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  #1  
Old 05-24-2012, 11:34 PM
Tamyrlin Tamyrlin is offline
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Default TGH: Ch. 33 - Mat's Betrayal not on Purpose

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 33 - A Message From the Dark
"I know," Rand said. But how long before he tells somebody what I am, not even meaning to? He could not believe Mat would betray him on purpose; there was that much of their friendship left, at least. "Loial, boost me up where I can see over the wall."
I know we've discussed Mat and betrayal because of his reaction after coming out of the Portal Stone, but I thought Rand's phrasing here was good: not on purpose.

Which made me think of a quote later on:

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 34 - The Wheel Weaves
"Do not ruin what convincing you have managed to do. I shall not sound the Horn of Valere. When I return to Seanchan, I shall present it to the Empress as the chiefest of my trophies. Perhaps the Empress will sound it herself."
Mat, horn, Tuon, Heroes of the Horn fight on the behalf of the Seanchan? Ok, loony, but a fun mix of betrayal, yet not being something purposeful.
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:59 AM
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Yeah, if for no other reason than that it wouldn't work for Tuon. At least, not as long as Mat is alive.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:11 AM
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Unless, of course, the link was broken when he died.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:25 AM
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I think we will have to wait and see about Mat's death breaking the link. Technically he died twice. The first was in the waste and was brought back by Rand using CPR. Rahvin's death by balefire probably reestablished the link but who knows.

Is the Horn still in Tar Valon? If so does Mat know where to get it and I can't see Mat just walking down the corridors to the storerooms without anyone stopping him and if he told them he wanted the Horn would Egwene give it to him?

It would be cool if he blew the Horn brought back Hawkwing to the Seanchan court and got the old king to say what he thought of damane and slavery.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:33 AM
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Except no one really knows (except him and Rand) that he died in Caemlyn, and everyone is still behaving and betting on the fact this his link to the Horn is still intact - including him.

Meaning, it's not altogether too likely that there will be an opportunity for anyone to test that theory out in a practical way.

Plus, we have to remember that Hawkwing sort of hated the Aes Sedai - I'm not convinced he'd have a huge problem with the damane... Channelers were his one (cultivated) blind spot for a man consumed with the idea of justice for all.
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Old 05-25-2012, 08:45 AM
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On the other hand, his hatred for AS was at least in part based on Ishamael's manipulations, which will have faded away now that he's dead. Of course, another part was based on knowing AS, but there he's no different than Mat, I think.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Except no one really knows (except him and Rand) that he died in Caemlyn, and everyone is still behaving and betting on the fact this his link to the Horn is still intact - including him.

Meaning, it's not altogether too likely that there will be an opportunity for anyone to test that theory out in a practical way.
We're talking about Tuon, who believes she has a divine right to blow it, and is supposedly attacking the Tower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Plus, we have to remember that Hawkwing sort of hated the Aes Sedai - I'm not convinced he'd have a huge problem with the damane... Channelers were his one (cultivated) blind spot for a man consumed with the idea of justice for all.
In the afterlife he will know that he had been manipulated into hating Aes Sedai, and he'll probably recognize exactly who it was who was manipulating him. It will definitely be interesting to see what he has to say about it. Assuming he's there. He might have been spun out, in which case the Seanchan will implode because Tuon isn't pregnant yet.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:05 AM
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She might be pregnant by the time she blows that horn.
Though probably not far enough along, I grant.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:06 AM
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Yeah, I considered that. The two must be as one, though. It is known.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:21 AM
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Default I was thinking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Unless, of course, the link was broken when he died.
That.

Or, as Tuon's property, he is forced to blow the Horn on her behalf. Then, Hawkwing comes back and fights on behalf of his descendants/people.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
I was thinking...That.
Somehow, I think Gonzo was too. He gets bored, you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
Or, as Tuon's property, he is forced to blow the Horn on her behalf.
Or maybe, as Tuon's "property", he does it because he bloody well wants to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
Then, Hawkwing comes back and fights on behalf of his descendants/people.
This, I like. And it's part of why I like the idea of the truce happening after Rand dies, aside from the fact that Nicola's Foretelling strongly implies it.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:48 AM
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I have no doubt that Mat would love Tuon to blow his horn and would not see it as a betrayal of Rand.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:37 PM
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But would Rand see it as a betrayal? That is the question.
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:49 PM
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I have no doubt that Mat would love Tuon to blow his horn and would not see it as a betrayal of Rand.
Was that an intended double meaning?

BTW
How will the Seanchan react to Hawkwing?
Will he lead them into battle?
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Old 05-25-2012, 01:56 PM
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If I can make a double entendre, I will 99.9% of the time do so.

I think the Seanchan will prostrate themselves if Hawkwing appears on the field.

Awkward moment: Does Hawkwing ask Rand for his sword back?
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:06 PM
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Why would he? He has one too. I want Logain to ask for his sword back.
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:25 PM
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Why would he? He has one too. I want Logain to ask for his sword back.
I was wondering about this the other day. Where do the Heroes get their legendary weapons? Are they only Tel'aran'rhiod versions? What happens when the Dream version meets the real version?
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Old 05-25-2012, 02:39 PM
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It's Tel'aran'rhiod. They can do stuff with their brains.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:41 PM
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Plus, we have to remember that Hawkwing sort of hated the Aes Sedai - I'm not convinced he'd have a huge problem with the damane... Channelers were his one (cultivated) blind spot for a man consumed with the idea of justice for all.
That is only partially true. At the begining Hawkwing seemed to have frosty relations with the Aes Sedai. From what I remember of the guide the False Dragon around that time had taken over half the continent and Hawkwing was the only one able to match his leadership abilities. He led one last battle against the False Dragon whose name I can't remember and there the AS captured him.

Now presumably Hawkwing had at least a working relationship with the AS at that stage as he needed them to shield the False Dragon and they needed Hawkwings' soldiers and general abilities to defeat the False Dragon's army.

They escorted the False Dragon to Tar Valon were he was gentled but the Amrylin was pissed at Hawkwing and the AS who captured the False Dragon. I gather she was pissed because any ruler was only suppost to bring a small force to Tar Valon but for security Hawkwing brought his full army. The White Tower didn't like having its need for Hawkwing's help rubbed in its face.

The WT plotted against Hawkwing inderectly getting other nations to attack and that in turn lead to Hawkwing's rise to empire. Now I think the guide said that in the pease after Hawkwing took over the continent a lot of Aes Sedai acted as Governors for Hawkwing.

It was only when Ishamael showed up and started to poison Hawkwing's mind that the AS might have killed his wife and were up to no good that he declared war on Tar Valon.

That to me says that Hawkwing had mixed views on female channelers. Not to mention that if brought back by the Horn Hawkwing would have access to all his past lives memories.

He may harbour a certain coolness to the Aes Sedai but everyone said Hawkwing was hard but just so I suspect he would be horrifed by the idea of damane.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:42 PM
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It's Tel'aran'rhiod. They can do stuff with their brains.
Somewhat relevant:


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