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  #61  
Old 04-25-2012, 06:51 PM
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Or they're supposed to let the Lord of Chaos rule, according to the prophecy.
It's not a prophecy, it's a song from a children's game. While there may be elements of truth (such as the one in snakes and foxes), it's not supposed to be a prophecy. It's just poetic rhyming about the turning over of the normal order during the Feast of Fools. "Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool" could just be categories of people that might be voted the Lord of Chaos for the feast.

It's still thematically important for the book, as the references through the book with a similar root to the song hint that the Shadow was under orders to leave Rand alone since he was being a dumbass and screwing everything up for himself, anyway (until there was indication that he was planning on Cleansing the Taint).
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  #62  
Old 04-25-2012, 07:13 PM
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Could the blind woman and deaf man be linked to Taim?

The blind woman could be Elaida, who can't see what's in front of her.

Deaf man could be Rand who don't listen to all the warnings (internal and external) concerning Taim.

I don't know about the jackdaw fool.

Taim is then the lord of chaos.

Just idle thought.
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  #63  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
It's not a prophecy, it's a song from a children's game. While there may be elements of truth (such as the one in snakes and foxes), it's not supposed to be a prophecy. It's just poetic rhyming about the turning over of the normal order during the Feast of Fools. "Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool" could just be categories of people that might be voted the Lord of Chaos for the feast.

It's still thematically important for the book, as the references through the book with a similar root to the song hint that the Shadow was under orders to leave Rand alone since he was being a dumbass and screwing everything up for himself, anyway (until there was indication that he was planning on Cleansing the Taint).
I prefer to assume that everything is there for a reason, especially something as specific as this. As you say, it's not a prophecy, but every one of these end notes was included for a reason. In this particular case I'm interested in it because there's quite an interesting contrast between a "blind woman" and prophecies of Rand's blinding. We already know that eyes and sight have apparently quite heavy significance as symbols of light, so what does a blind woman signify here? Rand isn't a woman, but in a number of ways he does transcend gender boundaries; could it be an oblique reference to him? Or is it a reference to the White Tower or some other female-dominated group, or to a specific character? Just because it's from a children's game doesn't mean these things aren't important. It was included for a reason, and RJ chose to refer to a blind woman - when he could have referred to a blind man and made us all sigh "Rand" again - for a reason. I'm interested in what that reason might be.
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  #64  
Old 04-26-2012, 06:58 AM
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Of course, the blind woman could be Elaida. Or Sevanna. Maybe even Else, though that seems a bit of a stretch.
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  #65  
Old 04-26-2012, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
It's still thematically important for the book, as the references through the book with a similar root to the song hint that the Shadow was under orders to leave Rand alone since he was being a dumbass and screwing everything up for himself, anyway (until there was indication that he was planning on Cleansing the Taint).
Blind lady - WT (Elaida and friends not believing in the BA and underestimating BT)
Deaf man - Perrin (won't listen to Hopper and "embrace" the Wolf)
Jackdaw fool - Mat (denying his war skillz, trying to avoid trouble.)

Lord of Chaos - Mr. al'Thor

This is purely guesswork that feels OK as I was inspired by Grig. Any thoughts?
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  #66  
Old 04-26-2012, 12:28 PM
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As you say, it's not a prophecy, but every one of these end notes was included for a reason.
Yes, and I pointed out the thematic reason for including it. Much the same as the end note for Path of Daggers, or hell, even the most recent Loial information in ToM. It's not prophecy, it's worldbuilding. There might be issues of thematic interest, and it's interesting to speculate there...I promise I won't complain if we just stop calling it a prophecy, since there's no solid ground to assume such.

I do find Maesterbaevern's addition interesting, although I believe at this point there was actually a kill order in place for Perrin and Mat. At least judging by Semi's reaction to Moridin, saying (to the reader, at least) that Mat would have been dead if she had known what he looked like. They were most definitely happy to let Elaida "rule" in the White Tower, with certain guidance of course. And even then, they didn't do anything when a non-Black was put in place as Keeper, figuring Elaida served their purpose well enough.
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  #67  
Old 04-26-2012, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Yes, and I pointed out the thematic reason for including it. Much the same as the end note for Path of Daggers, or hell, even the most recent Loial information in ToM. It's not prophecy, it's worldbuilding. There might be issues of thematic interest, and it's interesting to speculate there...I promise I won't complain if we just stop calling it a prophecy, since there's no solid ground to assume such.

I do find Maesterbaevern's addition interesting, although I believe at this point there was actually a kill order in place for Perrin and Mat. At least judging by Semi's reaction to Moridin, saying (to the reader, at least) that Mat would have been dead if she had known what he looked like. They were most definitely happy to let Elaida "rule" in the White Tower, with certain guidance of course. And even then, they didn't do anything when a non-Black was put in place as Keeper, figuring Elaida served their purpose well enough.
Sure, and I understand the thematic reasoning as well. But it's my thinking that given the symbolism associated with eyes, light, sight, and blindness, that RJ is giving us some clue by using a "blind woman" i.e. not Rand. I think I actually suggested something similar to Maesterbeavern's idea earlier on in the thread. But as you rightly suggest, "blind woman" needn't refer to any specific individual any more than any other part of the rhyme must. I am inclined to think it is more than just general though; it would be unlike RJ to let something like that slip, as it were. I am very much enamoured of the idea that it refers to the main characters: Egwene the blind woman, Perrin the deaf man, Mat the jackdaw fool, and Rand the Lord of Chaos. There's no particular concern regarding the kill order, as the structure of the rhyme suggests either that they are letting the Lord of Chaos rule or that they ought to do so, not that they also ought to be protected.
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  #68  
Old 04-26-2012, 01:36 PM
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  #69  
Old 04-26-2012, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
Sure, and I understand the thematic reasoning as well. But it's my thinking that given the symbolism associated with eyes, light, sight, and blindness, that RJ is giving us some clue by using a "blind woman" i.e. not Rand. I think I actually suggested something similar to Maesterbeavern's idea earlier on in the thread. But as you rightly suggest, "blind woman" needn't refer to any specific individual any more than any other part of the rhyme must.
Scanned back and found your first input, did not mean to highjack it!
I do find Egwene plausible in the role as the blind woman as well as Elaida.
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  #70  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:56 AM
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Came across this last night during my reread:

Quote:
TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 35 - A Halo of Blackness

The Last Battle would be between the Empire and the forces of the Dark One. Everybody knew that. The prophecies clearly showed that the Empress would defeat those who served the Shadow, and then she would send the Dragon Reborn in to duel with Lighteater. How much had he fulfilled? He didn't seem blinded yet, so that had yet to happen. The Essanik Cycle said that he would stand on his own grave and weep. Or did that prophecy refer to the dead walking, as they did already? Certainly, some of those spirits had walked across their own graves. The writings were unclear, sometimes. This people seemed to have forgotten many of the prophecies, just as they forgot their oaths to watch for the Return. But she did not say this. Watch your words carefully...
Of course, the Seanchan version of the Prophesies are corrupted by Ishmael but there's no knowing which part is the corruption and which is real.
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  #71  
Old 05-04-2012, 12:21 PM
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yks, as I recall that prophecy appears in full at the end of TGS. In case you wanted to see the actual wording. It's something to the effect of the blind man stands on his own grave and weeps, and was fulfilled during Veins of Gold.
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  #72  
Old 05-04-2012, 12:47 PM
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yks, as I recall that prophecy appears in full at the end of TGS. In case you wanted to see the actual wording. It's something to the effect of the blind man stands on his own grave and weeps, and was fulfilled during Veins of Gold.
lol, thanks! I hadn't gotten to that part in the re-read yet
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  #73  
Old 05-04-2012, 12:49 PM
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It's also Essanik, which Brandon has hinted is uncorrupted.
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  #74  
Old 05-04-2012, 12:56 PM
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Double-checked the full citation. The one at the end of TGS isn't necessarily the on Tuon was referring to, but both would be from Essanik. I don't have time to write up the full quote right now, but it is the endnote to TGS.
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  #75  
Old 05-04-2012, 01:22 PM
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The one at the end of TGS isn't necessarily the on Tuon was referring to, but both would be from Essanik.
Not sure if serious? What reason do we have to postulate that it's not? She explicitly links the "not blinded yet" and "walking on his own grave".

Besides, on a meta level this fits the Pattern Sanderson also used in ToM, having a plot-relevant prophecy referenced in passing the book as part of the ongoing plot and then providing the full explicit prophecy as the endnote. I'm curious what portion of the Prophecies will get this treatment in AMoL.
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
TITLE: The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: Epilogue - Bathed in Light
At the end of time, when the many become one, the last storm shall gather its angry winds to destroy a land already dying. And at its center, the blind man shall stand upon his own grave. There he shall see again, and weep for what has been wrought.
—from The Prophecies of the Dragon, Essanik Cycle. Malhavish's Official Translation, Imperial Record House of Seandar, Fourth Circle of Elevation.
Hopefully this saves you some time Zombie.
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Old 05-04-2012, 02:39 PM
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2009 TGS signing:

Quote:
Brandon Sanderson
Brandon confirmed that the Wolf Dream/foretelling of Rand as a beggar and the one with bandages over his eyes is fulfilled with his visit to Ebou Dar.
Footnote
Perrin's Wolf Dream with Rand wearing rags and a rough cloak with a bandage over his eyes is from The Shadow Rising 53. The other occurrence is not a Foretelling but rather was one of Min's viewings from The Eye of the World 15, where she saw a beggar's staff.
Not sure how it ties into your ideas, but thought I would share. Argue away
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Old 05-04-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grig View Post
Not sure if serious? What reason do we have to postulate that it's not? She explicitly links the "not blinded yet" and "walking on his own grave".

Besides, on a meta level this fits the Pattern Sanderson also used in ToM, having a plot-relevant prophecy referenced in passing the book as part of the ongoing plot and then providing the full explicit prophecy as the endnote. I'm curious what portion of the Prophecies will get this treatment in AMoL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Hopefully this saves you some time Zombie.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SauceyBlueConfetti View Post
2009 TGS signing:



Not sure how it ties into your ideas, but thought I would share. Argue away
Thanks for that Ishara.

I hadn't realised Brandon had confirmed that the blind/beggar prophecy had been fulfilled, hence my comments about the Essanik one. It seemed to me that there was a difference between a prophecy that said the DR would be blinded and one which said a blind man would do something. That might be overly literal; after all, if you knew the identity of the blind man was the DR it'd be reasonable enough to assume (as everyone did) that at some point he'd have to be blinded, but evidently even that is an overly literal interpretation of the prophecy! I figured there could be a second prophecy which said explicitly that the DR would be blinded prior to him standing on his own grave and weeping. But since that prophecy has been fulfilled, further speculation actually seems pointless, somewhat disappointingly given our earlier speculations.
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Old 05-08-2012, 02:41 PM
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I was just talking to a coworker about dogs and how they see in a different light spectrum. It got me thinking about Perrin and the Wolfbrothers, as well as Hopper, etc. Perrin is able to see things well in advance of others, his sight is commented on repeatedly in the books especially after his eyes turn Golden. This is again, an Eye storyline, the idea he can see things so clearly that others cannot. Of course he is also dense so he cannot see the true motives of Berelain, or even his sneaky sneaky wife. But that may just be a man thing.
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Old 05-10-2012, 06:38 AM
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In the interview Q/A on the Whelan cover. http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=766
There is a point at no 4 (7 MAY 2012) with some eye interest.


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Compositionally, the line of the sword is another element that draws you into the intensity of Rand's stare. Further, the opening of the cave is the shape of an eye; the eclipse suggests an iris. It's as if the gaze of the Dark One is falling on Rand. We see his strength and determination in response. How many illustrators can convey that kind of depth in a scene?
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