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  #21  
Old 05-31-2014, 01:45 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rand al'Fain View Post
The knowledge wasn't completely lost, as Sorilea taught the weaves to Cadsuane. And we do know the Jenn Aiel had at least a handful of Aes Sedai that traveled with them, so most likely scenario is that the Aes Sedai with the Jenn Aiel passed along the knowledge to some Aiel Wise Ones in hopes that it could be used again someday.
Ummm... the source of Sorilea's knowledge was Egwene. I can't believe the number of people who have missed this.
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  #22  
Old 05-31-2014, 03:38 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Ummm... the source of Sorilea's knowledge was Egwene.
With some intermediaries.
Egwene taught Elayne. Elayne taught Aviendha. Aviendha taught the Dreamwalkers, and it was probably Amys who showed Sorilea (and others) how to do this.
It is conceivable that Egwene taught the Dreamwalkers herself, but I would doubt that. At least until some confirmation for this more direct route can be shown.
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  #23  
Old 05-31-2014, 08:03 AM
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TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue

She did not know most of the Wise Ones in the room, but one face jumped at her. Amys' prematurely white hair combined with features that appeared short of their middle years to give her something of the look of an Aes Sedai. She must have Traveled from Cairhien. Egwene had been teaching the dreamwalkers, to repay their teaching about Tel'aran'rhiod. And to meet a debt, she claimed, though she had never made clear what debt.
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  #24  
Old 05-31-2014, 09:02 AM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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TITLE: Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: Prologue

She did not know most of the Wise Ones in the room, but one face jumped at her. Amys' prematurely white hair combined with features that appeared short of their middle years to give her something of the look of an Aes Sedai. She must have Traveled from Cairhien. Egwene had been teaching the dreamwalkers, to repay their teaching about Tel'aran'rhiod. And to meet a debt, she claimed, though she had never made clear what debt.
Yup. And this has been going on for some time. That's why as far back as early tPoD, Verin and Cadsuane start noticing that the Wise Ones had picked up new skills. Egwene taught them linking and Traveling at the very least (not shielding as Verin speculates, since Amys shielded Egwene before).
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  #25  
Old 05-31-2014, 07:55 PM
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Ummm... the source of Sorilea's knowledge was Egwene. I can't believe the number of people who have missed this.
Yeah, that was pretty much a given...I cant believe someone didnt know that actually.
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  #26  
Old 05-31-2014, 08:29 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Yeah, that was pretty much a given...I cant believe someone didnt know that actually.
To be fair, I do think RJ intended this as a mystery... In book 8. Then he solved it in the prologue of book 9 with just one line, so I guess a lot of people never got it.

I do wonder if the Hall ever figured it out, though. Egwene pretty much gave away the Aes Sedai's only advantage over the Wise Ones, however slim it was. She absolutely did the right thing in light of the Last Battle (any number of Rand's schemes requiring moving the Aiel around wouldn't have been as easy to pull off otherwise), but she was distributing the Tower's jealously guarded knowledge as exchange for personal training.
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  #27  
Old 05-31-2014, 09:13 PM
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To be fair, I do think RJ intended this as a mystery... In book 8. Then he solved it in the prologue of book 9 with just one line, so I guess a lot of people never got it.

I do wonder if the Hall ever figured it out, though. Egwene pretty much gave away the Aes Sedai's only advantage over the Wise Ones, however slim it was. She absolutely did the right thing in light of the Last Battle (any number of Rand's schemes requiring moving the Aiel around wouldn't have been as easy to pull off otherwise), but she was distributing the Tower's jealously guarded knowledge as exchange for personal training.
To be fair, the Tower got Traveling only thanks to Egwene, and knowledge to use TAR because the WO were teaching Egwene who taught Elayne-Nynaeve who passed it on somewhat under pressure.

That's nothing compared to Elayne-Nynaeve bargaining all the WT OP knowledge to get the Windfinders to do what they should have done for free, since it was in their interest too to correct the weather. Elayne-Nynaeve grossly misunderstood they were the ones holding something the SF would give a lot to acquire.

Last edited by Dom; 05-31-2014 at 09:30 PM.
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  #28  
Old 05-31-2014, 11:26 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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To be fair, the Tower got Traveling only thanks to Egwene, and knowledge to use TAR because the WO were teaching Egwene who taught Elayne-Nynaeve who passed it on somewhat under pressure.
Yes, but I highly doubt the Tower has a "if you invented it, do with it as you want" attitude. And she certainly didn't invent linking, and whatever else she taught the WO.

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That's nothing compared to Elayne-Nynaeve bargaining all the WT OP knowledge to get the Windfinders to do what they should have done for free, since it was in their interest too to correct the weather. Elayne-Nynaeve grossly misunderstood they were the ones holding something the SF would give a lot to acquire.
Oh no doubt about that. They let their desperation show.
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  #29  
Old 06-01-2014, 03:19 AM
GonzoTheGreat GonzoTheGreat is offline
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Oh no doubt about that. They let their desperation show.
And forgot entirely that their whole purpose in starting this jaunt had been to find something that would tie the AS to Rand.
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  #30  
Old 06-01-2014, 05:22 PM
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Yes, but I highly doubt the Tower has a "if you invented it, do with it as you want" attitude. And she certainly didn't invent linking, and whatever else she taught the WO
Yeah, I just thought the Hall had much bigger fish to fry than wonder who of the sisters under WO "supervision"/serving Rand, Cadsuane and her group or (much less likely for them, they didn't suspect fully their relationship, nor knew that she kept meeting them) Egwene had taught a few things to the W.O., while discovery of the Bargain would have opened a whole other can of worms.

I think RJ's original intent for that was to have Merillile come reveal it to the Rebel Hall after Egwene's capture. Later on, the shock that the Windfinders would, essentially, come to know all the WT knew of the OP, would have served as an extra argument (more an excuse, really) for Egwene to convince the Hall that associating the SF and WO to the WT, and having them agree to take Accepted in training to balance things out was necessary (the WO on the argument that nothing stopped the SF from making another Bargain with them).

That's Jordan, btw. Maybe not all the details or how exactly it came about, but that was his general plan Brandon used for this. Egwene was to have her way for that (an agreement with the WO and the SF), and for her plans for AS retirement into the Kin. And the men wouldn't be any part of it at least for many years. There was no detail, though, just that it had to succeed.

Egwene's alliance against Rand was more clearly divided along gender lines in the notes (a straighter replay of the Fateful Concord, with even Nynaeve, Min, Elayne on Egwene's side, with the same crippling fear that made the Concord refuse to support a strike after it lost the Access Keys - RJ compared that to a deer stopping to move once caught in car lights in the middle of a road), though it's quite possible RJ altered that to something closer to the final divisions in later notes.

Last edited by Dom; 06-01-2014 at 05:32 PM.
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  #31  
Old 06-04-2014, 03:55 PM
Hugh the Hand Hugh the Hand is offline
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That would seem a departure from Min's character development.

Unless her character development was the original departure.

either way the parallel seems like a logical choice, but, Min seems out of character for her to disagree with Rand on such an important thing.

By the way, that would leave only Perrin as support for Rand from his inner circle.
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  #32  
Old 06-04-2014, 04:08 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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Yeah, I just thought the Hall had much bigger fish to fry than wonder who of the sisters under WO "supervision"/serving Rand, Cadsuane and her group or (much less likely for them, they didn't suspect fully their relationship, nor knew that she kept meeting them) Egwene had taught a few things to the W.O., while discovery of the Bargain would have opened a whole other can of worms.
I have no doubt the Hall took the WO's abilities as gained from the captive sisters, like Cadsuane and Verin did.
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I think RJ's original intent for that was to have Merillile come reveal it to the Rebel Hall after Egwene's capture. Later on, the shock that the Windfinders would, essentially, come to know all the WT knew of the OP, would have served as an extra argument (more an excuse, really) for Egwene to convince the Hall that associating the SF and WO to the WT, and having them agree to take Accepted in training to balance things out was necessary (the WO on the argument that nothing stopped the SF from making another Bargain with them).
I remember thinking the same about Merillile. I thought she'd bring Talaan as a sop to mitigate her disastrous performance with the Sea Folk (though she was no part of it, I doubt the Hall would care), and expose Elayne to the Hall. I was certain Lelaine's comments to Egwene about Elayne's political skills (in CoT) was triggered by a secret meeting with Merillile.

And I agree. Egwene would have used the setback to prod the Hall towards a more binding union with the WO and the WF.

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That's Jordan, btw. Maybe not all the details or how exactly it came about, but that was his general plan Brandon used for this. Egwene was to have her way for that (an agreement with the WO and the SF), and for her plans for AS retirement into the Kin. And the men wouldn't be any part of it at least for many years. There was no detail, though, just that it had to succeed.
I wonder if RJ ever played with the thought of the men being part of it too. He certainly left many avenues open, especially with Egwene freeing Logain.

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Egwene's alliance against Rand was more clearly divided along gender lines in the notes (a straighter replay of the Fateful Concord, with even Nynaeve, Min, Elayne on Egwene's side, with the same crippling fear that made the Concord refuse to support a strike after it lost the Access Keys - RJ compared that to a deer stopping to move once caught in car lights in the middle of a road), though it's quite possible RJ altered that to something closer to the final divisions in later notes.
This is interesting. The version we got kind of downplayed the fact that the Wise Ones were clearly on Egwene's side, and the Sea Folk were neutral at best, leaving Rand with very little clear female support.

Whoever changed it to its current form, I think it was a disservice to the story. It made Moiraine's role less critical, in a way. Moiraine was the one who, as far back as tGH, made it clear she would let the world burn so long as the Dragon succeeded. It would have been interesting to see a proper male vs. female conflict resolved by the same kind of compromise that was reached. It would have held more thematic depth, I feel (and there were Dreams to support such a case).
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  #33  
Old 06-04-2014, 04:15 PM
fionwe1987 fionwe1987 is offline
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That would seem a departure from Min's character development.
Not necessarily. All we need is a viewing to make her flip.

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By the way, that would leave only Perrin as support for Rand from his inner circle.
I'm more interested in how this would have played with respect to Cadsuane. She doesn't seem like the type to think the risk is too great. I wonder what RJ's thoughts were regarding that. As it is, I was surprised Caduane had nothing at all to say to Egwene. Sure, she'd have let Rand try his hand, but she's famous for setting Amyrlins straight if she disagrees with their views. The way the scene was written, she certainly seemed to be on Rand's side. But maybe she was happy to let this play out, and would have taken whatever the outcome was.
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