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  #21  
Old 04-11-2012, 05:19 PM
BobH BobH is offline
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Default Another Possibility

The 2nd stanza of the DP reads:

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?


That sounds like pure Ishamael propaganda, to me. It’s basically telling Rand “you have two options – serve the Great Lord (the sheltering hand) and have life eternal, or serve the Light/Creator (the slaying hand) and die the final death. It’s essentially the same temptation he bludgeoned Rand with throughout the first 3 books.

If we accept that, then the 1st stanza about Lanfear is odd in that it suggests an outcome (that her “new lover will serve her and die, yet still serve”) for Rand (if we equate “new lover” to Rand) that is different (and more importantly, much less appealing) than the outcome that the 2nd stanza is trying to tempt Rand with (i.e. life eternal as the Great Lord’s servant).

In that context, I think the 1st stanza about Lanfear was intended as a warning to Rand. It’s saying that Lanfear is seeking a new lover, and IF SHE CAN SEDUCE THE MAN SHE SEEKS (I’m adding that as something implied by, but not explicitly stated by, this portion of the DP), he will end up serving her, and dying, and serving her still. Not a pleasant outcome, and quite different from the temptation offered in the 2nd stanza re life eternal in the service of the Great Lord.

In other words, I think the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand (from Ishamael) that if he falls for Lanfear, the outcome will NOT be pleasant. And that instead, Rand should serve him & the Great Lord directly, in order to enjoy life eternal.

And since I believe that when RJ said that “a Myrddraal wrote the DP, on orders, as a threat”, the “on orders” part meant “on orders from Ishamael”, the idea that the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand, from Ishamael, to beware Lanfear makes a lot of sense to me. He never wanted Rand to succumb to Lanfear, he wanted Rand to succumb to HIM, and therefore was warning Rand away from her.

So bottom line is, I don’t think Rand will ever serve Lanfear, die, and then server her still. The time when that might have happened has long since passed, I think. I do think there is still a Lanfear-Rand interaction that has yet to play out – the end of ToM makes that pretty clear, I just don’t think it will involve him serving her, dying in that service, and then still serving her afterwards, as Zombie suggests.
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  #22  
Old 04-11-2012, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH View Post
The 2nd stanza of the DP reads:

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?


That sounds like pure Ishamael propaganda, to me. It’s basically telling Rand “you have two options – serve the Great Lord (the sheltering hand) and have life eternal, or serve the Light/Creator (the slaying hand) and die the final death. It’s essentially the same temptation he bludgeoned Rand with throughout the first 3 books.

If we accept that, then the 1st stanza about Lanfear is odd in that it suggests an outcome (that her “new lover will serve her and die, yet still serve”) for Rand (if we equate “new lover” to Rand) that is different (and more importantly, much less appealing) than the outcome that the 2nd stanza is trying to tempt Rand with (i.e. life eternal as the Great Lord’s servant).

In that context, I think the 1st stanza about Lanfear was intended as a warning to Rand. It’s saying that Lanfear is seeking a new lover, and IF SHE CAN SEDUCE THE MAN SHE SEEKS (I’m adding that as something implied by, but not explicitly stated by, this portion of the DP), he will end up serving her, and dying, and serving her still. Not a pleasant outcome, and quite different from the temptation offered in the 2nd stanza re life eternal in the service of the Great Lord.

In other words, I think the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand (from Ishamael) that if he falls for Lanfear, the outcome will NOT be pleasant. And that instead, Rand should serve him & the Great Lord directly, in order to enjoy life eternal.

And since I believe that when RJ said that “a Myrddraal wrote the DP, on orders, as a threat”, the “on orders” part meant “on orders from Ishamael”, the idea that the 1st stanza is a warning to Rand, from Ishamael, to beware Lanfear makes a lot of sense to me. He never wanted Rand to succumb to Lanfear, he wanted Rand to succumb to HIM, and therefore was warning Rand away from her.

So bottom line is, I don’t think Rand will ever serve Lanfear, die, and then server her still. The time when that might have happened has long since passed, I think. I do think there is still a Lanfear-Rand interaction that has yet to play out – the end of ToM makes that pretty clear, I just don’t think it will involve him serving her, dying in that service, and then still serving her afterwards, as Zombie suggests.
I think possibly that is a bit of a stretch, since you're attempting to use something that's written with alternatives to disprove something that's written authoratively. I don't think that the two verses are directly comparable in that way, although there's obviously some foreshadowing of the possible futures Moiraine saw in there. We know that there are forms of prophecy that can predict multiple possibilities, so it's not out of the question that the verse does refer to that.

Regarding whether or not is prophecy, I found the quote which I think Terez was referring to when she said RJ said it was prophecy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005
TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)
WEEK 10 QUESTION
In The Great Hunt, who wrote the Dark Prophecy on the dungeon wall in Fal Dara? And why, after Ingtar released Padan Fain from the dungeon, did Fain decide to go to Toman Head? We know he was rebelling against Ishamael's orders (he was supposed to follow the Myrddraal to Shayol Ghul) but why did Fain go to Cairhien and then to Toman Head?
ROBERT JORDAN
A Myrddraal wrote the Dark Prophecy on orders, as a threat. I might want to use some of the reasons, so the rest on that is RAFO.

Fain (now amalgamated with Mordeth) was seeking his own power base, something he would try again with Pedron Niall and Toram Riatin. He wanted enough power to be able to kill Rand, Mat and Perrin, though most especially Rand, and to protect himself against agents of the Shadow. Because of Darkfriend reports, the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy already knew who the strangers on Toman Head were, or claimed to be: Artur Hawkwing's armies returned to reclaim the lands stolen from Hawkwing's heirs. He knew that they collared women who could channel, which appealed to Fain/Mordeth, since one disliked Aes Sedai at best and the other purely hated them. The Myrddraal didn't simply give this up to Fain, you understand. Fain is one of the few people who could successfully torture information out of one of the Eyeless. As for why he went to Cairhien first, he knew the location of the Waygate there (along with several others and how to read the guidings in the Ways, this last from Mordeth) and preferred to use the Ways rather than make the longer cross-country journey from Fal Dara to Toman Head.
Emphasis mine. You can see that the questioner refers to it as prophecy. RJ had earlier RAFO'd a direct question about whether it was prophecy or just a taunt, so I don't think he'd give it away in such a throwaway manner. Rather, he was probably shortening "Dark Prophecy" to "prophecy" as a form of shorthand. My thinking on it has always been that there are elements of prophecy and elements which are just Trolloc grafitti. I tend to think that the bits which aren't stating authoritatively what will happen in the future are taunts, given in the knowledge the Dragon Reborn would likely see them; this includes the first verse where it says Rand stands alone and gives his friends for sacrifice, etc. But if you were doing something like this, using a prophecy as a taunt, it would stand to reason to make some parts sound worse than they are. No doubt the Myrddraal who wrote the prophecy wasn't the original source of it, and it may well have been intentionally altered - it's not like Ishamael wasn't up to corrupting prophecy for his own advantage, after all.
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  #23  
Old 04-11-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobH View Post
That sounds like pure Ishamael propaganda, to me. It’s basically telling Rand “you have two options – serve the Great Lord (the sheltering hand) and have life eternal, or serve the Light/Creator (the slaying hand) and die the final death. It’s essentially the same temptation he bludgeoned Rand with throughout the first 3 books.
I read the choices in the exact opposite meaning.

The Dark One seeks to stop the Wheel and end existence, which seems like a match for "death beyond dying." If Rand fights for the Creator and wins, then the Wheel continues to turn and he'll be spun out again, "life eternal."

Of course, that would make this a prophecy that touches on the end of everything/DO winning which most prophecies we know of have an issue with. Would dark prophecies have the same issue, given the origin?
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  #24  
Old 04-14-2012, 08:39 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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We are also assuming that even though it is prophecy, it doesn't mean it's absolute. Like how regular prophecy would become void if the DO wins, maybe DP becomes void when the light wins.

Remember what Moiraine said to Rand? Even though there are prophecies about him, he can still die and all those prophecies become void and the DO wins. Well, maybe when Lanfear died or whatever happened to her in Finnland, the prophecies about her and Rand became void, thus proving Moiraine right about how rash actions can get you killed prophecy or no prophecy.
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  #25  
Old 09-28-2012, 02:23 PM
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I saw a tweet by Felix about the dark prophecy in TGH.
I don't remember the details in the tweet but the section about "the dark one comes" he speculated might mean that the DO would impregnate Graendal.

I presume we shouldn't take that theory seriously.
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  #26  
Old 09-28-2012, 03:01 PM
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  #27  
Old 09-29-2012, 02:55 AM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
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Default Lanfear still an Eve/Pandora parallel

Lanfear is still an Eve/Pandora figure and should end up helping Rand defeat the Dark One. She has been fairly honest that taking the Dark One out of the equation would suit her fine. So to serve her, Rand needs to help her rectify her mistake of opening the Bore. Poor Ishamael has misinterpreted the prophecy, assuming serving Lanfear means Rand is converted to evil. Foretellings are given by the Pattern, and thus serve the Pattern's design. That wording was provided by the Pattern to mislead the Forsaken.

It doesn't seem to be specified who ordered the Myrddraal to write the prophecy. I had some thoughts on Lanfear's role in my reread, on the assumption that Jordan meant for it to be somewhat obvious when the book is considered as a whole. Here is the relevant part:

It’s not as easy to unravel the haphazard plotting of the Forsaken, and this proves to be a flaw in the storytelling, or perhaps a feature so far as Theorylanders might see it. Ba’alzamon’s ranting during his occasional encounters with Rand has little to do with Toman Head or anything other than rehashing what will happen to Rand if he keeps channeling without Ba’alzamon’s help. The Trolloc incursion at Fal Dara and theft of the Horn can’t be tied to him, and since Lanfear’s presence was felt in the fortress before the night of the attack, it had to have been her who organized it. “Ishamael thinks he controls events, but I do.” She isn’t completely independent, since Ba’alzamon was able to track Rand down in both a Mirror World and shortly after his reappearance on Toman Head. Ba’alzamon’s main focus for this novel was overseeing the Seanchan invasion, and trying to send Rand’s allies to captivity as damane. Lanfear trailed Rand for most of his journey, attempting to shape him, leaving his side only when she might be exposed as a liar. She is unperturbed by the fact that the Myrddraal failed to take the Horn north to Shayol Ghul, the fact that Rand chases after it is enough. Rand is her prize, not the Horn. When Fain escapes through the Waygate, Lanfear’s lever to prod Rand is taken with him, and she kills Barthanes messily for allowing this to happen. She now realizes to what extent Fain sets his own path. Though Barthanes must have told her where Fain went, her only hope to keep shaping Rand lies with him chasing down the Horn, so she does not interfere. She dare not meet Rand while he is with his friends, and his four month absence by Portal Stone keeps her away until after the battle at Falme.

The outstanding question of who wrote the Dark Prophecy, and a few other questions readers are reminded of throughout the book, is finally answered by Moiraine. Her last minute revelation about Padan Fain and Mordeth is meant to provide closure to the outstanding questions. Readers knew Fain had secret knowledge and newfound powers, if not their extent, now they know how he acquired them. He is the only character who spoke openly of luring Rand to Toman Head, scrawling his own message in blood for Rand to read, alongside the Dark Prophecy in neatly printed Trolloc script. Whether his knowledge comes from Mordeth, or was gleaned from Ba’alzamon in earlier trips to Shayol Ghul is yet to be determined.
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  #28  
Old 10-01-2012, 04:58 AM
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We know that it's sometimes hard to find a literal translation for the old tongue and some translations aren't very exact.

What if "Daughter of the Night" is a mistranslation for "Daughter of the nine moons"?

The ancient war would then refer to the war between Hawkwing and the AS and the shining walls kneeling could be referring to the first or second attack against the white tower by the seanchan.

Her new lover would be Mat (has she had a previous one?) who has certainly served and died too although that was before they met.
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  #29  
Old 10-01-2012, 05:58 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Some problems with that:
Tuon hasn't had a previous lover.
The one who did the translation was Verin, and I don't think she would make such a mistake. Of course, I'm not sure what language she translated it from (whether it was written in a Trolloc language or the Old Tongue), so there's that.
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  #30  
Old 10-02-2012, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Sammael View Post
I think possibly that is a bit of a stretch, since you're attempting to use something that's written with alternatives to disprove something that's written authoratively. I don't think that the two verses are directly comparable in that way, although there's obviously some foreshadowing of the possible futures Moiraine saw in there. We know that there are forms of prophecy that can predict multiple possibilities, so it's not out of the question that the verse does refer to that.
I understood the point to be that a prophecy we are pretty sure is true (the one quoted) is directly contradicting a prophecy we KNOW to be true (Karaetheon Cycle), at least in intent. Therefore, if you cast doubt on the validity of one, you cast doubt on everything in that prophecy.

On the other hand, the Shadow Prophecy makes no mention whatsoever about which actions lead to which options. It could still mean that choosing the Light means life eternal (as a Hero) and choosing the Shadow never-ending death. The it syncs with all other available prophecies, just implies the opposite.
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  #31  
Old 10-02-2012, 11:32 AM
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Come to think of it, I think that no one ever bothered to inform Rand of this particular prophecy. Guess it's none of his business.
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Old 10-02-2012, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Come to think of it, I think that no one ever bothered to inform Rand of this particular prophecy. Guess it's none of his business.
Rand was there after the fade wrote that prophesy in blood so he had a chance to read it.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2012, 05:06 AM
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Yes, he did. But the fact that, at least at the time, he did not know the Trolloc script in which it was written seems to sort of limit the usefulness of that opportunity.
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  #34  
Old 10-03-2012, 07:59 PM
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Very nice, Great Lord! Well thought-out and explained...

It's such a minor point, but - Something suggests to me that Lanfear is even more an analogue for Lilith than for Eve, tho. What do you think?
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2012, 10:30 PM
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Default Lilith is minor

Yes, as a first 'wife' set aside, there's a bit of Lilith in Lanfear as well, but she is far less well known than Pandora or Eve, who are two of the most renowned mythical women. For story purposes, there is little to be said about Lilith after she is set aside, but opening the box of evil, or tasting the forbidden fruit of knowledge as original sin, introduces the possibility of Rand as the one who redeems her. It's Lanfear's actions as Eve, not Lilith, that set up the circumstances requiring his sacrifice, which is the crux of the story. When Rand faces the Dark One, it will be to save all humanity, even the worst elements of it like Lanfear and the Forsaken. I give a lot of importance to Lanfear's role because she was revealed early on, and an author ought to be showing readers the people who matter most early in the story. Thematically, the early attention to her makes more sense in her role as Eve/Pandora.
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Old 10-05-2012, 08:54 PM
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Very nice! I personally always thought that part of the Torah's story about Lillith was co-opted for Xianity's Eve - namely, that she's the "mother of evil," something made more explicit by Lillith pimping herself out to the Devil. In Eve's case, it was introducing evil into the world; in Lillith's case, it's actually joining Satan's side and "birthing evil." (Yes, the Torah has not).

But you're right, Pandora and Eve are more well-known, and may be more appropriate, despite all my thoughts aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
Yes, as a first 'wife' set aside, there's a bit of Lilith in Lanfear as well, but she is far less well known than Pandora or Eve, who are two of the most renowned mythical women. For story purposes, there is little to be said about Lilith after she is set aside, but opening the box of evil, or tasting the forbidden fruit of knowledge as original sin, introduces the possibility of Rand as the one who redeems her. It's Lanfear's actions as Eve, not Lilith, that set up the circumstances requiring his sacrifice, which is the crux of the story. When Rand faces the Dark One, it will be to save all humanity, even the worst elements of it like Lanfear and the Forsaken. I give a lot of importance to Lanfear's role because she was revealed early on, and an author ought to be showing readers the people who matter most early in the story. Thematically, the early attention to her makes more sense in her role as Eve/Pandora.
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Old 10-12-2012, 08:27 PM
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Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still.


My guess here is this is partially fulfilled when
Rand in TSR 26 're-lived' thru ancestor Charn - a servant of Mierin who died in 2nd Age.
(serving in the past but re-lived in the present)

yet serve still --- this is unfulfilled. i think Rand would possibly rescue or serve Cyndane
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  #38  
Old 10-13-2012, 05:16 PM
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Default same dark prophecy

Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great
Lord comes.



Really cool nugget to find in this Dark Prophecy something that dovetails with Aviendha's viewing in Rhuidean- a future conflict between the Raven Empire (the seed of the Hammer) and the Aiel (ancient failing to follow the Way of Leaf)
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:26 PM
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Default same dark prophecy

Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.


I am guessing this phrase refers to a
philosophical truism - bloodshed begets more bloodshed, wars beget more wars, as each side tries to settle old scores.

The phrase being repeated four times might have
some significance (or not).
I can only guess that there would be also be four major encounters between Rand forces and Seanchan.
1. Toman Head - Horn of Valere
2. Tarabon/Arad Doman - Ituralde campaign
3. Illian/Ebou Dar - Rand with Callandor
4. Seanchan v White Tower strike -

There might still be an impending Seanchan attack on WT. and the (2) and (3) listed above might be considered just one campaign.

I'm more than interested seeing other views on this.
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Old 10-23-2012, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, but that didn't happen, so it can't fulfill the prophecy, can it? Foretellings are supposed to be absolute, and this one has the form of a Foretelling. And RJ seemed to confirm it was a legitimate prophecy.
I don't think that's true. A lot of characters who should know (everyone from Moraine to Siuan to Lanfear herself) have told us that prophecies are mearly what might happen, not what will happen. In fact, people say over and over again that if Rand is killed early, the prophecies of the dragon simply will not happen and then the dark one wins, and that a prophecy doesn't stop your thread from being cut from the pattern.

The only prophecies we've seen that it's implied *must* come true are Min's viewings. I think everything else is up for grabs. And the thing we have been specifically told can prevent a prophecy, which is the prophecy's subject being removed from the pattern prematurely before the prophecy can come true, is what happened to Lanfear. I think that this prophecy is what would have happened if Moraine hadn't intervened.
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