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  #41  
Old 03-20-2014, 02:01 PM
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I emailed Brandon right after I posted earlier about his response, and he wrote me right back. I gave him two quotes:

TFOH 14
"None of them have seen you?" she asked anxiously. Birgitte was more vulnerable than herself in many ways, despite her knowledge of Tel'aran'rhiod. She had never been able to channel; any of the Forsaken could destroy her as if crushing an ant, without breaking stride. And if she were destroyed here, there would be no rebirth for her ever again.

TSR 52
Cain ignored Nynaeve as though she did not exist. "The precepts exist for a reason, Birgitte. Nothing but strife and trouble has ever come from breaking them."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon
I had completely forgotten that. So there IS an unbinding method. You just can't live through it.

For what it is worth, I am reasonably certain there is nothing in the notes about Noal being an old hero. [...] But maybe someone can find something in the notes at the library to be certain.
Edited to fix a really terrible phonetic typo.
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  #42  
Old 03-30-2014, 04:54 PM
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I can buy the way the merging of Moridin/Rand works.

I could fit it with my conviction that the Dark One acted intentionally at Shadar Logoth, grabbing control of the True Power directly through Ishamael to initiate the "merging" (which I still think began with ordering Ishamael to inflict to Rand his "True Power" wound in Falme).

I like how it parallel my ideas not only on how Slayer was made, but also on Slayer having been a kind of prototype for what Shai'tan could do to make Rand serve him "even in death", after his life thread had been cut and his soul had gone back to join the other Heroes in tel'aran'rhiod while still being tied to Moridin's physical body: Moridin like Isam would have been able to switch appearance at will and as Rand fooling the world he was still alive, help free his master.

There could have been downsides to the tactic, which would explain why Shai'tan preferred him to serve alive.

As for Tigraine being Nakomi and thus Nakomi being "the Chooser" (and thus an even more ancient incarnation of the Hero now known by the name of Callian. It was never explained why the WO knew the name Nakomi, but she spoke as if it belonged to very ancient oral legends of the Aiel), it's a really attractive theory that would explain a lot of things.

To summarize my Shivan/Calian ideas, I think Shivan's last role as "destroyer of what had been" was to hunt down and kill Janduin who was once to unite the Aiel, making way for Calian's son, the birth of what was to be.

Tigraine was the Chooser, and her choice of self-sacrifice heralded Rand's.

I never liked the notion that the brother-sister Heroes were Elayne's twins, because there's really no point in having Heroes "destroy" the Third Age or give birth to the Fourth 20+ years after the Last Battle. In my mind heralds have to have appeared before the Third Age died, and they came to announce/trigger its death. Thus it makes perfect sense to me that they played their roles not beyond the series's ending but as agents of the Wheel connected to Rand's birth, the event that heralded and sealed the upcoming end of the Third Age by beginning the fulfillment of the Karaethon Cycle prophecies, as well as the Aiel prophecies.

The other thing that always puzzled me is the clue given by RJ that Calian and Shivan are somewhat disguised, as their traditional appearance is masked (in black for Shivan, in red for Calian). That fits Tigraine/Shaiel, Luc who became Isam like a glove.

There remains one thing that bugs me about Tigraine as Nakomi, though: how could she appear to Aviendha near Rhuidean if she is a dead HoH? I guess this could be a contrivance by Brandon for which he no doubt devised some explanation that works for him, but it's hard to puzzle it out. From the name he gave the character (Nakomi in native American legends is the inventor of Dream Catchers) it's highly possible that Brandon conceived of Nakomi has having special, perhaps unique, tel'aran'rhiod powers that let her achieve what she did.

As for the appearance of Heroes, I'm not sure why everyone seems so convinced this is set by rules. They come from TAR, and no doubt they adopt there the appearance of their choice, which for most of them is probably neither their last nor their most well known (they're not even supposed to show themselves to the living...) but rather most likely at first after death it's their most recent appearance that dominate their mind, but gradually they come to intuitively perceive themselves as an aggregate of selves, and thus their most natural appearance after some time spent in TAR with all their memories as one life is probably something that might be called "archetypal" and that reflects their most dominant traits. That said, I'm virtually convinced their appearance when the Horn calls is similar to the choice made by Slayer as he steps in/out of TAR: sometimes it's a conscious decision to adopt an appearance, sometimes their subconscious chooses for them.

Thus I have no problem with Calian the Chooser being capable to appear as an old Aiel woman in the real world if she chose to. I'm still puzzled as to how she could appear in the real world to Aviendha, though. The chapter left little room to believe Aviendha had fallen asleep and met Nakomi in her dreams.. unless Nakomi has the power to triggers a dream state in people who are awake and to fool them it's real...
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  #43  
Old 03-30-2014, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom View Post
As for Tigraine being Nakomi and thus Nakomi being "the Chooser" (and thus an even more ancient incarnation of the Hero now known by the name of Callian. It was never explained why the WO knew the name Nakomi, but she spoke as if it belonged to very ancient oral legends of the Aiel), it's a really attractive theory that would explain a lot of things.

To summarize my Shivan/Calian ideas, I think Shivan's last role as "destroyer of what had been" was to hunt down and kill Janduin who was once to unite the Aiel, making way for Calian's son, the birth of what was to be.

Tigraine was the Chooser, and her choice of self-sacrifice heralded Rand's.
I wondered if Brandon's choice of words here was deliberate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMOL Epilogue
He could . . . see, just faintly. A figure kneeling down beside him. "Yes," a woman whispered. He did not recognize the voice. "Yes, that's good. That is what you need to do."

He blinked, his vision fuzzy. Was that Aiel clothing? An old woman, with gray hair? Her form retreated, and Rand reached toward her, not wanting to be alone. Wanting to explain himself. "I see the answer now," he whispered. "I asked the Aelfinn the wrong question. To choose is our fate. If you have no choice, then you aren't a man at all. You're a puppet . . ."
And why does she know what he has to do? Maybe because, now that her brother is finally at peace, she knows what he knows. And maybe showing Moridin how it was done was Luc's most important role to play in the Last Battle; teaching Perrin how to use his skills was just a bonus.

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The other thing that always puzzled me is the clue given by RJ that Calian and Shivan are somewhat disguised, as their traditional appearance is masked (in black for Shivan, in red for Calian). That fits Tigraine/Shaiel, Luc who became Isam like a glove.
I noticed that too. The Hunter symbolism is very strong with Luc.

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There remains one thing that bugs me about Tigraine as Nakomi, though: how could she appear to Aviendha near Rhuidean if she is a dead HoH?
I thought of it as being a byproduct of the loosening Pattern. And even after the Bore was sealed, the Pattern should still have been thinnest there.
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  #44  
Old 03-31-2014, 06:19 AM
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Also, Brandon said that RJ wrote the scene where Rand comes out of the mountain, which never quite jived with his implication that Nakomi was his own addition (based on something "deep in the notes"). So it may be that RJ wrote Rand's words and Brandon inserted Nakomi into the scene. It may also be that RJ's note was more explicit, about Calian paying Rand a visit, but it would seem strange for Brandon to phrase it that way if RJ had already written her in the above-quoted scene. But I remember Peter saying that Brandon had filled him in and it was rather more explicit than he expected, so maybe Brandon merely changed the name and the physical description so that he could use her with Aviendha.

The idea that the Dark One was aware of the heroes and their afterlife is not really new, since Moghedien was able to recognize Teadra, but I do wonder if the red veils were somehow related to Calian's red mask. It would seem to fit His sense of irony.
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  #45  
Old 03-31-2014, 11:20 AM
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Also, Brandon said that RJ wrote the scene where Rand comes out of the mountain, which never quite jived with his implication that Nakomi was his own addition (based on something "deep in the notes").
I've wondered about that too, and I thought it might not be impossible that what Brandon found "deep in the notes" was alternate identities of the Hero Callian over the Ages, one of which was Nakomi (which very loosely fits with Kali, also as a sort of light counterpart to Lanfear - a kind of crone incarnation of Egwene).


From there, and knowing from RJ's notes that the mysterious woman dressed as an Aiel who came to visit Rand at SG was his mother "Shaiel" and the Hero Calian, who came to bring a close to a sequence that started with the death of Shivan (also a scene mirroring an earlier scene as RJ constantly did, here a return to the EOTW scene with Kari's apparition to Rand, no longer with a "save me" angle but "save yourself, yes, yes, here's the choice you have to make".) To further echo that scene (an nod to a maiden who became a kind of WO) Brandon decided it would be nice to have her also appear to guide Aviendha, in a similar if less literal way toward the right decision for the death/rebirth/transmigration of the Aiel (while not really having the final answer to give her, just some wisdom), the beginning of their destruction/transformation" having been set in motion by Shaiel too. Again, it's all a matter of making a choice.

Brandon might also have made this compromise of re using RJ's Calian/Tigraine as an Aiel woman in another scene with Aviendha, but because RJ left a note that the identities of Luc/Shivan and Tigraine/Calian shouldn't be revealed, Brandon couldn't be too blatant about her (like dressing her as a maiden and leaving her unnamed...), so he made her appear old, and crafted an alternative identity for Calian as Nakomi, based on something related or not to Calian which he found in the notes (it could be related to the fact she's a masked hero, who is often not what she appears to be, or remains hidden), for instance a reference to a very ancient hero of the Aiel, a Dreamer who taught the WO to use TAR in the first Age, which he decided to transform into an alternate identity of the HoH Calian.

But the more I think of it, the more it seems to me that Nakomi being one way or another related to Nakomi makes a lot of sense. To play the devil's advocate, it could only be that Brandon crafted her to be completementary, though Nakomi being Tigraine works much better. Tigraine would be her Elayne counterpart, Shaiel was her Aviendha counterpart, and Nakomi was her Min counterpart. The three phases of the moon goddess in one character, thus echoing the evil moon goddess triad in Selene/Lanfear/Silvie, heavily involved with Isam in those scenes. We had the dark version, it ends with the apparition of the Light's version with the Crone Nakomi.
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  #46  
Old 04-02-2014, 08:50 PM
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Does that name mean anything?

Those that played Twin Towers, did not Imram's niece go by that name?

I assume it is a coincidence. Or that I have the names wrong, or Nakomi is a more common name then I know.
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  #47  
Old 04-03-2014, 12:04 AM
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It comes from Nokomis.
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  #48  
Old 04-03-2014, 12:09 AM
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Amusingly, bossman posted this Nakomi theory a while back, and then named it loony:

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=7205

Technically, he explained it in different ways—Mirror Worlds, rather than Hero of the Horn—but he still gets credit as the first to seriously propose it here, I think.
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  #49  
Old 04-04-2014, 12:44 PM
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...though Nakomi being Tigraine works much better. Tigraine would be her Elayne counterpart, Shaiel was her Aviendha counterpart, and Nakomi was her Min counterpart. The three phases of the moon goddess in one character, thus echoing the evil moon goddess triad in Selene/Lanfear/Silvie, heavily involved with Isam in those scenes. We had the dark version, it ends with the apparition of the Light's version with the Crone Nakomi.
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Old 05-06-2014, 08:50 PM
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Just wanted to say that I found confirmation in RJ's notes that the name Birgitte came from a life she lived around the Compact of the Ten Nations, so shortly after 200 AB. She has lived as recently as about 500 years ago, with another name. I could detail how many lives she's lived exactly since the Breaking but I'm hoping that info will be in the Encyclopedia.
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Old 05-06-2014, 09:29 PM
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Just wanted to say that I found confirmation in RJ's notes that the name Birgitte came from a life she lived around the Compact of the Ten Nations, so shortly after 200 AB. She has lived as recently as about 500 years ago, with another name. I could detail how many lives she's lived exactly since the Breaking but I'm hoping that info will be in the Encyclopedia.
So essentially the Heroes pick the form they want, or stick to the one that is most iconic/well known, right?
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  #52  
Old 05-06-2014, 09:46 PM
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He doesn't say. I'm guessing the most recognizable.
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Old 05-06-2014, 10:20 PM
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By the way, later he lists her lives without her most recent one, perhaps because there is a bit to contradict it in the books.
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Old 05-06-2014, 11:19 PM
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By the way, later he lists her lives without her most recent one, perhaps because there is a bit to contradict it in the books.
Her not knowing about Andor, etc.?
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  #55  
Old 05-12-2014, 10:47 AM
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I still haven't found much helpful concerning this theory in the notes, though it seems unlikely he had this in mind back in TGH. That goes for a lot of things...he was constantly building on his ideas to make a better story, and he often tried to use things he'd introduced in the early books, which meant working things out further than he had in the early books. We all knew this happened to an extent, but I was a little surprised by how fluid some things were.

I just wanted to say that it occurred to me to wonder if Moghedien's "good by accident" didn't have something to do with her discovering how to recognize heroes in the flesh. If RJ did decide to go this way, he would have started working it out somewhere around ACOS. This is where he planted the Min viewing that mirrors Slayer in the TGH dark prophecy. This is where Rand and Moridin were linked together: the location of Shadar Logoth seems to be confirmed in the notes, if not the mechanism, but again, RJ tended to change things at will so long as he hadn't been too concrete yet in the books.

If he was considering Rand's peculiar immortality while writing ACOS, it might lend weight to the idea that the crushed Mindtrap was meant to foreshadow Moridin's fate.
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