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  #41  
Old 12-18-2012, 01:23 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Ploot Armor.. Good Term

I know what you mean. While I would not say that the heroes have not been in dangerous, life threatening spots, for example, Mat was NOT having a good time at Carhein.

I think that there is another reason as well. Most multi-book stories are still kept ususally to three or four books, so in the early books we had a greater impression of imminent danger, and the Characters were still reletively inexperienced so a single fist of trollocs are huge odds, especailly if you have no reinforcements. By books five and six, we see that this was going to be a long epic, so it becomes less of will the character survive to how will the character accomplish his goal in the end, especially with all of the obsticles thrown in his was, and for me, it became almost what will happen next, and how will x issue be resolved.

Some of my biggest questions have not been about Rand, or at least totally. I wonder if Rand and Galad will face each other as half-brothers. Galad's skill as a swordsman was so hyped, I wonder who me will face off with at TG. Butagain, he is a General now, and a general who trades his Baton for a sword becomes just another soldier.

The journey is not just about the destination, it is also about the trip.
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  #42  
Old 12-18-2012, 08:22 PM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
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Default ter'angreal too

The two best ideas RJ had to rig the plot was introducing the concepts of ta'veren and ter'angreal.

By explaining ta'veren, he had a way to include implausible events and explain them away satisfactorily. By making Mat even more implausibly ta'veren with ridiculous good luck, portrayed with a wink and nudge because he knows it's ridculous, the other ta'veren effects seem downright reasonable in comparison.

However, I suspect that we've been accustomed to the Pattern and ta'veren pulling our heroes out of danger intentionally. In the Last Battle, Min's admonition will come true and we'll learn that ta'veren can't correct enough, especially when the Pattern is rent by balefire. The advantage we've become used to will be suddenly lost, and that plot armor will be shed.

RJ wrote for the long term, parsimoniously advancing the plot. If he intended to pull the rug out from under us, it would be characteristic of him to wait until the last possible moment to do so. Because the prophecies demand the Last Battle, removing the plot armor may not have been as effective any earlier in the story.

Ter'angreal were the other brilliant invention. Reread the chapter in The Dragon Reborn when he introduces them. Verin explains in detail about angreal, sa'angreal, and other highly educated uses of the One Power. Then she casually metions that ter'angreal are magic black boxes that can do anything, letting the reader assign her knowledge to something that is never really explained. Later, when a wild array of ter'angreal are introduced, they piggyback on the perceived insight that the reader thinks they received. Bloody brilliant.

Algarin's manor served many purposes, but most of all it was to establish that everything we had seen so far was small in comparison to what is to come. It had to be easy because later we won't believe the heroes have a chance of success unless we have context for a handful of channelers standing against tens of thousands of opponents.


Tam, nice to see you again!
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  #43  
Old 12-20-2012, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
Actually, neither of these was the first time that Rand demonstrated an ability to exterminate* an inordinate number of Trollocs:

And, as I notice once again, in this case too he risked killing himself too soon if he focused on the wrong target.

* Is Rand the Dalek Reborn?
Not to mention the thousands of trollocs he killed in Eye of the World when he was totally untrained.
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  #44  
Old 12-28-2012, 09:58 AM
klye klye is offline
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Originally Posted by Tamyrlin View Post
That's a nice way to look at the Wheel and Threads.

We see some of that with the blinding of the Dragon, the purposeless hunts pushing back Perrin's realization of his Talents, Fain's influence on Egwene, and the obvious influence on the Dark One on Mat...ok, that's just plain immaturity (which in and of itself is a nice play on the traditional devil made me do it mentality).
Whats the darks one influence on matt? Where did egwene become effected by fain? I seem to remember fain meeting egwene... but I dont recall him caring at all about her...
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  #45  
Old 12-28-2012, 10:05 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Originally Posted by klye View Post
Whats the darks one influence on matt?
Good question. RJ has said that Mat having "the DO's own luck" has more truth to it than Mat would like, but that doesn't really tell us what the relationship is. It doesn't even tell us whether or not the DO approves of Mat using his luck.

Quote:
Where did egwene become effected by fain? I seem to remember fain meeting egwene... but I dont recall him caring at all about her...
Oh, they're just casual acquaintances, nothing more serious than that. She did visit him quite a few times while he was busy corrupting jailers in Fal Dara, though.
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  #46  
Old 12-28-2012, 04:56 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Good Points

Point one.. I agree that the whole “angreal” family concept was a brilliant way to introduce and explain ways that various characters could do things without actually having to explain it. After all, we all KNOW that ter’angeal do specific things with the OP, and therefore take it for granted. So now, if something not quite covered pops up.. voila.. “Ima Channaler” presents a ter’angreal that fits the bill. Need more of the OP? “Ima Channaler” shows up with a Angreal/ Sa’angreal and all of a sudden the character is channeling like they just drank a combo of Red Bull, a Monster (another stupid energy drink that we goofey American’s use), a 5-hour energy shot, six shots of espresso, and three hits of Meth.

Point two: Introducing the Taveren concept was another great way to explain how circumstances that should have been overwhelming could fall in line for our heros. As the story got longer and longer, we became more used to it. I do believe, as it is mentioned above, that it is not infallible and that there will be some tragic happenings.

Point three Dark One’s Own Luck? The DO letting Mat use his luck, or Mat doing it inadvertently??? I do not think so.. at least the way that yall are suggesting. This is making it sound like the DO has a pool of luck, much like the TP and Rand, and that Matt is tied into it, with or without the DO’s consent. While Mat is incredibly lucky beyond belief, I believe that this is more of the Taveren twisty twisting than actually power that Mat is accessing. Afterall, Rand’s Taveren-ness affects random chance as well, but in a more balanced way, and if affects others rather than himself… such as baskets of bread being spilt and landing upright, in a circle.
While Egwene did dream of Mat dicing with the DO, I think that was more specific to that plot line of his “wager” with Gabril, than Mat tapping into the DO.
As far as the term, “the DO’s own luck”.. it is just a saying as part of the overall story background, just like other “today” sayings that have been slightly altered to fit into and give reference to something that the reader would recognize.. ie, rain while the sun is shining “the Devil beating his wife = the DO beating Semirhage”

Last edited by Lost One; 12-28-2012 at 04:57 PM. Reason: Easier reading
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  #47  
Old 12-28-2012, 05:26 PM
Lost One Lost One is offline
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Default Another point

I am not sure if this should be continued here, or on its own thread, but I am lazy so here it is.

Point four: (LOL, finally). This was something that had been bothering me for the past.. oh five books or so. I had always seen the Last Battle as more of a philosophic term to describe the final war between the DO and the forces of Light that would result in the DO’s Prison being resealed so that people could forget about him as well as the end of the 3rd Age. Part of this is my own military experience and knowing that a conflict is never settled with just one battle. I mean the War of the Power that ended the AOL, lasted 10+ years. The Trolloc Wars lasted X-years as well. So unless every Trolloc, Fade, Darkhound, Dragkar, and other Shadowspawned creation as well as human Darkfriend Armies from all over the world, show up at once with every person on the side of the Light showing up at the same place; this war will be going on for some time, even if Rand and company defeat the Chosen, major dreadlords from amongst the B/Ajah and B/Ashamen, and re-seal the prison.

I have been waiting for major Light/Shadow battles, such as one mentioned in historical context such as the fall of Manetheran, or other events done by the Chosen in the past.. ie feed a city to trollocs. But now, we have one book left.. JUST ONE.. for all of this to happen. Granted, we have had one large scale incursion (Algarin’s Manor) and the beginning of the invasion on multi-fronts (Caemlyn & the Borderlands), in the past 14 books (including A New Spring). Eight thousand, three hundred and ninety-nine pages… and we are only now getting to major conflicts.

I do not think that I am the only fan that is interested in how the world and nations will be reshaped. Which nations will fall? Which will rise? What will be the aftermath? Who will survive and what roles will they have in the world after the 2nd breaking? Even if the LB is finished, or at least Rand’s part and the prison is repaired (though how will this be confirmed, and how long will it take to confirm it) 2/3 of the way through.. it will still take at least 1/3 of the book to tie up loose ends in even a most vague of an acceptable manner.. or else we will all be left scratching our heads saying, “that’s it”. .. Kind of like the first time a person has sex.. all the build up.. the anticipation, ten minutes or so of fumbling, then “uh.. what now?” (yeah.. go ahead and pretend it was not like that if you want to..lol).

I will admit I have a lot of expectations for AMoL. There are separate plots that have to come together, for example, Rand and Galad. We have a LB with three sides: Good Guys, Shadow Friends and creatures, and PF’s side, along with intro-ing new character types with the Red Aiel (personally, not a fan of. It should have been done earlier or not at all). With all respect to RJ and BS, I honestly do not know if they can be met.

Do the rest of you have the same concerns?
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