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  #61  
Old 03-31-2012, 07:28 PM
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This is a somewhat complex question. Personally, my understanding was the same as Gonzo's--that the bit about the Dragon being granted the Two Rivers is just a convenient legal fiction, but based on exactly what that means, it could cause some problems down the road.

If the Dragon means the Dragon--and not Rand's bloodline--there is no problem. Either Rand dies in the Last Battle or he returns alive and presumably becomes Elayne's consort. If that is the case, Perrin can run the show, as Rand is unlikey to spend much time in the Two Rivers, anyway. If he does end up moving home--which I consider unlikely--I'm sure he and Perrin would sort something out. If Rand dies, the problem is likewise non-existent, as the Dragon is unlikely to be reborn for some time.

The problem only arises if the grant to the Dragon is understood to be hereditary, and in that case it all depends on Andoran law and possibly on which of Elayne's two children is born first. We all know that the royal succession it based on female-only primogeniture, but we also know that Andoran lordships are often held by men.

If Andoran law in general stipulates absolute primogeniture (I think it's unlikely that it's male-preference primogeniture), the situation could arise where Rand's first born son inherits the Two Rivers and his daughter the throne of Andor. This would be if the male twin was born before his sister. If the sister is born first (and the rule is absolute primogeniture), the Two Rivers would devolve to the crown with Perrin's line remaining Stewards, so no real problem there, except that the tax exempt status might go up in smoke.

If Rand's son inherits the Two Rivers, there would probably not be an immediate conflict of interest, as the First Prince of the Sword is required to spend the majority of his time in the capital, but there's the potential for conflict down the road, if Rand's son founds a house of his own.

Last edited by Uno; 03-31-2012 at 07:32 PM.
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  #62  
Old 03-31-2012, 07:52 PM
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This is a somewhat complex question. Personally, my understanding was the same as Gonzo's--that the bit about the Dragon being granted the Two Rivers is just a convenient legal fiction, but based on exactly what that means, it could cause some problems down the road.

If the Dragon means the Dragon--and not Rand's bloodline--there is no problem.
Um, are you saying this despite the fact that Elayne isn't married to Rand? You see, I can accept that Andorans would have no trouble with the status of Elayne's kids since the inheritance is maternal (through her) but this agreement is about Rand. If Rand marries Min and survives TLB, then Elayne has no claims. Or at least will find it difficult even after Rand dies.

Even if Rand doesn't marry and doesn't survive, Elayne will have a hard time selling it especially if Perrin were to oppose her claim. Besides will the people accept Elayne's line and Elayne's authority? (Without Rand, Elayne's kids will be seen as just that-Elayne's kids). I don't see them leaning that way. BTW, Egwene and nynaeve are also 2R subjects...
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  #63  
Old 03-31-2012, 08:04 PM
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Um, are you saying this despite the fact that Elayne isn't married to Rand? You see, I can accept that Andorans would have no trouble with the status of Elayne's kids since the inheritance is maternal (through her) but this agreement is about Rand. If Rand marries Min and survives TLB, then Elayne has no claims. Or at least will find it difficult even after Rand dies.

Even if Rand doesn't marry and doesn't survive, Elayne will have a hard time selling it especially if Perrin were to oppose her claim. Besides will the people accept Elayne's line and Elayne's authority? (Without Rand, Elayne's kids will be seen as just that-Elayne's kids). I don't see them leaning that way. BTW, Egwene and nynaeve are also 2R subjects...
This discussion, as was pretty evident, was predicated on the assumption that Rand and Elayne stay together. As I said, if Rand wants to move back to the Two Rivers after the last battle, then that's something he and Perrin would have to sort out.

I don't know how Andoran law stands when it comes to bastardy and inheritance, but if the queen names Rand as the father, then Andorans, at least, would be very likely to go along with that. If bastardy doesn't matter, and the grant to the Dragon is understood to be hereditary, then one of Elayne's children with Rand could make a claim. Perrin or his heirs could, of course, challenge that claim--by denying the paternity, for instance--but then we have the potential for conflict.

Honestly, that's pretty obvious stuff, so it's unclear to me why you bring it up here. But thank you for informing us all that Egwene and Nynaeve were born in the Two Rivers.
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  #64  
Old 03-31-2012, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Uno View Post
This is a somewhat complex question. Personally, my understanding was the same as Gonzo's--that the bit about the Dragon being granted the Two Rivers is just a convenient legal fiction, but based on exactly what that means, it could cause some problems down the road.

If the Dragon means the Dragon--and not Rand's bloodline--there is no problem. Either Rand dies in the Last Battle or he returns alive and presumably becomes Elayne's consort. If that is the case, Perrin can run the show, as Rand is unlikey to spend much time in the Two Rivers, anyway. If he does end up moving home--which I consider unlikely--I'm sure he and Perrin would sort something out. If Rand dies, the problem is likewise non-existent, as the Dragon is unlikely to be reborn for some time.

The problem only arises if the grant to the Dragon is understood to be hereditary, and in that case it all depends on Andoran law and possibly on which of Elayne's two children is born first. We all know that the royal succession it based on female-only primogeniture, but we also know that Andoran lordships are often held by men.

If Andoran law in general stipulates absolute primogeniture (I think it's unlikely that it's male-preference or male-only primogeniture), the situation could arise where Rand's first born son inherits the Two Rivers and his daughter the throne of Andor. This would be if the male twin was born before his sister. If the sister is born first (and the rule is absolute primogeniture), the Two Rivers would devolve to the crown with Perrin's line remaining Stewards, so no real problem there, except that the tax exempt status might go up in smoke.

If Rand's son inherits the Two Rivers, there would probably not be an immediate conflict of interest, as the First Prince of the Sword is required to spend the majority of his time in the capital, but there's the potential for conflict down the road, if Rand's son founds a house of his own.
(I'm going to drastically oversimplify property law here because it's been a long time, but the general principles should still hold true.)

I disagree. The Dragon is his title: like a King. And while it's not an inheritable title, I see two main issues here.

First, is a grant to "the Dragon" a grant to the title, or a grant to the individual described by that title?

Second, is the grant here a life estate, or of an actual fee simple title? If it's the former, it expires with Rand's death.

I'll start with the second, because I think the answer there sheds light on the first. It's a fee simple grant. There's no language of limitation here. No indication of who the right of possession returns to after Rand's death. All factors indicate that it's an unlimited grant to Rand.

If it doesn't return to anyone, it must go to his heirs at law. Since common law should apply, this would mean any legal children born during his marriages.

This is where it gets a little crazy. The laws of Andor apply because the property in question is part of Andor, per the agreement between Perrin and Elayne.

Under typical Anglo-Saxon law, his first male child would inherit. However, one of the areas that we know Andor deviates from feudal England is the ability of women to hold titles; the fact that only women can be ruler strongly suggests that male primogeniture is not the norm. As such, we're going to assume that there's gender neutral primogeniture, so it'll go to whichever child is born first. (Remember, because they're inheriting through Rand and not through Elayne, it's entirely possible that if Elayne has the son before the daughter, that the son will become Lord of the Two Rivers while his sister ascends to Queen of Andor.)

Now, if he marries Elayne before she gives birth, there's a presumption that children born of their wedding are his, even if the wedding takes place a day before they're born. However, if she gives birth before they get married, they're bastards and could not inherit under common law. (We don't know anything about how Andoran law treats bastards; the fact that they're not mentioned is troublesome, but since we truly know nothing, I'm going to operate under the assumption that common law applies.) Accordingly, the question would then fall to whether Rand marries Aviendha before she gives birth. If so, his firstborn Aiel child would inherit. If not, and he has no children by Min, his wives would inherit.

You probably can't split shares in lordship, so this would be irreconcilable.
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  #65  
Old 03-31-2012, 08:17 PM
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(I'm going to drastically oversimplify property law here because it's been a long time, but the general principles should still hold true.)
Could you clarify how you disagree from my assessment of the situation, exactly? That's not clear to me. At any rate, we're not talking about transfers of property, but the transfer of a lordship, and those laws are generally different, depending on the wording of the original grant. The general rule when it comes to British peerages, for instance, is male-only primogeniture--if there is no male heir of the original title holder, the title goes extinct-- but some peerages can pass through female lines, in which case they operate under the rule of male-preference primogeniture. That depends entirely on stipulations made when the grant was first made.
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  #66  
Old 03-31-2012, 09:50 PM
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I admit I know nothing about peerage law and figured based on the way that fee tail works that it should be similar to peerage inheritability. If you actually know something about it, I'll obviously defer - but it seems like there are a lot of people whose experience with law is limited to watching reruns of Judge Judy throw their legal opinion around a lot here. LOL
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  #67  
Old 04-01-2012, 12:55 PM
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This discussion, as was pretty evident, was predicated on the assumption that Rand and Elayne stay together
Together? Its Min and Rand that have been going arm in arm so far. Elayne can claim her babies belong to Rand, but it will certainly be seen as an attempt to regain what she gave in the agreement and the entire palace knows who the father of the babies is, so do the WOs!

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But thank you for informing us all that Egwene and Nynaeve were born in the Two Rivers.
I guess I should explain that. Both are of the 2R and therefore Perrin's subjects but nyn outranks Elayne as AS while Egwene is the amyrlin seat and likely to be married to Gwayn. If both disagree with Elayne intentions concerning the 2R, and its likely they will, how will Elayne take it?

She'll go to war against the 2R? Quite unlikely. I doubt she's in any position to swindle Perrin now or after Rand's "death". And she probably doesn't have any ground to stand on legally as far as that agreement is concerned, but hey I'm no judge.
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  #68  
Old 04-01-2012, 03:01 PM
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I guess I should explain that. Both are of the 2R and therefore Perrin's subjects but nyn outranks Elayne as AS while Egwene is the amyrlin seat and likely to be married to Gwayn. If both disagree with Elayne intentions concerning the 2R, and its likely they will, how will Elayne take it?
Neither is a subject of Perrin under any circumstances. They're Aes Sedai, and therefore subject to the White Tower. You might call them subjects of Elayne or Rand. After all, Perrin is a mere steward to Elayne's chosen lord over the Two Rivers. I don't really see Egwene rushing to Perrin's defence, to tell you the truth.
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  #69  
Old 04-01-2012, 04:38 PM
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If you actually know something about it, I'll obviously defer - but it seems like there are a lot of people whose experience with law is limited to watching reruns of Judge Judy throw their legal opinion around a lot here. LOL
I'm not an expert at all, I just know enough about early modern nobility to know that these things varied a lot. It's very hard to generalize, since there was usually no systematic practice in any part of Europe. Indeed, the only generalization I would dare to make is that particularism was the common trend--a bewildering variety of rights, privileges, customs, and exemptions could be found in any given region, practices that had their origins in old charters, grants, customary laws, and so on.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:18 PM
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In our world it is possible for someone to be made a "sir" or "lady" without out the title passing down to their descendents but from what we have seen of Randland someone is either a commoner or a noble. When one is raised to the nobility the title and rank seems to pass to his/her children.

I think it was in a pov from Rodel Ituralde where he said that there had been no House Ituralde before him but "House" suggests that the title in not just limited to him for his life. Granted it might be different in Andor.
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Old 04-01-2012, 06:39 PM
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In our world it is possible for someone to be made a "sir" or "lady" without out the title passing down to their descendents but from what we have seen of Randland someone is either a commoner or a noble. When one is raised to the nobility the title and rank seems to pass to his/her children.

I think it was in a pov from Rodel Ituralde where he said that there had been no House Ituralde before him but "House" suggests that the title in not just limited to him for his life. Granted it might be different in Andor.
Yeah, nobility can be hereditary or not. I get the sense that it's always hereditary in Randland, just like it typically is on the European continent, but noble rank must be separated from political authority over a particular piece of territory granted by the monarch or other ruler. Historically, a noble may or may not hold a fief. In Rand's case, we're obviously taking about a quite extensive fiefdom, though.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:04 AM
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Neither is a subject of Perrin under any circumstances. They're Aes Sedai, and therefore subject to the White Tower. You might call them subjects of Elayne or Rand. After all, Perrin is a mere steward to Elayne's chosen lord over the Two Rivers. I don't really see Egwene rushing to Perrin's defence, to tell you the truth.

The amyrlin (Egwene) is Elayne's subject? Was that an april fool joke or something?
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:31 AM
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The amyrlin (Egwene) is Elayne's subject? Was that an april fool joke or something?
I said might, meaning, if she were subject to anyone at all, it would be Elayne. But she's subject to the White Tower, which I also said. You, on the other hand, said she was Perrin's subject, so ...
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Old 04-02-2012, 01:09 AM
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I said might, meaning, if she were subject to anyone at all, it would be Elayne. But she's subject to the White Tower, which I also said. You, on the other hand, said she was Perrin's subject, so ...
The way I understand it, is that by joining the White Tower, all Aes Sedai, Novices, and Accepted are supposed to cut loyalties with their homelands, unless they can be propped up as a ruler, which seems to be the exception (like Moiraine in New Spring (though she never gave the other Aes Sedai a chance) and Elayne in 3 seperate books).
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:23 AM
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I said might, meaning, if she were subject to anyone at all, it would be Elayne. But she's subject to the White Tower, which I also said. You, on the other hand, said she was Perrin's subject, so ...
Because they don't see themselves as andoran subjects but two rivers people. Same with Rand and Mat and with everyone else we've seen from Edmond's field. There are no bets what the outcome of a referendum would be. Elayne would lose what she never really had.

The agreement allows Elayne to save face while losing something she didn't really own and had no time for. And keep a friend (Perrin) in power. Its almost like granting autonomy to a region. But she wouldn't say that right out without looking weak to her rivals and enemies.

Of course, her bond to Rand may be making her think more like he does, but we don't have conclusive evidence that the bond does that.
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Old 04-02-2012, 12:23 PM
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Because they don't see themselves as andoran subjects but two rivers people. Same with Rand and Mat and with everyone else we've seen from Edmond's field. There are no bets what the outcome of a referendum would be. Elayne would lose what she never really had.
That's not what being a subject means. Subjecthood is a political relationship--you owe allegiance (at least in theory) to a person or a state--it's not the same as personal or ethnic identity.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:10 PM
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Being subject normally means what the guy with the bigger army says it means. What Elayne has to factor in is that she no longer has the bigger army, or at least its not so much bigger that the other army and its allies to make the matter certain.

Legality is all well and good but if you lack the force to back up that law it just becomes words. Put it another way once upon a time there were 13 colonies that owed allegience to a certain King George and legally the people in those colonies were his subjects. Then those people managed to evict the king's men and suddenly they were not his subjects any more.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:18 PM
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Being subject normally means what the guy with the bigger army says it means. What Elayne has to factor in is that she no longer has the bigger army, or at least its not so much bigger that the other army and its allies to make the matter certain.
I don't think Andor's weakness in the Two Rivers is really in dispute, but I don't think Elayne has any intention of reducing the area to firm obedience, anyway. Frankly, the anti-Elayne paranoia some of you seem to harbour puzzles me. Of course, the fact that power relations might to some extent inform subject-ruler relations is something none of us would have thought of on our own, I'm sure, so thanks for providing us with that information.
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:11 PM
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I don't think Andor's weakness in the Two Rivers is really in dispute, but I don't think Elayne has any intention of reducing the area to firm obedience, anyway. Frankly, the anti-Elayne paranoia some of you seem to harbour puzzles me.
Actually I think Elayne handled the situation very well. She is not the sort to just want to slaughter people to either make a point or bring them to heel. Secondly she took what from her was a bad military and political situation and got quite a good deal from it. Going back to my earlier examply imagine the world today if those 13 colonies had been persuanded to stay part of King George's realm.

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Of course, the fact that power relations might to some extent inform subject-ruler relations is something none of us would have thought of on our own, I'm sure, so thanks for providing us with that information.
Your welcome, always happy to help
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Old 04-03-2012, 04:01 AM
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I don't think Andor's weakness in the Two Rivers is really in dispute, but I don't think Elayne has any intention of reducing the area to firm obedience, anyway. Frankly, the anti-Elayne paranoia some of you seem to harbour puzzles me. Of course, the fact that power relations might to some extent inform subject-ruler relations is something none of us would have thought of on our own, I'm sure, so thanks for providing us with that information.
Anti-Elayne? Why would anyone be against a beautiful redhead? Sure you're not mistaken?
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