art by =saintchase

Theoryland Resources

WoT Interview Search

Search the most comprehensive database of interviews and book signings from Robert Jordan, Brandon Sanderson and the rest of Team Jordan.

Wheel of Time News

An Hour With Harriet

2012-04-30: I had the great pleasure of speaking with Harriet McDougal Rigney about her life. She's an amazing talent and person and it will take you less than an hour to agree.

The Bell Tolls

2012-04-24: Some thoughts I had during JordanCon4 and the upcoming conclusion of "The Wheel of Time."

Theoryland Community

Members: 7653

Logged In (0):

Newest Members:johnroserking, petermorris, johnadanbvv, AndrewHB, jofwu, Salemcat1, Dhakatimesnews, amazingz, Sasooner, Hasib123,

Theoryland Tweets

Forums

Home | Chat | Old Forums(Yuku)


Go Back   Theoryland of the Wheel of Time Forums > WHEEL OF TIME FORUMS > General Wheel of Time Discussion
User Name
Password

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-01-2012, 06:11 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default The Black Ajah Oaths

We know that the Black Ajah swear oaths to the Great Lord upon joining, both from Verin's confession in TGS, and from the fact that Black Ajah members would stick out like a sore thumb without the ageless face if they didn't. We also, thanks to Verin, know what one of those oaths is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TGS, 39, A Visit From Verin Sedai
"I swear not to betray the Great Lord, to keep my secrets until the hour of my death."
We know that there are three, from ACOS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACOS, 40, Spears
[Galina] had broken free of the Three Oaths on joining the Black Ajah, replacing them with a new trinity
Although I'm not sure where I've come across it in the past, I have to bring up the suggestion that these Black Ajah Oaths - the Dark Oaths, as I've been referring to them - in many ways reflect the Three Oaths. With that in mind, I'd suggest that this First Dark Oath reflects the First Oath of the normal AS; "to speak no word that is not true", since both are oaths to remain "true" in one way or another, and both contain get-outs in similar ways; the First Oath allows an AS to mislead if not lie, and the First Dark Oath allows someone like Verin to betray the Great Lord and all her secrets as she dies.

That leaves us with two oaths unknown, but if I am correct and they reflect the existing oaths in some way, that might allow us to make some suggestions of what the others are.

The Second Oath is to make no weapon with which one man may kill another. Because of this oath, the ability to make Power-wrought weaponry has been lost until recently, and it might also play some part in the fact that the ability to make ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal has been lost until recently; in both cases, the re-discoveries were made by channellers who were not bound by the oaths; the Asha'man Fager Neald and Perrin Aybara on the one hand, and Elayne Trakand on the other. Since the Black Ajah are not running about creating power-wrought weaponry to give to Trollocs or their warders, or defending themselves with sa'angreal. My speculation for this one might be "to make no weapon to fight against the Shadow".

The final oath is never to use the power as a weapon, except against shadowspawn, or in the last most extreme defence of the sister's life, or that of another sister or warder. This is the longest oath, so if the Dark Oaths reflect it properly, it might also be the longest Dark Oath. Over in the Sorilea thread, I've speculated that it might involve not killing other darkfriends, apart from in certain specified contexts. On the other hand, I have also considered that, since it is conditional, this Oath might actually be reflected by the Dark Oath we already know, which is also conditional; I prefer the idea of an oath of honesty and an oath of loyalty reflecting each other, but it is still possible. It's notable that whilst Verin has considered murder as an option, she has preferred to name those who she knows to be Black Ajah and possibly other Darkfriends such as Weiramon, rather than removing them completely. Since the First Dark Oath speaks of both betrayal and secrets, it might just be possible for a BA to weasel out of it by deciding it refers only to secrets rather than to attacking other Darkfriends; also bear in mind that the Dark One actually wants Darkfriends to compete with one another, so the Known Oath is obviously intended to allow that; I'd suggest that, if the Third Dark Oath is unknown and reflects the Third Oath, it would also allow such a get-out clause.

Finally, there's this, from Brandon:

Quote:
Originally Posted by INTERVIEW: Apr 17th, 2011
Driving Mr. Sanderson - Terez (Verbatim)
TEREZ
Will we learn anything else about the Black Ajah oaths?

BRANDON SANDERSON
Um...

TEREZ
I mean, you can tell us now.

BRANDON SANDERSON
Well, you’re phrasing these questions in such a way that...

TEREZ
I know, I know. I was trying to be...

BRANDON SANDERSON
You’re being nice. No, I appreciate that. I’m not complaining that you’re phrasing these in a way...um, I think that there is a decent chance that those could go in the encyclopedia.
Depending on how weaselly Brandon is being, that doesn't necessarily mean they won't come up in AMOL, but it does seem unlikely that they will. However, it is certain that both Darkfriends in general and what remains of the Black Ajah still have a role to play. Working out the Black Ajah Oaths could well give us some interesting insight into the nature of that role.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-02-2012, 04:52 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 15,859
GonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond reputeGonzoTheGreat has a reputation beyond repute
Default

From another thread (where you came up with the idea of starting this thread):
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael
Regarding Verin and leaving people alive, it may well be that the Dark Oaths in some way prohibit her from assassinating fellow Darkfriends outside of certain circumstances; compare "except in the last most extreme defence of my life, or that of a warder or another sister" with "except where it serves my own advancement in the Shadow, or the plans of the Great Lord of the Dark or one of the Forsaken", for example. That would still allow the BA to behave in the selfish way the Dark One requires, but both prevent betrayal and ensure they serve his ends.
It seems to me that this would place an unfair and unjust burden on high ranking Darkfriends. I'm sure the DO wouldn't do that.

Consider the case of an AS who discovers the identity of the head of the BA. She could now kill that woman, as it would help her own chances of getting that post and thus advancing in the Shadow. But the BA head couldn't kill her challenger, as doing so would not help her advance one bit further.

Now, there's also the "defense of my life" clause, but I'm sure that with a few decades of study, quite a lot of AS would manage to work out how to neutralise that one.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-02-2012, 06:27 AM
Cortar Cortar is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 488
Cortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of lightCortar is a glorious beacon of light
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
From another thread (where you came up with the idea of starting this thread):

It seems to me that this would place an unfair and unjust burden on high ranking Darkfriends. I'm sure the DO wouldn't do that.

Consider the case of an AS who discovers the identity of the head of the BA. She could now kill that woman, as it would help her own chances of getting that post and thus advancing in the Shadow. But the BA head couldn't kill her challenger, as doing so would not help her advance one bit further.

Now, there's also the "defense of my life" clause, but I'm sure that with a few decades of study, quite a lot of AS would manage to work out how to neutralise that one.
All DFs are extremely arrogant and self-centered so I would imagine its not much a stretch to say that they probably rationalize killing this challenger by the logic that he could do a better job of the challenger, so by killing the challenger, it ensures the Shadow continues to strengthen and if he didn't kill this challenger, it would be weakened.

I know thats kinda long and rambling, but it was much shorter in my head.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-02-2012, 12:42 PM
Kimon's Avatar
Kimon Kimon is offline
Ancient
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 3,401
Kimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond reputeKimon has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post

The Second Oath is to make no weapon with which one man may kill another. Because of this oath, the ability to make Power-wrought weaponry has been lost until recently, and it might also play some part in the fact that the ability to make ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal has been lost until recently; in both cases, the re-discoveries were made by channellers who were not bound by the oaths; the Asha'man Fager Neald and Perrin Aybara on the one hand, and Elayne Trakand on the other. Since the Black Ajah are not running about creating power-wrought weaponry to give to Trollocs or their warders, or defending themselves with sa'angreal. My speculation for this one might be "to make no weapon to fight against the Shadow".
Verin and Alanna made exploding catapult stones for the defense of Emond's Field. It's not completely clear whether these weapons were mere scientific knowledge, like the re-purposed fireworks that Mat has been using, or if they were weave reinforced weapons, but the latter would seem to be more likely as the former would almost certainly have been a direct violation of the 2nd Oath. After all, if it was a woven weapon, it could be argued off as a one-time use weapon, for specific use against Shadowspawn, whereas if the latter, they were potentially teaching men to make a weapon that could be re-purposed later for use against men. Regardless, clearly it didn't bother Verin to make weapons for use against Shadowspawn.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-02-2012, 01:01 PM
Tomp's Avatar
Tomp Tomp is offline
Youngling
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,229
Tomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant futureTomp has a brilliant future
Default

One of the oaths is probably something about never revealing other AS in their hearts (or other BA AS at all).
Unless it's covered by the first oath.

There is not an oath about always following the forsaken. Liandrin tried to best Moghegdien a couple of times.
And payed the price for it.
__________________
A good novel tells us the truth about its hero; but a bad novel tells us the truth about its author. (Chesterton)
What is worse? To be asked to die for your country; or be asked to kill for your country? (Bergström)
Never judge a book by its movie. (Eagan)
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. (Marx)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-02-2012, 01:11 PM
Zombie Sammael's Avatar
Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Too close to New South Wales
Posts: 3,225
Zombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond reputeZombie Sammael has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via Skype™ to Zombie Sammael
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomp View Post
One of the oaths is probably something about never revealing other AS in their hearts (or other BA AS at all).
Unless it's covered by the first oath.

There is not an oath about always following the forsaken. Liandrin tried to best Moghegdien a couple of times.
And payed the price for it.
I would have thought that on either interpretation, revealing the members of your Heart would be covered by the Known Oath. It could, after all, be considered one of the BA's secrets that she must keep until the hour of her death.
__________________
Sa souvraya niende misain ye

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized.

The one who Death has known
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-02-2012, 01:57 PM
Terez's Avatar
Terez Terez is offline
Hero of the Horn
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Corn
Posts: 21,128
Terez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond reputeTerez has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Terez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimon View Post
Verin and Alanna made exploding catapult stones for the defense of Emond's Field. It's not completely clear whether these weapons were mere scientific knowledge, like the re-purposed fireworks that Mat has been using, or if they were weave reinforced weapons, but the latter would seem to be more likely as the former would almost certainly have been a direct violation of the 2nd Oath. After all, if it was a woven weapon, it could be argued off as a one-time use weapon, for specific use against Shadowspawn, whereas if the latter, they were potentially teaching men to make a weapon that could be re-purposed later for use against men. Regardless, clearly it didn't bother Verin to make weapons for use against Shadowspawn.
It doesn't say they're not allowed to teach men how to make weapons to kill another man, and besides which, they'd need someone to rig the stones, so I don't think this even comes close to violating the Oath.
__________________
Qui nos rodunt confundantur, et cum iustis non scribantur.
@Terez27
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-02-2012, 04:12 PM
The Unreasoner's Avatar
The Unreasoner The Unreasoner is offline
Elder
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 3,382
The Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond reputeThe Unreasoner has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Why assume they are reflections of the true Oaths? I think they may all serve some sort of purpose, but I think the real important thing is that there are three of them, to preclude noticeable physical differences.
__________________
Exfeuck? Not quite...
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.