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  #61  
Old 04-01-2012, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Enigma View Post
I don't think Tuon has ever channeled under her own steam or without the adam. If she had one would think that what ever about damane ever daring to comment on one of the High High Blood, one of the Aes Sedai with Mat would have brought it up
They were never close enough. And even if they were, its something that they'd need to know to look for or they'll miss it.
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  #62  
Old 04-01-2012, 04:26 PM
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They were never close enough.
I would say being within inches of each other inside a wagon would qualify. They would have sensed it, end of.
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  #63  
Old 04-01-2012, 06:14 PM
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As Suttree said they were in a rather small wagon together. Not to mention there were the times they tried to talk to her with a view to negotiating a peace treaty etc. Also we have seen where an Aes Sedai failed to pick up on an ability of a woman to channel when she (Egwene) was hidden behind Rand's mask of mirrors but no trained AS had ever failed to detect the ability in another woman unless it was masked.

If Tuon could channel I am sure that the Aes Sedai would have picked up on it and they would surely have tried to use that knowledge to help their 'bargening position' with her.
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  #64  
Old 04-01-2012, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by greatwolf View Post
As the damane should be able to sense that any suldam can channel? And tell who? The suldam?
The sul'dam who channel regularly through the link can be sensed, but in a different way. If Tuon had channeled actively, she could be sensed like a damane. Even Nynaeve should have been able to sense her.
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  #65  
Old 04-01-2012, 11:25 PM
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I'm confused. The fact that Teslyn, Joline and Edesina didn't detect her ability is conclusive proof she hasn't channeled yet. Continuing this discussion is pointless.
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  #66  
Old 04-01-2012, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
The sul'dam who channel regularly through the link can be sensed, but in a different way. If Tuon had channeled actively, she could be sensed like a damane. Even Nynaeve should have been able to sense her.
Either they sense them or they don't. Make up your mind. Thousands of damane over how many centuries have failed to pick up on the fact that suldam have some ability? Is that your position?

Despite Egwene's strength, three (two) strong AS failed to notice her and they were in the same room! And now you claim that you expect they should have noticed it in Tuon?

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Originally Posted by fionwe1987
I'm confused. The fact that Teslyn, Joline and Edesina didn't detect her ability is conclusive proof she hasn't channeled yet. Continuing this discussion is pointless
Sure, and since Coiren and Galina failed to pick up on Egwene, her ability must have vanished. No better still, she can't channel can she now?

ETA: are we talking of the same three sisters who failed to notice that Setalle once had the ability?
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  #67  
Old 04-02-2012, 12:50 AM
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Despite Egwene's strength, three (two) strong AS failed to notice her and they were in the same room!
Which is explained by Egwene being invisible. Nevertheless she was sensed...

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Worst of all, though, Nesune’s companions were so focused on young al’Thor that they seemed to have gone blind to all else.
"Do you have any notions," she mused aloud, "as to the sister who shared our interview?"
It might not have been a sister – three Aiel women seemed to turn up when she went into the Royal Library, and two could channel – but she wanted to see their reactions. She was not disappointed; or rather, she was. Coiren only sat up straight, but Galina stared. It was all Nesune could do not to sigh. They truly were blind. Only a few paces from a woman able to channel, and they had not sensed her because they could not see her.
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ETA: are we talking of the same three sisters who failed to notice that Setalle once had the ability?
She was burned out...there is nothing left to sense. They should have picked up on other clues but that is rather irrelevant to the discussion.
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Last edited by suttree; 04-02-2012 at 01:06 AM.
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  #68  
Old 04-02-2012, 01:54 AM
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Either they sense them or they don't. Make up your mind.
The sul'dam ability has quite a different feel from the damane ability.
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Last edited by Tamyrlin; 04-03-2012 at 07:41 PM.
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  #69  
Old 04-02-2012, 01:55 AM
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Originally Posted by EotW ch 21
Moiraine smiled, refusing to be diverted. "Unlike most women who claim to listen to the wind, you actually can, sometimes. Oh, it has nothing to do with the wind, of course. It is of Air and Water. It is not something you needed to be taught; it was born into you, just as it was born into Egwene. But you have learned to handle it, which she still has to learn. Two minutes after I came face-to-face with you, I knew. Do you remember how I suddenly asked you if you were the Wisdom? Why, do you think? There was nothing to distinguish you from any other pretty young woman getting ready for Festival. Even looking for a young Wisdom I expected someone half again your age."
Nynaeve remembered that meeting all too well; this woman, more self-possessed than anyone in the Women's Circle, in a dress more beautiful than any she had ever seen, addressing her as a child. Then Moiraine had suddenly blinked as if surprised and out of a clear sky asked ...
She licked lips gone abruptly dry. They were both looking at her, the Warder's face as unreadable as a stone, the Aes Sedai's sympathetic yet intent. Nynaeve shook her head. "No! No, it's impossible. I would know. You are just trying to trick me, and it will not work."
"Of course you do not know," Moiraine said soothingly. "Why should you even suspect? All of your life you have heard about listening to the wind. In any case, you would as soon announce to all of Emond's Field that you were a Darkfriend as admit to yourself, even in the deepest recesses of your mind, that you have anything to do with the One Power, or the dreaded Aes Sedai." Amusement flitted across Moiraine's face. "But I can tell you how it began."
Moiraine was in contact with nynaeve for a full TWO minutes, face to face before she realized. This is in the face of nynaeve's potential and the fact that she been channeling on and off for years and had even slowed.

Now how Terez expects that Tuon who has channeled less (maybe just once) would be sensed, I don't know. And Tuon obviously refuses to be associated with it. She channels using damane and enjoys it but refuses to be taught even if she could learn! That's a definite mindset there. The kind of thing that Moiraine says leads to blocks. Blocks that prevent you from further channeling.

The only other clue that Moiraine had apart from sensing nyn's ability was her youthfulness. The same youth that we see in Tuon and heavily foreshadowed by Talaan in the same book.

E: nyn and the others had 29 suldam in the palace with them for days, maybe weeks and did not notice the ability in them until it was pointed out.
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  #70  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:04 AM
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"The two women on leashes can channel," he whispered. "Can you block them?" Hurriedly he added, "Don't embrace the Source yet. They're prisoners, but they still might warn the others, and even if they don't, the women with the bracelets might be able to feel them sense you."

She looked at him oddly, but wasted no time on foolish questions such as how he knew; they would come later, he knew. "The women with the bracelets can channel also," she replied just as softly. "It feels very strange, though. Weak. As if they had never practiced it. I cannot see how that can be."
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  #71  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:07 AM
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Learn how to read. The sul'dam ability has quite a different feel from the damane ability.
Ohhh! So now its different eh? They're no longer sensing the ability to channel?

E: Avi sensed it and didn't say there was any difference. So that doesn't agree with anything you've said.
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Last edited by Terez; 04-02-2012 at 02:21 AM. Reason: trolling
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  #72  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:22 AM
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Hi Greatwolf
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Last edited by Tamyrlin; 04-05-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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  #73  
Old 04-02-2012, 02:30 AM
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Hi Terez.
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Last edited by Tamyrlin; 04-05-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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  #74  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:02 AM
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That's dealt with easily enough, when you consider that since Tuon will already have the Crystal Throne when she starts to channel, she will not be seizing it. Since Tuon is the standard by which we are judging all other free channellers, it can reasonably be assumed that other free channellers will also refrain from seizing the Crystal Throne. The difficulty will be if Tuon goes on to seize other thrones, but her behaviour thus far suggests she will not; she prefers client states.
Since the digression is about done, maybe we can address the central issue?

Tuon, the suldam and the seanchan in general have a deep rooted phobia for damane. Actually channeling whatever Tuon's status will make her damane in the eyes of the people. Egeanin has already deserted the cause because she found out its all based on a lie. And she was a tough one. Most seanchan will probably fare no better.

The only hole I see in this is that it isn't a new moral dilemma in a sense. The seanchan use suldam to channel, so they really don't despise channeling yet they do. If they didn't see channeling as evil, they would accept healing. But their reaction to be touched with the power is similar to a RLer being touched by tainted saidin.

How could Tuon rule if people despise what she is? As Empress now, Tuon cannot learn to channel unless she can make the seanchan accept it. Yes the EVA has always used damane to strengthen itself and crush enemies. How does that make them different from AS? And the imperial family kill one another to obtain the favor of their parent. That's even worse than the AS behavior that they met in seanchan.

So the moral dilemma has always been there for them. But what would make them face up to it?
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  #75  
Old 04-02-2012, 05:15 AM
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Hi Greatwolf
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Last edited by Tamyrlin; 04-05-2012 at 09:52 AM.
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  #76  
Old 04-02-2012, 10:59 AM
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Ohhh!
E: Avi sensed it and didn't say there was any difference. So that doesn't agree with anything you've said.
Seriously?

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"The women with the bracelets can channel also," she replied just as softly. "It feels very strange, though. Weak. As if they had never practiced it. I cannot see how that can be."
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  #77  
Old 04-02-2012, 03:56 PM
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Egeanin has already deserted the cause because she found out its all based on a lie. And she was a tough one. Most seanchan will probably fare no better.
Egeanin's desertion is a bit more complicated that that. She discovered that no matter what way she turned she was damned from a political point of view. Finding out about the sul'dam did help her on her way but it was not the only reason.

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How could Tuon rule if people despise what she is? As Empress now, Tuon cannot learn to channel unless she can make the seanchan accept it. Yes the EVA has always used damane to strengthen itself and crush enemies. How does that make them different from AS? And the imperial family kill one another to obtain the favor of their parent. That's even worse than the AS behavior that they met in seanchan.

So the moral dilemma has always been there for them. But what would make them face up to it?
Given the way the Seanchan are organised Tuon does not need to keep all her people on side just the nobles. The commoners might have misgivings but they will do what they are told. The nobles are a problem and Tuon is not exactly secure on her new throne. On the other hand these are desperate times. If we had been debating around say the time of TDR who would have believed that Aes Sedai and high ranking nobles would ever work along men who can channell before the taint was cleansed.

Tuon does have the end of the world going for her. In more conventional times she would probably be killed by an alliance of disgruntled nobles but faced with endless hoards of shadowspawn and the end of the world a female channeler suddenly does not seem quite as bad.
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  #78  
Old 04-03-2012, 03:30 AM
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Tuon does have the end of the world going for her. In more conventional times she would probably be killed by an alliance of disgruntled nobles but faced with endless hoards of shadowspawn and the end of the world a female channeler suddenly does not seem quite as bad.
Also applies to the damane. They've been the strength of the empire all the while but have the lowest possible place in it. I don't see how it will be easy to say "hey, we've been hypocrites all along!"
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