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  #41  
Old 05-28-2012, 05:46 PM
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Zombie Sammael Zombie Sammael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
They don't! 'Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.' They're honour bound to follow him whether they want to or not.

As for Lan's idiocy, obviously leading thousands against the Blight always works. It's not like Lord Luc or that Malkieri friend of the king ever led an army to a futile death in the blight that achieved absolutely nothing and in fact had long term negative consequences, right?
Choosing to behave in a way you define as honourable is not the same as having no choice at all. Just ask Tyrion Lannister.
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  #42  
Old 05-28-2012, 06:13 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
They don't! 'Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.' They're honour bound to follow him whether they want to or not.
That's... absurd. If Nynaeve "forced" them by calling to their honor, she did nothing wrong. As wife of the King of Malkier, that is exactly her duty, anyway.

Accusing her of being wrong here is like blaming Aemon for the death of his army because he marched them to Manetheren's defense to "save his wife"!
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  #43  
Old 05-28-2012, 06:16 PM
sleepinghour sleepinghour is offline
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Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
'Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.' They're honour bound to follow him whether they want to or not.
I don't think it's really about Lan here. Much like ji'e'toh is at the heart of what it means to be Aiel, the Malkieri are defined by their pledge to fight the Shadow.

It doesn't matter if they never wore the hadori; as long as their mothers wore the ki'sain (a pledge that her sons would fight the Shadow "every day in every way that they could"), they are honor bound to do so. So far, they haven't really done much to honor that oath—Weilin Aldragoran from KoD was a merchant who only used his hadori to intimidate his customers.

If the Last Battle had gone by without the Malkieri at the front line, the Malkieri as a people would never have recovered from that shame. It's been repeatedly said that a Borderlander would rather die than to break an oath. So to break the most important oath of all would truly and finally have destroyed them as a people. The Malkieri's last stand at Tarwin's Gap is their way of finally honoring that oath, of saying, "Before Shienar falls to the Shadow, they're going to have to go through us first. Every last one of us."

After the Last Battle, they'll probably get their country back from the Blight (it's been foreshadowed since TEotW), and this way they can feel like they earned it.
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  #44  
Old 05-28-2012, 11:01 PM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
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Default Borderlander honour

If the men and women who follow Lan are manipulated, it is their own fault. In New Spring, Lan shows exactly what Malkieri honour code dictates. He would take any pain, even death, to avoid the appearance that a woman has lied. Nynaeve's approach may have awakened dormant Malkieri honour, but it's their crazy belief system, and one they had set aside for practical reasons for the last 40 years. The fact that they want to follow it again is their choice, but Malkieri honour dictates that it is no choice at all. Mothers wear the ki'sain to pledge their children against the shadow at birth. Like the Aiel, they are bound by a promise that has been held to for centuries. I see why you are saying Nynaeve used their code against them, since it so rigid. But it doesn't change the joy they feel when they can finally submit to it and fulfil the promise.
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  #45  
Old 05-29-2012, 10:47 AM
codetoast codetoast is offline
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Kimon,
From what I know of sphacteria, correct me if im wrong. But I believe the athenians won by skirmishing and feining retreat back to the sea. Once the spartans got tired and started heading back to their fort, the athenians came around and sieged their fort. I see your point that it was very different, but im looking for more of a battle where the tactics of skirmishing, moving in secret and dividing an army is used.

I can say the same about your hannibal example. His ambush involved luring the romans into a trap. His army was not divided but was on one side while the lake was on the other side of the roman column.

Check out the British strategy in the battle of long island in the american revolutionary war. This was a loss for them, but kind of fits the bill. Feel free to shoot this one down as well.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head anymore but i might research it more to find something from european/american history.

George washington was fond of the night movements(invasion of Trenton). He also encouraged the use of skirmishers and fabian strategy.
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  #46  
Old 05-29-2012, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by codetoast View Post
Kimon,
From what I know of sphacteria, correct me if im wrong. But I believe the athenians won by skirmishing and feining retreat back to the sea. Once the spartans got tired and started heading back to their fort, the athenians came around and sieged their fort. I see your point that it was very different, but im looking for more of a battle where the tactics of skirmishing, moving in secret and dividing an army is used.

I can say the same about your hannibal example. His ambush involved luring the romans into a trap. His army was not divided but was on one side while the lake was on the other side of the roman column.

Check out the British strategy in the battle of long island in the american revolutionary war. This was a loss for them, but kind of fits the bill. Feel free to shoot this one down as well.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head anymore but i might research it more to find something from european/american history.

George washington was fond of the night movements(invasion of Trenton). He also encouraged the use of skirmishers and fabian strategy.
Demosthenes did land additional forces during the night, so I suppose you could argue that he was concealing a flanking force, which did massacre a number of the Spartan defenders. Then Comon led a detachment of Messenians through a pass to complete the envelopment. So, if you stretch the comparison, I suppose there are some similarities, but it was still essentially a small scale siege. The primary significance of Sphacteria was psychological, in that the resulting surrender of the few remaining Spartans broke the myth that Spartans only come home "with their shields, or on them". It took a couple more years, but this battle did eventually play a role in the brief Peace of Nicias, and the short cessation of hostilities in the middle of the war. Nonetheless, unlike the Hawkwing vs. Amalasan battle, it lacked the gravitas of a battle with both sides possessing first rate generals. Demosthenes, as I noted before was a reliable general, but the Spartan commanders present - primarily Epitadas, were second rate at best. It also lacked cavalry forces (this not surprising given that neither the Athenians nor the Spartans ever made much use of cavalry), and was much smaller in scale. Moreover, there was no feint at retreat. The only confusion that the Spartans really could have had was whether or not Demosthenes would truly attempt an attack, or merely try to starve them out.

As for Trasimene, Hannibal did divide his forces. He concealed most of his cavalry and a sizable contingent of infantry (most of his Gallic forces) in the dense woods above the narrow pass along the northern shore of the lake, with his heavy infantry (mostly his Spanish and African levies) in plain sight at the back of the pass. It was thus similar to Thermopylae, except when the Romans were lured in against his heavy infantry, he sprang the trap and his cavalry and Gallic infantry fell upon the Romans all but completely obliterating them - about 15,000 were killed outright (including their commander - Flaminius), and 10,000 were taken captive. The only problem however with this battle, is while one side, the Carthaginians, had a commander that was clearly as great as Hawkwing or Amalasan, Flaminius was not so worthy of such distinction.

Last edited by Kimon; 05-29-2012 at 12:41 PM.
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  #47  
Old 05-29-2012, 12:59 PM
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It wouldn't surprise me if RJ took one element of this battle, and another element of that; it was his style. We know that Alan had Brandon read up on specific battles for Tarmon Gai'don, though, whatever that's worth.
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  #48  
Old 05-29-2012, 03:02 PM
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Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codetoast View Post
Kimon,
From what I know of sphacteria, correct me if im wrong. But I believe the athenians won by skirmishing and feining retreat back to the sea. Once the spartans got tired and started heading back to their fort, the athenians came around and sieged their fort. I see your point that it was very different, but im looking for more of a battle where the tactics of skirmishing, moving in secret and dividing an army is used.

I can say the same about your hannibal example. His ambush involved luring the romans into a trap. His army was not divided but was on one side while the lake was on the other side of the roman column.

Check out the British strategy in the battle of long island in the american revolutionary war. This was a loss for them, but kind of fits the bill. Feel free to shoot this one down as well.

I can't think of anything off the top of my head anymore but i might research it more to find something from european/american history.

George washington was fond of the night movements(invasion of Trenton). He also encouraged the use of skirmishers and fabian strategy.
Mongols. They used their mobility and abilities as excellect horse archers to conquer China, parts of India, Russia, and the Middle/Far East. They were often outnumbered, but on far more battles than they lost due to their strategies.
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  #49  
Old 06-01-2012, 07:21 PM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fionwe1987 View Post
That's... absurd. If Nynaeve "forced" them by calling to their honor, she did nothing wrong. As wife of the King of Malkier, that is exactly her duty, anyway.

Accusing her of being wrong here is like blaming Aemon for the death of his army because he marched them to Manetheren's defense to "save his wife"!
Aemon was defending his nation against attack... Malkier is dead and gone. He did not send his armies into the blight against hopeless odds because his wife happened to be there.

And honour is part of what Malkieri are. They follow the Golden Crane, because to do otherwise would be like an Aiel gai'shan running away. It does not happen except very rarely, and those who do face being despised by everyone for the rest of their lives

"The Malkieri as a people would never have recovered from the shame"

Maybe so, but the Malkieri people themselves would survive. Lan has never raised the banner, because he values his people's lives more than their loyalty.
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  #50  
Old 06-02-2012, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
Aemon was defending his nation against attack... Malkier is dead and gone. He did not send his armies into the blight against hopeless odds because his wife happened to be there.

And honour is part of what Malkieri are. They follow the Golden Crane, because to do otherwise would be like an Aiel gai'shan running away. It does not happen except very rarely, and those who do face being despised by everyone for the rest of their lives

"The Malkieri as a people would never have recovered from the shame"

Maybe so, but the Malkieri people themselves would survive. Lan has never raised the banner, because he values his people's lives more than their loyalty.
But we know that Lan felt a "pull" to the Blight. And prior to his bonding by Moiraine, he went there alone on excursions to fight shadowspawn. I always wondered if that oath was not simply words.
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  #51  
Old 06-02-2012, 03:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasin Natael View Post
Aemon was defending his nation against attack... Malkier is dead and gone.
Prove it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoD, Chapter 20, The Golden Crane
The heat in her eyes seemed to intensify, and she gripped her long, thick braid with one hand. “Lan told me once that Malkier lives so long as one man wears the hadori in pledge that he will fight the Shadow, so long as one woman wears the ki’sain in pledge that she will send her sons to fight the Shadow. I wear the ki’sain. Master Aldrago-ran. My husband wears the hadori. So do you. Will Lan Mandragoran ride to the Last Battle alone?”
All you need do is show that Lan and Nynaeve (and all other Malkieri) are wrong about what their customs mean. That's not too high a standard, is it?
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  #52  
Old 06-03-2012, 05:15 PM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
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Well, it happened with the Aiel.

A) That's like saying that Manetheren still exists because Mat still knows the warcry.

B) Seems out of character for Lan to say that. Consider what he says in the Eye of the World

Quote:
"The Seven Towers are broken[...] and Malkier is dead; the few of her people left, scattered across the face of the earth
That's a direct quote, not secondhand from somebody with every reason to lie (she's trying to assemble an army to go save him)
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  #53  
Old 06-04-2012, 05:19 PM
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But Manetheren does still exist, and partly because Mat knows its Battle Cry. The fact that even one person remembers it is a legacy to the nation that was Manatheren - cheesy perhaps, but no less true.

And your Lan quote is out of context. That's him trying to escape being King of a people he thought didn't want or need him. He was wrong. His people were just waiting for him to accept his role as their King and to lead the fight against the Blight and the Shadow. If they get Malkier back as a result, then so much the better, but they have to fight for it first.
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