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  #41  
Old 04-18-2012, 11:50 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is online now
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She kept Rand from making too many mistakes. She kept Mat from making too many mistakes. The latter, by the implied threat that the Wise Ones might foist another "teacher" on him, if he did cross the line.
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  #42  
Old 04-18-2012, 12:42 PM
Edynol Edynol is offline
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Yeah I know, but several people have done those things. I guess what I'm saying is that other than being one of Rand's love interests and the relationships she has with the other main characters, she hasn't really done anything to stand.

But having said that, I do think she is gonna have a major impact in AMoL when she sets out to make her visions not come true. I still think she is going to find the song and bring the Tinkers and Aiel back together.
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  #43  
Old 04-22-2012, 02:23 AM
McCaber McCaber is offline
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Most incompetent? Tenobia, for hauling the keystone of the Borderlands' defense down to yell at Rand instead of actually making sure their kingdoms were safe.

Bonus points go to Elayne for constantly getting kidnapped by Darkfriends, but even she has only put herself in danger and not the entire rest of the world.

And for all Tenobia and Bashere might be Darkfriends, for now they're still nominally heroes, so they count here.
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  #44  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:27 AM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by McCaber View Post
Most incompetent? Tenobia, for hauling the keystone of the Borderlands' defense down to yell at Rand instead of actually making sure their kingdoms were safe.
Well, consider the following two points.

1) The Borderlanders were told that if the Dragon Reborn reacted wrongly, then they needed to kill him, or the Dark One would win.

2) They still left enough troops to hold back, in their words, anything short of the Trolloc Wars.

The point was that if Rand reacted incorrectly, then it would be better for the world to be overrun with Trollocs. That kind of takes precedence over leaving extra troops behind, in case the biggest invasion of the Borderlands in 1000 years takes place. Even then, they were gone FAR longer than they were planning on being gone. They were diverted by Elayne, into going to the wrong place, and then got bogged down by the winter.

That's like saying Moiraine was incompetent because she didn't Heal Rand after his fight with Lanfear.
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  #45  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:51 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is online now
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On the other hand, they did have some reason to assume that Tarmon Gai'don would not be "short of the Trolloc Wars".
And if they had approached Rand at the wrong moment, they probably couldn't have killed him anyway, as he would then have blasted them to pieces using the TP. Which, in turn, would have increased the likelyhood of a victory for the Shadow even more.

When confronting a single man, 100 soldiers are probably no less likely to be effective than 1,000. The other 199,000 the Borderlands took with them were definitely useless at best, and a liability more likely.
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  #46  
Old 04-22-2012, 04:58 AM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
On the other hand, they did have some reason to assume that Tarmon Gai'don would not be "short of the Trolloc Wars".
Except, again, they were planning to be back by Tarmon Gaidon, and what they were doing was more important than stopping the Trollocs.

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And if they had approached Rand at the wrong moment, they probably couldn't have killed him anyway, as he would then have blasted them to pieces using the TP. Which, in turn, would have increased the likelyhood of a victory for the Shadow even more.
Yes. They admitted that they weren't sure on how they would go about killing him, if the need should arise. But what matter is death, in the face of duty, to a Borderlander? They'd die, but they'd die doing their duty. And no, it wouldn't have increased the likelihood of a victory for the Shadow. Prophecy flat out told them that all was lost if he answered incorrectly. Nothing else matters, if he answered incorrectly.
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  #47  
Old 04-22-2012, 05:14 AM
David Selig David Selig is offline
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Why are you specifically blaming Tenobia? I thought she just went along with what the other Borderland monarchs suggested. The prophesy came from Paitar's family, and Ethenielle seem to have been more influential in arranging the expedition than Tenobia.

It was a really dumb idea, of course, whoever came up with it. There was no need for the monarchs to take those huge armies with them, it only slowed them down and risked starting a massive war along the way.
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  #48  
Old 04-22-2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Why are you specifically blaming Tenobia? I thought she just went along with what the other Borderland monarchs suggested. The prophesy came from Paitar's family, and Ethenielle seem to have been more influential in arranging the expedition than Tenobia.

It was a really dumb idea, of course, whoever came up with it. There was no need for the monarchs to take those huge armies with them, it only slowed them down and risked starting a massive war along the way.
The need for the large armies was likely due to the possibility that they knew from Paitar's prophecy that they might have to find themselves at odds with the Dragon should he be incapable of answering the question. There was also the fact that they likely viewed the fate of the Borderlands as secondary to winning the actual war. And, of course, there is also the fact that they now also serve as a ta'veren windfall for Al'Thor at Merrilor, giving him a massive show of force to use in presumably not only forcing the Aes Sedai to go along with his plan to break the seals, but also perhaps in imposing the Dragon's Peace. Regardless, arguing for Tenobia as the most incompetent hero is silly for a much more simple reason. She is not a hero.
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  #49  
Old 04-22-2012, 07:13 PM
maleshub maleshub is offline
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Cannot honestly single out one of the main heroes for glaring incompetence. More than one character had a spell, long or short, of incompetence or mistakes. But that was offset by achievements.

One way to tackle this is to list failures; and the most incompetent would not be a hero; but an institution: The White Tower.

Again, this isn't a black and white issue as I can list many of the important things the WT achievements. But as an institution, it is just recovered from a series of debacles that have relegated its role from leader of the Light to almost afterthought.

Mat strikes me as a hero with the least failures. Surprisingly, he fulfilled most of the tasks he was out to do or ordered to fulfill, some of them voluntary. So, he's definitely out of this topic.

Labeling Avienda as incompetent would require a list of her failures. And I don't think she failed in her main tasks. At the start, she was stubbornly trying to resist her destiny with Rand; but she didn't fail as he still fell in love with her. I cannot remember where in the books I can remember that she failed others. Most of her failure was to herself (sacrificing her time with Rand for her toh to Elayne).

Criticism of Siuan as a failure (in staying Amyrlin) has its basis. She admits it herself; and has paid the price. But her failure was caused by a more important goal: The Dragon Reborn and his importance over the WT. She saw the priorities right; and that is not a failure.
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  #50  
Old 04-23-2012, 06:01 AM
Jasin Natael Jasin Natael is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McCaber View Post
Most incompetent? Tenobia, for hauling the keystone of the Borderlands' defense down to yell at Rand instead of actually making sure their kingdoms were safe.

Bonus points go to Elayne for constantly getting kidnapped by Darkfriends, but even she has only put herself in danger and not the entire rest of the world.

And for all Tenobia and Bashere might be Darkfriends, for now they're still nominally heroes, so they count here.
Elayne's a Queen. If she is kidnapped successfully, Andor and Cairhien are thrown into civil war.

As for the borderlanders, If Tarmon G'aidon did come, their armies wouldn't be able to hold it back anyway, and Rand would lose two hundred thousand veterans.

Bringing the armies has them to hand if Rand needs them, and allow him to deal with him if he's gone dark.
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  #51  
Old 04-23-2012, 06:30 PM
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Durvasha Durvasha is offline
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Who are the heroes that we are discussing? What is the criteria? Seems anyone who picked up a stick in defense of light is being quoted here.

On that note, is Aviendha really that much of a hero in the series that her failures (I dont know what they are) can be compared with Elayne/Egwene/Perrin/Mat/Rand etc? Yes she is one of Rand's (love interest? wife?) but she never has been that much of a main character. I think Juilin and Thom got more face time than her.

About Siuan, again I do not see how she failed. She was pulled down by those she was trying to save. She made some decisions which the more rabid of her followers did not like, and she made some of those decisions under Taveren influence. How can she be blamed for that? I dont find faults with my heroes for being undiplomatic.

If we look at the achievements, so far I think everyone is achieving their goals. What many of us are doing is attaching blames for battles, and saying that 'ok, he won the war, but what about that battle, where the enemy surprised him (by attacking without declaration of war) and he had to retreat? If we look at where each of them started, what they survived, what they accomplished and where they are now, it will be hard to fault any of them. If we analyzed each and every one of their actions, perhaps we will see that some of them even cant put correct amount of sugar in tea?

I love Mat. When I am rereading a book, first I read all his passages, and then go back to others. But, I think he had the most hilarious incompetence. He failed to escape from a group of soldiers that he didnot want to lead, not once, but again and again. How is that for incompetence?
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  #52  
Old 04-23-2012, 09:37 PM
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Rand al'Fain Rand al'Fain is offline
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Took Mat a while to realize that no matter what, he was stuck with the soldiers that would go on to make the core of the Band of the Red Hand. Still some of the best parts are with Mat, no matter what.
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  #53  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:29 AM
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I'm still trying to figure out what Aiel in Andor people are talking about. By the time of the Perrin Elayne confrontation they are in Arad Doman.

Most incompetent hero is definitely Moiraine. Fails to save a cute kid in New Spring. Spends 20 years trying to find TDR, woefully misinterprets portions of the kareathon cycle, and in the end what does she do? Have a Pajama Party with Lannie. Gawd.
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  #54  
Old 04-24-2012, 02:31 AM
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Most incompetent hero is definitely Moiraine.
I believe you meant to put this in most competent. I know it's cornfusing with the odd wording. If it was up to me it would be least competent and most competent. That way nobody's brain melts.
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  #55  
Old 04-24-2012, 05:01 AM
Flinn Sedai Flinn Sedai is offline
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Originally Posted by Jonai View Post
Most incompetent hero is definitely Moiraine. Fails to save a cute kid in New Spring. Spends 20 years trying to find TDR, woefully misinterprets portions of the kareathon cycle, and in the end what does she do? Have a Pajama Party with Lannie. Gawd.
So, she's incompetent because she failed to single-handedly stop a massive conspiracy of the Black Ajah, on last minute's notice, and came to the wrong conclusions that everybody came to?

She also happened to be the thing that essentially kept Rand sane and non-Dark Rand-y. Even he flat out says that everything went wrong as soon as she was gone.

Also responsible for finding and training the future Amyrlin. But we'll forgive her for that.

Oh, and found the Horn of Valere. And killed Forsaken.

But other than that stuff, totally incompetent.
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  #56  
Old 04-24-2012, 07:49 AM
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Well to be perfectly honest, Loial "found" the horn of valere.
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  #57  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:42 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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I have loved reading these and the ... strong opinions. I never knew that particular characters were disliked so much.

I would like to submit Cadsuane. Back 20 years ago, there was some secret vileness going on by AS. She mentioned it to others, "Were you involved in the vileness twenty years ago?" Cannot remember exactly where, but it was in ACoS, right after she is introduced and I think it is to Merana. This had something to do with Reds illegally gentleing men, perhaps under the orders of the BA trying to get rid of tDR. And she did not stop it.

Secondly, she deliberately kept prodding Rand, even though it was makeing him worse, to the point that he almost kills Tam in a rage, due specifically to her mismanagement.

Last edited by Lost One; 12-15-2012 at 10:45 PM. Reason: too many spelling errors
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