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  #101  
Old 04-11-2014, 08:49 PM
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Weird Harold Weird Harold is online now
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Originally Posted by Great Lord of the Dark View Post
Ha ha ha Weird Harold, I find instead it is the addition of Calian and Shivan that overcomplicates a simple Nakomi = Tigraine theory.
That, too.
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  #102  
Old 04-12-2014, 04:41 AM
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I have been trying to transcribe today's Q&A, but there were a bunch of shitfaced people in the lobby all night, including one dude who was acting out scenes from AMOL at the top of his lungs. (Others were applauding him.) Hours later, the security guard and his roommate finally got him to go to bed, not before he had terrorized a few people, including taking off his shirt and offering to fight.

Anyway, the gist of Brandon's answers: RJ did write the woman in the coming-out-of-the-mountain scene. Brandon is not sure if he changed her physical description or not, but he says that if he did change anything about the scene, it would have been that. I'm not sure exactly what it means but perhaps a transcript will make it more clear. He says that the "deep in the notes" thing was Brandon digging in the notes to try to figure out who the woman in that scene was supposed to be. He didn't say "And then I decided to use her with Aviendha" but since he's said he pitched that whole Aviendha sequence, it would seem obvious that's what happened.

I also asked him how he could be sure that the powers Nakomi displayed with Aviendha weren't the same as Rand's new powers if he didn't know anything more about the pipe than the fans do. He said it's because he knows what Nakomi was doing and he's sure it can't be what Rand was doing. There's more to that answer, which I will type up eventually, but my impression was that (as we suspected) Aviendha was actually asleep, and Nakomi entered her dream. We don't know of any other Heroes doing that, but it would make the most sense with the options available.

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Originally Posted by Dom View Post
Shivan is in TAR, and would be tied to Isam and thus through him would still have a role in the real world, but Luc is still dead.

We don't know enough how the Slayer combo works, but if we go with the hypothesis that Isam is alive and Luc is dead but the Dark One managed to tied them beyond death... it could explain where Slayer's "TAR characteristics" came from. Shivan's soul, since Luc's death, would belong in TAR, with the Hero's thread to the Wheel.

Let's say he has that. It's established that dead Heroes can leave TAR in the flesh for the real world: they do that after a fashion by the agency of the Horn about which we know not much. They don't seem normally alive, and are immune to the OP and presumably to other deaths.

But Birgitte could also do it through something Moghedien did - something which contrary to her belief did not cut her Hero bond to the Wheel, but to remain alive she had to be bonded to Elayne's life thread, and like Moridin/Rand and Luc/Isam, "dead" Brigitte and living Elayne began to feel each other's emotions and sensations... It might work loosely the same for Isam: he doesn't have Luc's memories or conscience, but he can feel what he feels etc. What if the DO found a way to do something similar to Shivan (and had started the process for Rand/Moridin), whose death might have taken place at SG, by tying him with a TP bond to Isam's life-thread, but also found a way to teach Slayer, or give him the power, to re-enter/exit TAR in the flesh as Wolfbrothers do. Exiting TAR in his Luc or Isam or possibly another appearance altogether (which I surmise might be quite possible) would be strictly a matter of will/concentration.
For the record, RJ said that Slayer's only choices are Luc and Isam, though that might only be because of his perception of the possible. RJ also said that the quirks of the Elayne-Birgitte bond were because of the gender pairing (and men are different, in a different way).

I had a bunch of other stuff to say about the above, but after the long night of drunk people, all I can say is that I agree with most of it, which is lame because you already knew that. Just saying, it wasn't my intention to just nitpick it.

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Jordan said this Third Age didn't differ from previous ones...
Another nitpick...he said it differed in the details, but not in the overall structure, so that it looks like the same tapestry only from a distance. I think there is room in that for the merge being a new experiment.
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  #103  
Old 04-12-2014, 06:04 AM
Great Lord of the Dark Great Lord of the Dark is offline
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Default So Tigraine!

Brandon's answers support that this was an intentional and important part of the ending, so I continue to think that Rand's Mother is the only correct person of meaning who fits, where the answer might be deep in the notes.

Nakomi and the woman at the end don't have to be the same character, but why have two mystery Aiel women when one will do.

Here's what my blog had to say about Aviendha and Nakomi's encounter:

Aviendha doesn’t tell anyone that she has traveled some distance from Rhuidean so that she can run the last stretch to get there. She meets an Aiel woman named Nakomi, who bizarrely appears as though from nowhere and vanishes just as mysteriously, after leaving Aviendha with some troubling thoughts to ponder. The manner of her abrupt departure despite Aviendha’s keen senses and tracking vaguely implies a greater purpose to her appearance, rather than a random encounter. Aviendha doesn’t dwell on her words much after, so the reader is left to wonder whether this was a dream, a time-disjointing hallucination brought on by burning brush, a visit from a more knowledgeable person such as another Wise One, a Forsaken, an Aes Sedai, or a future Aviendha, or worst of all, a divine intervention. I cross my fingers for random encounter, because Aviendha could have had these thoughts on her own with no need for mysterious old women.

Aviendha contemplates Rhuidean, the future of the Aiel, and both her and her people’s relationship with Rand. The offhand way in which she reflects on Nakomi’s words before reaching the exact same conclusions on her own reinforces that Nakomi was no one special, just a scene added to make Aviendha’s reflections on these matters seem more believable to readers.
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  #104  
Old 04-13-2014, 07:54 AM
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Another weird thought--if Nakomi is Tigraine/Calian and she represents the ending of an age, could it be true that Calian is ALWAYS the mother of the Dragon soul?
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  #105  
Old 04-13-2014, 03:37 PM
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Another weird thought--if Nakomi is Tigraine/Calian and she represents the ending of an age, could it be true that Calian is ALWAYS the mother of the Dragon soul?
1 Hero of the Horn giving birth to another in order to herald a new age?

Sounds plausible.
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  #106  
Old 04-14-2014, 03:09 AM
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I sort of doubt that, as we've never heard anything at all about LTT's mother. If she had been as noticeable as Tigraine/Shaiel, she would have merited at least some kind of mention, one would think.
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  #107  
Old 04-14-2014, 12:36 PM
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I sort of doubt that, as we've never heard anything at all about LTT's mother. If she had been as noticeable as Tigraine/Shaiel, she would have merited at least some kind of mention, one would think.
Not necessarily, as we have heard precious few things about LTT's life and those who surrounded him, but the events marking the beginning of the end for each Age, to which we might try to associate Shivan or Calian, are probably different anyway. Rand's birth was such mostly because it could be related to the beginning of the fulfillment of the Karaethon Cycle.

In the AOL, a more obvious event to mark the beginning of the end for the Age would be the drilling of the Bore, not Lews Therin's birth.
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  #108  
Old 04-14-2014, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by GonzoTheGreat View Post
I sort of doubt that, as we've never heard anything at all about LTT's mother. If she had been as noticeable as Tigraine/Shaiel, she would have merited at least some kind of mention, one would think.
Not necessarily. We know about Tigraine/Shaiel only through personal stories. Its not like she is generally well known. She's kind of a footnote in Andoran history.
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  #109  
Old 04-15-2014, 03:27 AM
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Not necessarily. We know about Tigraine/Shaiel only through personal stories. Its not like she is generally well known. She's kind of a footnote in Andoran history.
Just like the death of Franz Ferdinand was just a footnote in Austro-Hungarian history?
Besides, Tigraine's disappearance also sparked off the Cairhienin trouble, which led directly to the Aiel War.

So both in Andor and elsewhere did at least some people notice what had happened to her and what came of that.

In contrast, there is no indication at all of what choice LTT's mother could possibly have had to make that would have had similar effects. That doesn't mean it can't have happened, but I don't think we should assume it did simply because there is no evidence at all.
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  #110  
Old 04-15-2014, 09:33 PM
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Just like the death of Franz Ferdinand was just a footnote in Austro-Hungarian history?
Besides, Tigraine's disappearance also sparked off the Cairhienin trouble, which led directly to the Aiel War.
That is an excellent comparison, actually. And just as most people don't think "Franz Ferdinand" when they think "World War I", I don't think most people will point to Tigraine when they think of the Aiel war. Dyelin did, but she knew these details intimately.

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So both in Andor and elsewhere did at least some people notice what had happened to her and what came of that.
Sure. But will such details survive for 3000 years after many civilization spanning wars?

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In contrast, there is no indication at all of what choice LTT's mother could possibly have had to make that would have had similar effects. That doesn't mean it can't have happened, but I don't think we should assume it did simply because there is no evidence at all.
But that's my point. Tigraine's actions are already a footnote 20 years after she disappeared. How about 3000 years later? Why would people remember?
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  #111  
Old 04-15-2014, 10:19 PM
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That is an excellent comparison, actually. And just as most people don't think "Franz Ferdinand" when they think "World War I", I don't think most people will point to Tigraine when they think of the Aiel war. Dyelin did, but she knew these details intimately.
Funny, when you say "Franz Ferdinand" pretty much the only response for that word association you will EVER get is "World War One".

Just sayin'.
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  #112  
Old 04-16-2014, 04:06 AM
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But that's my point. Tigraine's actions are already a footnote 20 years after she disappeared. How about 3000 years later? Why would people remember?
Because she got a chapter of her own in Loial's book on the life of the Dragon. And (mind, this is a bit speculative right now) because the Sharans made her into their great national hero, seeing as they didn't have any better options.
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  #113  
Old 04-17-2014, 12:02 AM
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Default The many faces of Kali

Getting back to Nakomi, I think its instructive to understand a bit about Kali and Shiva to see how all this fits (I admit to being a full convert now to the Tigraine=Kalian, Luc=Shivan theory).

Kali is the destructive aspect of Parvati, who is the "supreme mother Goddess" in Hinduism. She's the mother of two gods: one, Muruga, is the god of War and the Commander of the armies of the gods. The other is Ganesh, which was, incidentally, the nickname of RJ in the Navy. Ganesh is the lord and remover of obstacles, and the god of beginnings.

Parvati creates Ganesh out of clay, in most myths, echoing the "virgin birth" theme that we see with Tigraine (the Maiden). She then asks him to stand guard while she bathes. Shiva, her husband, demands entry, and Ganesh refuses. Shiva then beheads him after an intense battle.

When Parvati learns of this, she threatens to destroy the entire universe (taking on her many destructive aspects, Kali being the foremost of those). To place her, Shiva looks about and notices an elephant that has survived her destructive rage, and uses its head to revive Ganesh, thus giving him his iconic elephant head.

Note the inversions here. Rand is guarding the world from the Dark One. Shivan/Slayer is trying to kill him to allow the Dark One entry.

Kalian/Nakomi (which means grandmother, incidentally) only comes in at the end to tell her son how to survive, which is achieved by him merging with Moridin (who is not an elephant, of course...). Ganesh, incidentally, has three wives in some Hindu traditions.

As for Shiva, there's one story that has some bearing here. In the Mahabharatha, one of the main characters, Arjuna (an archer, like Rand), meditates on Shiva so he can obtain Shiva's weapon/missile. To test Arjuna, Shiva comes disguised as a hunter, and challenges Arjuna to a hunting contest, which Arjuna loses.

So there's definitely a hunter motif connected to Shiva, too. He's also depicted wearing a crescent moon on his hair, and is associated with the moon.

I don't know how much of Hindu mythology RJ knew (and there's quite a bit of conflicting stuff I left out for brevity), but I think its a fair bet he knew some of this, at least. He certainly knew of Ganesh, so it isn't a stretch that he read up on his parents.
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  #114  
Old 04-21-2014, 11:33 PM
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Funny, when you say "Franz Ferdinand" pretty much the only response for that word association you will EVER get is "World War One".

Just sayin'.
Dunno..."Take Me Out" might be up there.
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  #115  
Old 04-22-2014, 11:17 AM
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No no no, Suttree.

This is the song that comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgR5...e_gdata_player
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  #116  
Old 04-22-2014, 12:48 PM
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No no no, Suttree.

This is the song that comes to mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgR5...e_gdata_player
Nice one.
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