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  #141  
Old 05-04-2012, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
they both channel the OP you dummy.
Yes, they both can channel, but they both gained prominence in/through a traditon bound organization that consists of nothing but Channelers without either being ta'veren.

Either or both could have remained in training and without influence, as many sisters of all power levels have.
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  #142  
Old 05-04-2012, 04:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
Either or both could have remained in training and without influence, as many sisters of all power levels have.
you've just proven my point.

non-ta'veren have considerable flexibility within their own lives. Ta'veren do not.

Channeling is genetic: you're either born with it or you're not. This is aside from the situation into which one is born, obviously.

Being a ta'veren has everything to do with what the Pattern wants, it's not genetic at all. If anything, it's soul-based.
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Last edited by yks 6nnetu hing; 05-04-2012 at 04:32 AM.
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  #143  
Old 05-04-2012, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Ishara View Post
Sure, over thousands of years he's got Aiel Blood on both sides, but then, he's also got loads of other blood mixed in there too! I mean, he's also distantly related to Ishara, who was described as being as dark as an Athan Miere. We know that the Andoran Royal line draws their colouring from their Aiel ancestry - or at least it's a reasonable assumption - but it's a bit of a stretch to call his blood from Tigraine Aiel too, in my opinion.

All that being said, the coloumns work on the basis of gender, so it's a moot point, really.
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Ahh, I thought they were statues for some reason. I always figured that the coloring must have been preserved purposefully not only with Rhea's descendants, but also the other women who were captured with her. It just seems odd that the royal family would have this coloring, but hardly anyone else in Andor. So if it wasn't already a royal family trait at the time of Ishara, then perhaps it was bred in later. But it does indicate selective breeding. I think there might be a lot of relative inbreeding in the royal family due to the way Andor judges strength of claim. Like, marrying third cousins and whatnot.
I think that clues regarding coloring can be gleamed from Rand (who is incidently Tam's red-headed step-child lol) and Galad. Both have the same mother, Tigraine (who had golden hair) but Rand has a presumably red-headed father (Janduin) while Galad has a presumably dark-haired father (Taringail). So it seems that the aiel coloring is recessive on Tigraine's side since apparently both Rand and Galad take after their fathers. However, both Elayne and Gawyn take after Morgase.
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  #144  
Old 05-04-2012, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weird Harold
Either or both could have remained in training and without influence, as many sisters of all power levels have.
you've just proven my point.

non-ta'veren have considerable flexibility within their own lives. Ta'veren do not.
No I haven't. They could have remained insignificant, but the Pattern needed them to be Amyrlin in their turn, so they each became Amyrlin against all precedent against them.

RJ says they aren't ta'veren, and Siuan Sanche at least can't lay the blame for her meteoric rise on the Three Amigos -- who are the only active ta'veren according to RJ and they did not become ta'veren until the beginning of tEotW.


Your initial assertion --
Quote:
Originally Posted by yks 6nnetu hing
it's the other way around, actually. A fisherman does not become a king unless he's ta'veren but if he's ta'veren then he cannot become anything other than a king.
-- describes Siuan Sanche except for gender and the fact she isn't ta'veren. Her ability to Channel had little to do with her rise to Amyrlin other than being a prerequisite for the job.

The Tower Split was Foretold 3,000 years ago as part of the KC. The Wheel/Pattern can't power a Foretelling that far into the future without controlling the lives of everyone who is reborn in the intervening years. There is free will in the WOT, but it is mostly on the level of which shirt to wear with which pants.
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  #145  
Old 05-04-2012, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Weird Harold View Post
No I haven't. They could have remained insignificant, but the Pattern needed them to be Amyrlin in their turn, so they each became Amyrlin against all precedent against them.

RJ says they aren't ta'veren, and Siuan Sanche at least can't lay the blame for her meteoric rise on the Three Amigos -- who are the only active ta'veren according to RJ and they did not become ta'veren until the beginning of tEotW.


Your initial assertion --


-- describes Siuan Sanche except for gender and the fact she isn't ta'veren. Her ability to Channel had little to do with her rise to Amyrlin other than being a prerequisite for the job.

The Tower Split was Foretold 3,000 years ago as part of the KC. The Wheel/Pattern can't power a Foretelling that far into the future without controlling the lives of everyone who is reborn in the intervening years. There is free will in the WOT, but it is mostly on the level of which shirt to wear with which pants.
and where are your quotes from the books to back that up?

because here:
Quote:
TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 42 - Remembrance of Dreams

"So they are," Moiraine said. "Three of them, when I expected one. A great many things have happened that I did not expect. This news concerning the Eye of the World changes much." She paused, frowning. "For a time the Pattern does seem to be swirling around all three of you, just as Loial says, and the swirl will grow greater before it becomes less. Sometimes being ta'veren means the Pattern is forced to bend to you, and sometimes it means the Pattern forces you to the needed path. The Web can still be woven many ways, and some of those designs would be disastrous. For you, for the world.
The Pattern is not predetermined.

Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 3 - Friends and Enemies

"For a time, the Wheel will bend the Pattern around you three, whatever you do. And whatever you do is more likely to be chosen by the Wheel than by you. Ta'veren pull history along behind them and shape the Pattern just by being, but the Wheel weaves Ta'veren on a tighter line than other men. Wherever you go and whatever you do, until the Wheel chooses otherwise you will-"
Quote:
TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 15 - Kinslayer

"Oh, I know the name you use now, Lews Therin. I know every name you have used through Age after Age, long before you were even the Kinslayer." Ba'alzamon's voice began to rise in intensity; sometimes the fires of his eyes flared so high that Rand could see them through the openings in the silk mask, see them like endless seas of flame. "I know you, know your blood and your line back to the first spark of life that ever was, back to the First Moment. You can never hide from me. Never! We are tied together as surely as two sides of the same coin. Ordinary men may hide in the sweep of the Pattern, but ta'veren stand out like beacon fires on a hill, and you, you stand out as if ten thousand shining arrows stood in the sky to point you out! You are mine, and ever in reach of my hand!"
Quote:
TITLE: Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 2 - Saidin

"Ta'veren," Loial began. Perrin waved at him to stop, but the Ogier could seldom be slowed, much less stopped, when one of his enthusiasms had him in its grip. He was accounted extremely hasty, by the Ogier way of looking at things. Loial pushed his book into a coat pocket and went on, gesturing with his pipe. "All of us, all of our lives, affect the lives of others, Min. As the Wheel of Time weaves us into the Pattern, the life-thread of each of us pulls and tugs at the life-threads around us. Ta'veren are the same, only much, much more so. They tug at the entire Pattern - for a time, at least - forcing it to shape around them. The closer you are to them, the more you are affected personally. It's said that if you were in the same room with Artur Hawkwing, you could feel the Pattern rearranging itself. I don't know how true that is, but I've read that it was. But it doesn't only work one way. Ta'veren themselves are woven to a tighter line than the rest of us, with fewer choices. "
It's starting to seem likely to me that Egwene's ascent to Amyrlin is directly related to how close she was to Rand. For his purposes for the Pattern, he needed a someone he would be able to trust as Amyrlin (i.e. not the typical scheming faceless Aes Sedai) and Egwene got pulled along in that because she was so close to Rand. She still has some choices of her own though, as are evidenced by her Dreams: whether to bond Gawyn or not for example. While Rand has no choice at all in whether to love 3 women or just pick one, apparently.



those quotes are only from the first 3 books, there's loads more. If you want to dive into a detailed study of ta'veren, look into Mat's Bag of Unending Complaints, or the constant whining of Rand or Perrin and the responses given by Loial, Moiraine and Verin.
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  #146  
Old 05-05-2012, 11:24 AM
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Mat's Bag of Unending Complaints
Best. Description. Ever.
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  #147  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:12 AM
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If I could jump back several pages in the discussion to the columns for the moment...

I don't think anyone else could have entered the columns a second time before Aviendha did her thing.

Notice that Aviendha doesn't walk though them a second time until after she has another vision. She goes through once, and then walks away to sit at the base of Avendesora and think. Then she gets up and examines the columns, before deciding to leave.

Quote:
That gave her a chill. Was she touching the pillar, or was it touching her?

She tried to read ter'angreal as she had done before, but this one was vast. Incomprehensible, like the One Power itself. She inhaled sharply, disoriented by the weight of what she felt. It was as if she had suddenly fallen into a deep, dark pit.

She snapped her eyes open, pulling her hand away, palm quivering. This was beyond her. She was an insect, trying to grasp the size and mass of a mountain. She took a breath to steady herself, then shook her head. There was nothing more to be done here.

She turned from the glass pillars and took a step.(emp. added)

She was Malidra...
She turned to leave, and then had another vision. After the vision ends, she's still in the square:

Quote:
"Bloody Aiel," Flern said as her sight faded.

Aviendha's foot hit the flagstone in Rhuidean's square, and she blinked in shock. The sun had changed in the sky above. Hours had passed.
She debates, and then decides to re-enter the columns:

Quote:
She took a hesitant step away from the glass columns, and nothing happened. No further visions. Disturbed, she began to walk from the plaza.

Then she slowed.

Hesitantly she turned back. The columns stood in the dimming light, quiet and alone, seeming to buzz with an unseen energy.

Was there more?

...

But she had come seeking knowledge. She would not leave without it. She turned and—taking a deep breath—walked up to the pillars.

Then took a step.
I think this suggests that the columns would not have worked a second time for anyone else. The only other person we see go through the columns is Rand, and he doesn't get an extra vision after exiting them. So why did Aviendha? Too, it's this extra vision that entices her to take a second trip through the columns. Taken all together, I think it strongly implies that it was her meddling that changed something about the columns.


To sum up:

1. Aviendha had an extra vision outside of the columns.
2. The only other person we see go through the columns didn't haven an extra vision after he exited the columns.
3. She moved around the plaza without getting the extra vision. It only occurred after she examined the columns with her talent.
4. The second sequence of visions didn't continue until she re-entered the columns.
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  #148  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:24 AM
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I think most people agree she had the second set of visions because she touched the columns.
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  #149  
Old 06-08-2012, 11:30 AM
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I think most people agree she had the second set of visions because she touched the columns.
That's not the impression i got from the first few pages of this thread.
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