly knowledgeable in one side of the Power. But if men and women are going to work together, then whoever is leading the circle will have to work with both sides of the Power or else what's the point of working together? If they're going to make a weave of strictly saidar, then why bother including men in the link? If just saidin, then why bother linking at all? If raw power is an issue, then simply give the man a sa'angreal and let him do whatever he needs to do.

No, the only point to a link that includes both men and women is to craft weaves that include threads of both saidin and saidar. Otherwise the link serves no purpose. So, this brings us back to our original problem Whoever leads the link will have to work with both sides of the Power. So, the only logical conclusion here is that it must be possible for man to learn how to weave saidar and for a woman to learn how to weave saidin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knife of Dreams
They were linked. Nynaeve could tell from the way the flows of saidar moved, stiffly, as though they were being forced into place. Or rather the men were trying to force them. That never worked with the female half of the Power. It was pure Fire and the blazes were ferocious, fiercer than she would have expected from Fire alone. But of course they would be using saidin as well.
Okay, so tell me, how is it that the men can channel flows of saidar - however crudely - if they can't see them? It makes no sense to conclude they can't see their own weaves.

But, now, let's take it a step further. Suppose Nynaeve goes out there and starts blowing up trollocs as well. The Asha'man are still linked to their Aes Sedai... So, why wouldn't they be able to see Nynaeve's weaves? It's all the same substance. It's all saidar. So, if we conclude that the Asha'man can see weaves of saidar that they channel via a link - and concluding oterwise results in a contradiction so big it makes my head hurt - why wouldn't they also be able to see weaves of saidar channeled by someone else?
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  #64  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:28 PM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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It may be that if a man is leading the circle, then saidar just more or less automatically fits in with what he's doing. And same with a woman leading a circle with one or more men in it, for her 'shaping' saidar is needed, and saidin will then supplement that.
Then, when a channeler has done this often enough, he or she can get a knack for it, an ability to direct the opposite type of Power more accurately to what is wanted than would happen automatically.

That actually fits in with what happened when Perrin's hammer was made: none of the channnelers really knew what they were doing then, so they couldn't have directed it deliberately.
It also fits Semirhage's problem of making saidin do as she wanted when she had Rand leashed: she had to do it all based on memory and guesswork.
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  #65  
Old 03-18-2012, 12:42 PM
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Unwoven, raw Power may function very similarly to stem cells. Which both makes some sense and is the best possible scenario for my original hypothesis.
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  #66  
Old 03-18-2012, 02:49 PM
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I agree with his reasoning, but not his conclusion. If the flows looked forced and stiff, it's because the men were weaving them directly; the Power wasn't magically filling in the gaps.

When Moiraine (et. al.) said that a woman can't teach a man to channel, it would have been more accurate to say that no LIVING woman could teach a man to channel, since they had never handled Saidin either. The link functions to protect the passive channeler from overdrawing the power. Presumably, this should make it safe for a man to learn Saidar from testing in a circle (or a woman to learn Saidin). The passive member can't draw enough to hurt him- or herself, and the leader of the circle should only be subject to injury from his or her own side of the power only.

However, since Aes Sedai don't frequently link with channeling men to experiment, Moiraine probably didn't know that.

Now, I agree that, in order to weave the opposite-gender Power in a circle, the leader must at least get some impression of the opposite power. However, it's not a given that the impression is visual, or of a similar nature to the way one's own side of the Power looks. It could be faint, or a non-visual impression, or intuitive, or tactile.

And I very much doubt that that impression would survive the discontinuation of the circle. I see no reason whatsoever to believe that it would.
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  #67  
Old 03-18-2012, 02:51 PM
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On a related topic, if a woman linked with a man channelling tainted saidin frequently enough, would she took succumb to the taint? The answer to this question may lead us towards a better understanding of how the power interacts between genders, thus answering some of the other questions in this thread.
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  #68  
Old 03-18-2012, 03:51 PM
Seth Baker Seth Baker is offline
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
On a related topic, if a woman linked with a man channelling tainted saidin frequently enough, would she took succumb to the taint? The answer to this question may lead us towards a better understanding of how the power interacts between genders, thus answering some of the other questions in this thread.
In that case, I'd answer that the taint still attaches to the man - he's the conduit through which the power is traveling.

We know that buffers exist in circles, like in unflawed sa'angreal. And Callandor, without the buffer, is the only one that magnifies the taint. So it would stand to reason that when a man uses an angreal, he's getting the taint from his own strength, but not from the strength added by the angreal.

In a circle, led by a woman and containing a man, the strength added by the man should not taint the woman, since he's functioning like a properly buffered angreal. When the circle is formed, it is formed by the leader seizing the power through another channeler like one would seize the power through an angreal. So, instead, the taint would attach to him, since he's the conduit it's passing through.

However, I don't see how this helps us with figuring out the visibility of weaves. The taint comes into effect when someone is drawing on the Power, not when they're weaving flows (which is what we're questioning - can you see opposite-gender flows when you're weaving them?
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  #69  
Old 03-18-2012, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
In that case, I'd answer that the taint still attaches to the man - he's the conduit through which the power is traveling.

We know that buffers exist in circles, like in unflawed sa'angreal. And Callandor, without the buffer, is the only one that magnifies the taint. So it would stand to reason that when a man uses an angreal, he's getting the taint from his own strength, but not from the strength added by the angreal.

In a circle, led by a woman and containing a man, the strength added by the man should not taint the woman, since he's functioning like a properly buffered angreal. When the circle is formed, it is formed by the leader seizing the power through another channeler like one would seize the power through an angreal. So, instead, the taint would attach to him, since he's the conduit it's passing through.

However, I don't see how this helps us with figuring out the visibility of weaves. The taint comes into effect when someone is drawing on the Power, not when they're weaving flows (which is what we're questioning - can you see opposite-gender flows when you're weaving them?
Cadsuane said that Callandor lacked the buffer that makes ordinary sa'angreal safe to use and it magnified the taint:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TPOd, 27, The Bargain
"It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind."
They're two separate phenomena, so there's not necessarily any reason to think that just because a circle is also buffered, the woman has protection from the taint. A lot of people assume she is talking about the same thing (which has always bugged the hell out of me), but she quite clearly is not - lack of a buffer and taint magnification are two distinct problems with using callandor. Magnification of the taint might be a problem caused by all male sa'angreal, but only documented in relation to Callandor. As far as I'm aware, Rand (or any other taint-affect male) never really comments on the taint when using angreal, so there's not really any way of knowing. As for the buffer, I had always assumed it prevented the channeller from burning themselves out while using it, as I can't imagine what "safe to use" would mean otherwise. Presumably that means ordinary *angreal have both a maximum limit and a buffer which prevents the user drawing too much, whereas callandor has only the former.

Anyway, if a woman could be touched by the taint, it would at least demonstrate that phenomena that are meant to only affect males can affect females, and presumably vice versa. This would mean that it is at least possible that men in circles could see weaves of saidar. It is a thought that might give us a clue.
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  #70  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:23 PM
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That wouldn't make any sense. If it did, Rand would have been pretty much instantly insane after starting to use the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean, let alone at the Cleansing.

Callandor is the only sa'angreal mentioned to magnify the taint. In the same breath as talking about it being unbuffered. They're separate issues, but they're related flaws.
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  #71  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seth Baker View Post
Now, I agree that, in order to weave the opposite-gender Power in a circle, the leader must at least get some impression of the opposite power. However, it's not a given that the impression is visual, or of a similar nature to the way one's own side of the Power looks.
Why wouldn't it?

Quote:
It could be faint, or a non-visual impression, or intuitive, or tactile.
Let's have a look at Rand's POV during the cleansing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter's Heart
Awkwardly, forcing himself to work gently, to use the unfamiliar saidar’s own immense strength to guide it as he wanted, he wove a conduit that touched the male half of the Source at one end and the distantly seen city at the other. The conduit had to be of untainted saidar. If this worked as he hoped, a tube of saidin might shatter when the taint began to leech out of it. He thought of it as a tube, at least, though it was not. The weave did not form at all as he expected it to. As if saidar had a mind of its own, the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower.
That seems pretty specific to me. He seems very much aware of how the weave of saidar is forming. I think we can safely say that he can see the flows.
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  #72  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:50 PM
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Okay, Unreasoner, I've been meaning to answer this one for you for a while, but I've been a tad busy these last couple days. So, please forgive the lateness of my reply.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unreasoner
I cannot imagine why it would be possible to notice weaves of the opposite gender yet not sense the Power within them (which is how Aran'gar was detected).

A couple months ago, I read this on the Wheel of Time Wiki.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiki
Men feel women holding the Source as a tingling on their skin, like goosebumps.[1] They can also sense when another man is holding the Power though not in the way women do: a man would describe it as a feeling of awe and menace.
Now, you may recall that I said in an earlier post that Daighan might not have recognized what she was feeling for what it was. So, the fact that she says she felt nothing doesn't mean she actually felt nothing.

By that, I mean this: if semsing a man holding the Power is best described as a feeling of "awe and menace" and Daighan experienced that for the first time while facing a Forsaken, then she may have attributed those feelings to the fact that she was looking at one of the most feared people of all times.

"She[Aran'gar] is a forsaken, of course I'm going to feel awe and menace from her." Daighan may not have recognized those feelings as an indication of male channeling. That (and the fact that Aran'gar might reverse her weaves) is why there are too many variables in this scene to use it as a basis for how links work.

Well, that and the fact that the only perspective we get is Eben's and - not to insult him - but what does he know? His experience with channeling isn't very extensive.
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He bought two fifths of lead-free gasoline.
Said the bottle is dusty, but my engine is clean.
He bought a nice blue suit with the money he could find.
If his bride didn't like it, St. Peter wouldn't mind.

Well, now I lie here so out of breath and... over opiated.
Maybe I couldn't catch up no, but maybe she could have waited.
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  #73  
Old 03-18-2012, 06:52 PM
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That wouldn't make any sense. If it did, Rand would have been pretty much instantly insane after starting to use the Choedan Kal in Rhuidean, let alone at the Cleansing.

Callandor is the only sa'angreal mentioned to magnify the taint. In the same breath as talking about it being unbuffered. They're separate issues, but they're related flaws.
No, they're not related at all. Why build sa'angreal with buffers that prevent the taint from being magnified long before there even is a taint to magnify? Besides which, Cadsuane mentions that the effect of callandor's taint magnification is to induce wildness of the mind - not to instantly turn channellers insane or to make the wasting sickness come on sooner. It's possible - even likely - that the effect was temporary, since the taint was proven to be finite at SL (just as the Power itself is). How otherwise would it be magnified?
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  #74  
Old 03-18-2012, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Why wouldn't it?
Why would it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Let's have a look at Rand's POV during the cleansing.



That seems pretty specific to me. He seems very much aware of how the weave of saidar is forming. I think we can safely say that he can see the flows.
He's aware of it. However, that could be tactile awareness or a general impression as much as a sharp visual image.

I agree that the leader of a circle can probably see what he's doing, but I want to point out that I don't think it's necessarily true or proven.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
No, they're not related at all. Why build sa'angreal with buffers that prevent the taint from being magnified long before there even is a taint to magnify? Besides which, Cadsuane mentions that the effect of callandor's taint magnification is to induce wildness of the mind - not to instantly turn channellers insane or to make the wasting sickness come on sooner. It's possible - even likely - that the effect was temporary, since the taint was proven to be finite at SL (just as the Power itself is). How otherwise would it be magnified?
Of course they're related. They weren't intentional, of course. Callandor is the only sa'angreal that magnifies the taint. Rand's experience with the Choedan Kal CLEARLY shows that. He didn't experience the madness and euphoria with the CK that he did with Callandor. Everything points to the lack of the buffer both allowing the wielder of Callandor to overdraw and to it allowing the taint to be magnified. Cadsuane mentions them in the same breath.

However could that work? Based upon the similarity between drawing through an angreal and a circle, and the similar effectiveness of a buffer, I am forced to conclude that an angreal is modeled after a circle.

Because the only unbuffered angreal or sa'angreal is the only angreal or sa'angreal that magnifies the taint, I think it's quite likely that the taint is absorbed by the man drawing on Saidin, and NOT by the woman leading his circle.
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:43 PM
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Why would it?
Consistency in the magic system, consistency of methodology, of the basic rules. I understand that Rand is not seeing flows of saidin with his eyes. But nevertheless, they appear in his field of vision. He has to see them to channel them. That's the rule.

Having him not see flows of saidar while channeling them via a link would be going against the established rule. Now that I've answered your question, please answer mine.



Quote:
He's aware of it. However, that could be tactile awareness or a general impression as much as a sharp visual image.
Yes, once again, flows of the Power aren't things that you see with your eyes. It's more a case of your brain interpreting something metaphysical - the Power - as visual data. But find me one sentence in the paragraph I quoted that suggests that Rand's brain is interpreting the weave of saidar differently than it would interpret weaves of saidin.

And what do you mean by "tactile?" What, is he running his fingers along the flows? Because that's what tactile means. Which brings us back to a point from another thread that flows aren't actually there for you to touch. Everything in that paragraph suggests that the only difference between channeling saidin and channeling saidar is that with the latter, Rand must work gently and try not to force it. Other than that, the experience of channeling in a link seems identical to channeling on his own. Which means that yes, he can see the flows.
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Old 03-18-2012, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Seeker View Post
Consistency in the magic system, consistency of methodology, of the basic rules. I understand that Rand is not seeing flows of saidin with his eyes. But nevertheless, they appear in his field of vision. He has to see them to channel them. That's the rule.
In fact it is not the rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TFOH Chapter 55: The Threads Burn (p 664-665 TOR hardcover)
Rand nodded coldly. It had limits, then. There were always limits and rules, and he did not know them here. But he knew the Power, as much as Asmodean had taught him and he had taught himself, and saidin was still in him, all the sweetness of life, all the corruption of death. Rahvin had to have seen him to attack. With the Power you had to see something to affect it, or know exactly where it was in relation to you down to a hair. Perhaps it was different here, but he did not think so. He almost wished Lews Therin had not gone silent again. The man might know this place and its rules.
Now how could one channel at something that he doesn't see (while knowing exactly where it is down to the smallest detail) if he has to see what he channels?
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:29 AM
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Of course they're related. They weren't intentional, of course. Callandor is the only sa'angreal that magnifies the taint. Rand's experience with the Choedan Kal CLEARLY shows that. He didn't experience the madness and euphoria with the CK that he did with Callandor. Everything points to the lack of the buffer both allowing the wielder of Callandor to overdraw and to it allowing the taint to be magnified. Cadsuane mentions them in the same breath.

However could that work? Based upon the similarity between drawing through an angreal and a circle, and the similar effectiveness of a buffer, I am forced to conclude that an angreal is modeled after a circle.

Because the only unbuffered angreal or sa'angreal is the only angreal or sa'angreal that magnifies the taint, I think it's quite likely that the taint is absorbed by the man drawing on Saidin, and NOT by the woman leading his circle.
You keep saying that Cadsuane mentioned them in the same breath as if that proves something, yet it really doesn't. The only deep meaning inherent in Cadsuane's statement is that callandor is dangerous to use, and here are two reasons why. In fact, the language used - a full stop followed by a coordinating conjunction - suggests that they are not related. If I say I like ice cream and I like cheese in the same breath, all that means is that they're both foods I like, not that they're at all related, or even that I like them both because they're dairy products. The same thing applies here. I also disagree with your conclusion that callandor is necessarily the only sa'angreal that magnifies the taint; it's more correct to say it's the only sa'angreal Rand has used for an extended time such to experience that effect; also that callandor is incredibly powerful, and that power may amplify the magnification effect. Remember, Cadsuane had conducted a study of Callandor rather than male *angreal in general; there's no reason to assume she had any particular knowledge of male *angreal as a wider topic.

However, I do agree with your conclusions as to how *angreal work or are made. I'm not sure that necessarily flows into what you are thinking about circles, though. What we know of callandor's construction, both from the books and interviews, suggests that placing the buffer in other angreal was a deliberate act.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:51 AM
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The only sa'angreal that Rand used for a significant period of time? And strength of Callandor may magnify the taint? Didn't you read the end of Winter's Heart?

They left Far Madding at just after dawn, channeled with the Choedan Kal all day, and only finished 2 hours before dusk. Even in winter, that's something like 8 hours, minimum.

There's absolutely no evidence that any other angreal magnifies the taint. There's also no evidence that any other angreal is flawed, lacking a buffer.

The buffer is the function in a circle that protects the passive users from being burned out; in an angreal, it protects the user from overdrawing.

I agree that placing the buffer in other angreal was a deliberate act. The ones made before the taint were buffered so that the user could not overdraw. I just think that, based upon what we know of Callandor as compared to the Choedan Kal and Rand's other male angreal (and I maintain that it's true that Callandor is the only one that magnified the taint), that buffered angreal also prevent magnification of the taint.

Callandor was made unbuffered for a reason. It just so happens that this results in taint magnification. The Choedan Kal were buffered, and the taint did not magnify. The sheer immensity of the amount of Power channeled suggests to me that if Rand went loopy and started lobbing lightning at his friends and shouting, "I'M KING OF THE WORLD" after a few minutes with Callandor, that the taint drawn from the Choedan Kal, if magnified, would have driven him instantly mad. Instead, he goes the full 8+ hours of channeling with no adverse reaction, except for his pure exhaustion.
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:05 PM
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I have a few things I want to point out. The first one is how Rand works with the power while linked with Nynaeve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker
And what do you mean by "tactile?" What, is he running his fingers along the flows? Because that's what tactile means... ...Rand must work gently and try not to force it.
I see the use of the word tactile here as a way of describing the metaphysical touch that is necessary to channel the power. I mean, you have to touch the OP in some way to make it do anything.

As Nazbaque pointed out: with the Power you have to see something to affect it, or know exactly where it is in relation to you down to a hair.
You need not see what you are doing in order to do it, not even when painting.

If you don't need to see to where you are channelling but you can still affect it, why does Rand have to see the Saidar in order to notice that "the weave took on convolutions and spirals that made him think of a flower."? You can feel what a flower looks like, you don't need to know which colours it has.
(my oppinoin is that Rand does not see Saidar when channelling it)


The second thing is the buffering of *angreals.
I agree with you, Zombie, that Cadsuane says that the lack of buffer and the magnifying of the taint are two separate things.
I believe, however, that a side effect of the buffer is that the taint does not magnify.

To make it easier to understand what I am trying to say below, I'm first stating how I think channelling works.
Step 1: Prepare to open up for the power, i.e. pictuering a flowering rose bud or the flame and the void.
Step 2: Absorb the OP, i.e. let it flow into you and enjoy it's drug-like effect.
Step 3: Prepare the weaves, steer the strings of OP and keep them in store.
Step 4: Channel. Let lose those prepared weaves and "let them fall in place" (as Elayne describes it). Give the weaves power and effect.

Now on to the rest.
The place where the OP is, I picture as an ocean with a distinct, yet flexible separating wall betwixt Saidin and Saidar. The bottom of the ocean is where channellers can open a hole by pressing through their "tubes", through which the OP can flow into the channeller. The tubes are really tight in the beginning so channellers expands the their tubes to make OP flow into them, and then they adjust the wideness to allow more or less OP through. The tubes' bottoms have a static width, the limit for the amount of OP the channellers can draw at one point¤. Normally, the bottom is wider than the rest of the tube, but when channelling at their brink, channellers are pressing that opening wider. This is what hurts when trying to channel more than what they are able to.
After having flowed through the tubes, the OP resides somewhere, in some kind of container (conncected to the channellers' bodies), before being weaved and used¤¤.
The *angreal are thicker tubes that are positioned just by the bottom of the ocean. When channellers are using *angreal with buffers, they use the thicker tubes of the *angreal instead of their own. The buffer makes sure that the openings at the bottoms and the tops of the *angreal canals (not using the word tubes here) are not too wide for the channellers to make use of the power.

I think that the taint lies at the bottom of the ocean half that is Saidin, a muddy and slimy thing that comes through the tubes together with Saidin.

Here's an image showing how I picture that the extraction of tainted Saidin works while channelling alone or by using a buffered *angreal:
Gray is the bottom of the ocean, brown is taint and pink is Saidin. The taint does not hinder the presence of Saidin (there is a lot of white, empty space in "free" Saidin)

Why I included the tops of *angreal in the buffer effect and why the picture above is not for unbuffered *angreal is because I believe that the picture for unbuffered would look like this:
Without the buffer to tighten the top, the *angreal works as a funnel for the taint while you still get as much Saidin as you would when using a buffered *angreal, provided that you do not pull more OP than you are supposed to.
I made the bottoms of the tubes the same size in the two pictures to illustrate the difference in recieved taint.

An unbuffered bottom would get bigger as long as the channeller tries to make it bigger. I do not know how a buffered bottom works. It should relate to the containing capacity. However, I have no idea how the containing capacity of a lone channeller and that of a channeller boosted by *angreal relates to each other more than that a boosted channeller should have a greater capacity in order to be able to weave instead of just taking in OP and sending it on in it's raw form, sort of like Rand did in tDR
Quote:
The Dragon Reborn
Chapter 5, Nightmares walking. Rand talking to Perrin after the trolloc attack.
"Saidin filled me till I thought I'd explode like fireworks. I had to channel it somewhere, get rid of it before it burned me up..."
¤ and ¤¤
I think that the tubes of the channellers are a thing of the soul while the working of the tubes are a thing of the body. As is the containing capacity. See the following qoutes:

Quote:
ROBERT JORDAN
I don't think I have said if you are born with the spark you would have the have the spark again. I have said if you were born with the ability to channel, to learn or with the spark, you will, when your soul is born again, you will have the ability again, whether with the spark or without. And neither burning out or stilling affects that except in this lifetime, your current lifetime.
(suggesting to me that the tubes are a thing of the soul, i.e. the possibility to tap into the OP)

Quote:
ROBERT JORDAN
For Papazen, while I have spoken of souls being born with the ability to channel in response to questions, I think of it as being genetic also. In the Age of Legends, between 2 and 3% of people had some ability, following a bell curve distribution in strength. For over 3000 years, though, Aes Sedai have been removing men who actually learned to channel from the gene pool. They have been very efficient at this. As a result, the "present day" sees about 1% of the population who can learn to channel, with a much, much smaller percentage of that being born with the spark.
(suggesting to me that making use of that possibility is based on genetics)

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)
Ability to channel/souls. I think this has all been reported, but he stated definitively that the ability to channel is tied to soul. He stated definitively that the spark was not tied to the soul but could be affected by a specific body (i.e., just because you had the spark in one life, you could be reborn and just have the ability to learn.) He stated with 85% probability that strength in the Power was not tied to soul, meaning that if you were an uber channeler in one body, you could be weak in the Power in your next body.

(strongly suggesting that the static bottom of the tube is a matter of having good genes)


My third thing of interest is directed at Unreasoner
Quote:
Originally posted by Unreasoner
It's possible that Moghedien simply assumed Aran'gar was a Third-Ager, and that the first two were impossible for one. Also possible is the thought that Moghedien may have had access to the TP at this point (pre-anointing) and therefore (like Graendal) would have at least the ability to see the weaves, even if she could not channel enough of the TP to free herself.
It has been stated several times that it is not possible for anyone to see someone else using the TP. Has the rules changed or are you ignoring these statements?

Quotes regarding seeing TP:
Quote:
MONKEYMAN
Nobody who can channel saidin or saidar can sense the True Power. And, since the Forsaken don't seem to notice Moridin channeling the True Power, is it detectable at all (besides by a gholam)? That is, can someone already holding the True Power sense another using it?
ROBERT JORDAN
No. Not by any method we've seen yet.
Quote:
THOMAS HOWARD
What was the deal with that sentence concerning True Power detectability?
ROBERT JORDAN
His answer was that the True Power is only detectable by the "single person" wielding it, and it cannot be seen by others, as the One Power can.
Quote:
(bunch of questions)...QUESTION
And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?
ROBERT JORDAN
Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.
A fourth point, I almost forgot

Quote:
Originally posted by Seth Baker
They left Far Madding at just after dawn, channeled with the Choedan Kal all day, and only finished 2 hours before dusk. Even in winter, that's something like 8 hours, minimum.
I wonder how close to the equator you live. Do you even have four seasons? In the dark of winter, 2 hours before dusk is half an hour before dawn where I live. How could you have "something like 8 hours, minimum". We do know that he channelled for hours from all the other POVs in the following book. What I can't get my head around is how it can be 10+ hours of sunlight a winter day. It was just last week that we had more than 10 hours of sunlight and that's because summer is almost here.

Last edited by Oden; 03-21-2012 at 01:39 PM. Reason: I had a fourth thing to point out
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