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  #81  
Old 07-20-2012, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by maleshub View Post
But that would give Mat an opening out of his agreement with Elayne. If she spreads knowledge of Dragons beyond their agreement, so can he.
Yes, and I'm sure Aludra will be unhappy about it when the time comes. But it's probably going to happen.

I'm still interested to see what Elayne's white-hot iron and axe are going to be about.
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  #82  
Old 07-20-2012, 04:45 PM
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Why would Mat want to do that? He prefers standing behind them over facing them.
But if knowledge is comprised, he needs another source to make his own Dragons. My hunch is that he'll help Fortuona retake Seanchan with Dragons (or at least Dragons will be involved).

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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
If Mat wants to alter that agreement, then all he has to do is ask the Sea Folk to handle that chore.
Yeah, he could unleash Zaida on Elayne. That would be classic!

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Originally Posted by David Selig View Post
Elayne: You know what, Rand, dealing with 3 assassination attempts per week in Cairhien is getting tiresome. Even my belief in my immortality is starting to waiver a little bit.
Rand: Maybe my arrangement for you to get the throne of a country where assassination and betrayal are the favourite activities wasn't such a good idea...
If Rand is convinced that he needs Moiraine on the Sun Throne, he can probably make Elayne see reason quite convincingly

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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
Yes, and I'm sure Aludra will be unhappy about it when the time comes. But it's probably going to happen.

I'm still interested to see what Elayne's white-hot iron and axe are going to be about.
Aludra won't be happy knowing that her Dragons are in Fortuona's arsenal. But she'll live with it.

BTW, what's the vision with the white-hot iron and axe? I cannot remember it.

Last edited by maleshub; 07-20-2012 at 04:48 PM.
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  #83  
Old 07-20-2012, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TGH
A man's ring of heavy gold floated above Nynaeve's head, and above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe. They meant trouble, she was sure, but it seemed distant, somewhere in the future.
I always mix up white-hot and red-hot. White-hot is Rand (and a bloody hand).
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  #84  
Old 07-20-2012, 05:40 PM
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Could the red-hot iron be the red rod Ter'angreal?
http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/red_rod.html
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  #85  
Old 07-20-2012, 05:49 PM
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It's warm, not hot. And doubtful, since it's not central to her character like the others' strongest viewings were. I suspect it will have something to do with Demandred, when the time comes.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It's warm, not hot. And doubtful, since it's not central to her character like the others' strongest viewings were. I suspect it will have something to do with Demandred, when the time comes.
All loose ends will tie with Demandred.
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  #87  
Old 07-20-2012, 08:08 PM
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There is that, and I have a nice sarcastic section on that amusing fan tendency on my Demandred page, but this has more to do with the actual clues we have about what he has been up to, and the overarching themes that tie them together. He is the captain general for the Battle of Caemlyn, and the evidence is that he plans to force Rand to do something irrational and foolish so that he can be killed. The best way to make him do that is to threaten one of his women. And Demandred is the only Forsaken we know of who has taken any interest in her at all (unless you count Rahvin). Murandy, the Black Tower, the Legion of the Dragon...nearly everything he can be tied to focuses on Caemlyn.
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  #88  
Old 07-21-2012, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Terez View Post
It's warm, not hot. And doubtful, since it's not central to her character like the others' strongest viewings were. I suspect it will have something to do with Demandred, when the time comes.
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I always mix up white-hot and red-hot. White-hot is Rand (and a bloody hand).
Thanks for the clarification. Do you think any of it is linked to Daved Hanlon?
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  #89  
Old 12-22-2012, 01:57 PM
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Terez,

I also believe it would make more sense for Elayne to name Moiraine her regent or viceroy in Cairhien than any scenario where she gives up her crown. Passing the crown would have a high political price, a loss of prestige for Elayne and Houses Trakand. She's taken political steps she can't easily back off from without paying a hefty price.

Moiraine also has no ties to Andor. Ultimately it would make a lot more sense for Elayne to delegate the day to day ruling of Cairhien to Galad and his wife and keep all her royal authority/veto than to organize something like this with Moiraine and Thom. For Berelain it would merely be stepping back into the role.

The problem is Mayene, but so much as be made of the fate and future of Mayene guiding Berelain's actions and decisions I wouldn't be too surprised RJ intended to wipe out Mayene during the LB.

And let's not forget... the western part of Cairhien was once part of Shandalle, the nation where the ancestors of Berelain and Fortuona originate from. Settling the surviving Mayeners there after Mayene itself was wiped out in the LB would be a Return of the Paendrags to their "proper" place. A lot of the cutthroat culture of the Cairhienin in politics seems inherited from the Shandallin and also quite prevalent in Berelain's political culture, and at the Seanchan court itself, mixed with the abstemious, stern culture of the Tovans. After Hawkwing, the people of the western part of the then province (formelly Shandalle) wiped out the nobility of Tova and took control of the whole. The series nor the BWB never revealed if Cairhien was Hawkwing's city or part of Tova originally, but by its style etc., it probably was Tovan and the Paendrag city capital in the Shandallin part of Cairhien has been destroyed (it might have faced Aringill, or located at the point of the triangle, perhaps around the site of that town Mat started his trip south from with the Band as RJ was fond of "symbolic" geogeaphical repetitions like this).

Last edited by Dom; 12-22-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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  #90  
Old 12-22-2012, 04:51 PM
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Terez,

I also believe it would make more sense for Elayne to name Moiraine her regent or viceroy in Cairhien than any scenario where she gives up her crown. Passing the crown would have a high political price, a loss of prestige for Elayne and Houses Trakand. She's taken political steps she can't easily back off from without paying a hefty price.
That's why the thread is entitled 'Moiraine's death is just a ploy in the game'. I think it's quite possible for her to back off of this one, and pretend it was always a part of the plan.
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  #91  
Old 12-22-2012, 06:35 PM
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That's why the thread is entitled 'Moiraine's death is just a ploy in the game'. I think it's quite possible for her to back off of this one, and pretend it was always a part of the plan.
She could get away with this in Cairhien, if it existed in a vaccuum.

It's in Andor she would pay the hefty political price for giving up the Sun Throne. She's sold her nobility all the advantages of her move to claim the Sun Throne, it's too late to back off that. She can't just claim it was all a ploy to have another take the throne of Cairhien. She can't especially step down in favour of another Aes Sedai, one with no ties to Andor and the sister of the much loathed Taringail Damodred beside. This would all look to any political observer like a huge White Tower power play, made at the expense of both nations. The alliances Elayne made with Ghealdan, Mayene would suddenly look most suspicious to everyone (including Berelain and Alliandre), and you can be sure Tenobia would do everything in her power to wriggle out of the situation Faile has entangled Saldaea in. Faile can't inherit if she's dead. Tenobia won't have forgotten Elayne made her deal with the Bordermen as Elayne Sedai, and that she deceived them. The Bordermen never trusted Elayne.

I don't think Elayne would win any popularity or confidence contest with the "unaligned" rulers right now. She's made an alliance with Mayene, that won't sit well with Tear. If it's revealed her children are from Rand, the Tairens and the Council of Nine will be both fear the implications for the Crown of Swords. Elayne's deal with the Seafolk will have a big economic impact on Far Madding in the long run - the goods from the sea of storms or the borderlands no longer need transit through there. And there's the Hall of the Tower that would have much to call Elayne into account for.. the Bargain, the deal with the Kin in the Amyrlin's back, and she's dithering to take the test and the three Oaths (on purpose, she's conveniently forgotten Min's Viewing nothing would harm her babies before birth that time...). If Elayne was an dutiful AS who heeded WT authority well, the WT would see her as a new Mabriam en Sheered, but right now she'll look more like a new Hawkwing, an Hawkwing who is Aes Sedai and has made a private deal with women the WT considers Wilders.

Elayne is both really powerful and in a precarious position right now. If she's not careful, she could well spark other alliances against hers, and the fact she's Aes Sedai and few rulers would believe the WT didn't approve all her moves could harm the WT's efforts to regain its prestige. I don't think giving up the crown of Cairhien in favour of another sister would help anything. On the contrary, it would appear to confirm the WT is behind it all and is attempting to bring the nations into an AS empire to stand against the Seanchan's Return. It could drive Tear or Illian, where AS aren't much loved, right into the Seanchan's camp post TG.

I think the whole thing about Moiraine and Cairhien is foreshadowing for Elayne's struggles as the first Aes Sedai in eons to hold a throne, which Elayne made worse by immediately expanding her influence widely.

My prediction: the whole thing at the end of TOM with Thom telling Moiraine they'd have to explain to Elayne how her Court-Bard is now a warder is foreshadowing for the fact Elayne will solve this by simply asking Moiraine to become her Aes Sedai advisor, giving her a position near Thom. The Elaida-Thom-Morgase triangle will turn into a Moiraine-Elayne-Thom one. And Moiraine might very well have to patch a few things up between Elayne, Egwene and the WT soon! The WT has a very bad track record when it comes to reacting to others becoming too powerful to their tastes... Bonwhin and Hawkwing, Eldrene and Tetsuan... At least with Egwene there, whatever conflict arising will be very short-lived. With Elaida, Elayne faced a conflict in every way as bad as the one between Hawkwing and the WT.

Last edited by Dom; 12-22-2012 at 06:40 PM.
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  #92  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:03 PM
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She could get away with this in Cairhien, if it existed in a vaccuum.

It's in Andor she would pay the hefty political price for giving up the Sun Throne. She's sold her nobility all the advantages of her move to claim the Sun Throne, it's too late to back off that. She can't just claim it was all a ploy to have another take the throne of Cairhien. She can't especially step down in favour of another Aes Sedai, one with no ties to Andor and the sister of the much loathed Taringail Damodred beside. This would all look to any political observer like a huge White Tower power play, made at the expense of both nations.
Not so sure about that. Moiraine's marriage to Thom is significant, and I don't think Thom's reputation among the nobles is quite what it was with Elaida. There are even rumors still floating around that Taringail was killed by someone close to Morgase, so there's that too; I'm sure someone has an inkling it was Thom. But Moiraine is Elayne's aunt by blood, so the two thrones are still strongly tied together. I'm thinking that the Andorans would really prefer for their Queen to be all their own rather than also dedicated to Cairhien, and that they're not too concerned about the power grab.
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  #93  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:43 PM
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Not so sure about that. Moiraine's marriage to Thom is significant, and I don't think Thom's reputation among the nobles is quite what it was with Elaida. There are even rumors still floating around that Taringail was killed by someone close to Morgase, so there's that too; I'm sure someone has an inkling it was Thom. But Moiraine is Elayne's aunt by blood, so the two thrones are still strongly tied together. I'm thinking that the Andorans would really prefer for their Queen to be all their own rather than also dedicated to Cairhien, and that they're not too concerned about the power grab.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, I guess. We'll pick it up after we got the answers.

I think Thom needs to retire from politics. Having Moiraine take up the role of advisor to Elayne is a way it could happen, a way Thom could simply be what he does best: be an artist and entertainer. Moiraine would not let him interfere. Politics always end up bringing out the worse of Thom. His games in Caemlyn ended up costing him his lover, and all that his artistic talent had brought him of renown and standing, sent him on the road to earn his meals with his art. His brief attempt in Cairhien cost him the life of his lover and drove him to self-destruction. Moiraine has done a great thing for Thom himself by pulling him out of the dangerous mess he was getting himself and Rand into in Tear. Mat pulled him out of games that very soon would have backfired and cost him in Ebou Dar (the Seanchan vultures were starting to circle around him, it was only a matter of time before the Seekers took notice of him).

Moiraine doesn't approve of Thom's methods. Moiraine cut herself from her own House to distance herself from such methods and cutthroat politics. Thom when he plays politics is just as bad and as dark as the Damodreds Moiraine despises. I'm quite sure Moiraine will make sure Thom devotes himself to his art and doesn't entangle himself in politics anymore. He finally married a woman who doesn't need that sort of help from him, while making him a warder will satisfy his drive to protect.

Their whole conversation in Tear was laced with her disapproval. What she admires, what perhaps makes her fall in love, is his loyalty to people he commits himself to.

Last edited by Dom; 12-22-2012 at 07:47 PM.
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  #94  
Old 12-22-2012, 07:56 PM
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Part of the great thing about Moiraine and Thom is that they're both known enough to rule mostly by reputation, particularly in these circumstances. And skilled enough to send potent messages in the beginning. I doubt Thom's methods would be quite the same from a position of power as they were from the position of gleeman or even bard, but Moiraine did tell Thom that a quiet life would kill him. And Moiraine distanced herself from her House because of its dark reputation; she hardly distanced herself from the methods by joining the White Tower.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:37 PM
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she hardly distanced herself from the methods by joining the White Tower.
Then spent her career well away from the WT in a way reminiscent of Cadsuane.

Moiraine could play dirty, but it seems to me she always tried to stay away from all that. I have a hard time imagining Moiraine manipulating people into murdering one another to get rid of them, or assassinating inconvenient people.

She's not naive, and she can be hard and make necessary hard decisions, but as far as we know, it's always all in service of her cause against the Shadow, quite different from doing the same to maintain her power/position. We've seen her reject Lan's hint they should kill some innocent people who knew too much, even though there was a risk they'd talk. She's no Siuan, who coldly suggested the same to Egwene for Nicola and Areina.

I don't think Moiraine would make a bad ruler, but it's obvious she has strictly no interest in the job.

Making her Elayne's advisor would be a fitting continuation of her cause. She would devote herself, near her husband, to the Dragon's legacy, helping the woman who managed to hold together the lands he conquered/briefly ruled and making it last post TG. She couldn't educate and form Rand to be the perfect ruler as she envisioned doing in New Spring - she thought he would need to be an accomplished scholar, diplomat and general. Now she'd get the chance to play exactly this role with Rand's and Elayne's twins, play her part so the "new Covenant of Nations" endure. There would be worse causes for Moiraine to take post TG. Elayne has not given much thoughts to the difficulties a ruler also Aes Sedai would face, and she's beginning to see them. Moiraine has given a lot of thought to those matters. Elayne's capable, but she could use someone like Moiraine, especially the post Rhuidean, post Ghenjei Moiraine.

Last edited by Dom; 12-22-2012 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 08:42 PM
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Then spent her career well away from the WT in a way reminiscent of Cadsuane.

Moiraine could play dirty, but it seems to me she always tried to stay away from all that. I have a hard time imagining Moiraine manipulating people into murdering one another to get rid of them, or assassinating inconvenient people.
Just after her conversation with Thom:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSR 21
And power to gain, Moiraine thought. This was his first slip. Aside from deciding on Cairhien over Illian, of course. Alteima would certainly return to Tear on an equal footing with Meilan or Gueyam, ready for more plotting. She would have Rand assassinated before that, if he was not careful. Perhaps an accident could be arranged in Cairhien.
Without a hint of irony.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:05 PM
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Just after her conversation with Thom:


Without a hint of irony.
But all for the Dragon's sake.

In New Spring, she rather said that:

Quote:
(...) no one has ruled Cairhien for long without being willing to stoop to kidnapping, assassination and worse. My great-grandmother, Carewin, ruled more than fifty years, and the Tower calls her a very successful ruler because Cairhien prospered and had few wars under her, but her name is still used to frighten children. Better to be forgotten than remembered like Carewin Damodred, but even with the Tower behind me, I will have to try matching her if the Hall succeeds." Suddenly, her shoulders slumped, and her face broke close to tears. "What can I do, Siuan? I am caught like a fox in a trap, and I cannot even chew off my own foot to escape."
I'm not convinced Moiraine will be permanently Elayne's advisor, but I'm pretty sure there will be at least one time in AMOL where she will help Elayne. She knows all too well what Elayne is facing and at Elayne's age it made her want to cry.

Elayne's own entourage is probably not yet devoid of DF among the HS or their retinue, and she just added to the mix the Cairhienin High Seats.

And as you know, I believe Demandred and a whole cohort of Murandians are about to enter the mix.

I don't think Jordan decided Elayne would get the most dangerous of his nations to rule right before Tarmon Gai'don began without having an intention to have this play a role during the LB.

I could even see Rand asking Moiraine and Thom to help Elayne manage her little Empire.

Last edited by Dom; 12-22-2012 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 12-22-2012, 09:15 PM
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But all for the Dragon's sake.
How is that different from Thom?

Quote:
In New Spring, she rather said that:
I know what she said. I addressed that several times throughout this thread. She was young and innocent at the time, and she has stooped to worse as an Aes Sedai.

PS—Finally remembered where this bit was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDR
In spite of himself Perrin hunched his shoulders as if she were delivering real blows. "Well, you had better be glad I opened my mouth this time. Simion knows you're Aes Sedai. He wants you to Heal his brother Noam of some sickness. If I hadn't talked to him, he would never have worked up nerve enough to ask, but he might have started talking among his friends."

Lan caught Moiraine's eye, and for a moment they stared at one another. The Warder had the air about him of a wolf about to leap. Finally, Moiraine shook her head. "No," she said.

"As you wish. It is your decision." Lan sounded as if he thought she had made the wrong one, but the tension left him.

Perrin stared at them. "You were thinking of... Simion couldn't tell anyone if he were dead, could he?"

"He will not die by my actions," Moiraine said. "But I cannot, and will not, promise that it will always be so. We must find Rand, and I will not fail in that. Is that spoken plainly enough for you?" Caught in her gaze, Perrin could make no answer. She nodded as if his silence were answer enough.
That makes it clear enough that Lan has killed on Moiraine's behalf before, for mere inconveniences. Siuan suggested the same for Nicola and Areina, and Egwene was horrified, but methinks Moiraine is rather practiced at it.
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@Terez27

Last edited by Terez; 12-22-2012 at 10:27 PM.
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